CCW can limit options

[Cousin Mike]

My scenario.

I think that the problem is that I have a complete situation in my head and I haven't let anyone else in on it as completely and totally as I should... Here's MY scenario, in the hopes that maybe if I type it ALL out, you might understand where I am coming from.

SO...

You and your wife are driving down the highway, having an argument about something. Let's say the bills. The argument gets heated. You're yelling at eachother. You pull over so that you don't wreck the car.

The arguing gets worse. Thw wife keeps bringing up stuff that you're not even talking about. You're trying to make a point. You don't have the money to pay for this bill, and it's serious. She refuses to listen. You get out of the car, because you need some air.

The wife continues to yell at you, saying whatever it is that she's saying, and so you throw the bills into the car and say something like "Well, damnit, you pay for it all then! I don't have the money!"

or whatever... if you're rich, and you don't argue about bills, think of something. If you have a woman, I'm sure you can think of SOMETHING you two have argued about in the car.

So... you throw the bills into the car and sit outside for a second to calm down. You notice a car turns around and approaches you. Some guy gets out of the car asking if you just hit your wife... You tell him to buzz off, and then he starts asking your wife, directly - as if he doesn't believe you. Now you've just had some guy you've never seen before basically accuse you of being a woman beater, and then try to get your wife to verify his assumptions.

You're not going to get angry at that kind of suggestion???

Bull...

You're already angry at her... So some stranger comes around suggesting that you're a wife beater, and you're already angry. You expect me to believe that you'd hold on to that temper of yours? Are you sure? What if you had a bad week at work? What if something else is wrong at home? What if this guy is confrontational in his approach, to top it all off?

So lets get off the self-righteous BS. It might be easy to try and make me sound like a caveman for admitting that certain things anger me, but maybe I'm just honest with myself. I have limits. Everyone does. It might be cool to come in a forum and talk like icewater runs through your veins, but most men aren't built to handle that kind of insult.

And if you'd never even consider hitting a woman, then being accused of doing just that is exactly how you would see that accusation... as an insult.

So...

You tell me... if that situation turns ugly - if a gun is drawn, or a fistfight breaks out - who was wrong? The man who intervened on a mistaken assumption, or the couple for defending themselves from an obviously mistaken and confrontational stranger with a gun and a can of pepper-spray?

I don't know about you, but my freedom is too precious to involve myself in something that potentially tragic on an assumption. There are too many variables in that situation - and as already said... If you have to ask yourself "...am I justified?"

...then you're probably not.

 

[DRMMR02]

"Let's not talk about this while I'm driving. That's dangerous" Then just stop talking until you get home.

And whether or not you expect yourself to act a certain way, doesn't make that way right. So you think that you might not be able to keep your cool in that situation? Then don't get in it. Knowing that you might get set off is just even more reason why it's NOT an appropriate defense.

 

[torpid]

But any man who is married or in a serious relationship knows that nothing can make a man angrier than a woman. Now add some guy in the mix who wants to "protect your wife" FROM YOU, and honestly... Whoever in here says that they could undoubtedly keep their cool in that situation is full of crap. Guns being in the mix just makes it all the more potentially tragic.

Thinking of public spaces here... if your heated arguments are sending signals out there that cause good intentioned folks to stop by to see if your s/o is okay, maybe these tips might help avoid attracting interventions from "good samaritans":


Stop to realize where you are and get a hold of yourself, since you are making a scene that is naturally a spectacle that draws attention.

Be composed enough to allow her time to assure folks she's fine so they can assess for themselves and walk away on their own.

Go someplace private to discuss it.


.

 

[Cousin Mike]

Understood, but this is not about relationship tactics. Arguments happen and they're not always avoidable, especially with your s/o. Older folks, people who've been in commited relationships for years, we know all this stuff... But, we had to learn it. Young couples, new couples, sometimes they aren't so great at practicing restraint. And sometimes even us well intentioned samaritans see things we didn't really see...

SO... In the case that all these mistakes have been made, who is right and who is wrong? And if you're the one with the CCW, do you want to leave all of this up to a jury to decide?

 

[torpid]

You're already angry at her... So some stranger comes around suggesting that you're a wife beater, and you're already angry. You expect me to believe that you'd hold on to that temper of yours? Are you sure? What if you had a bad week at work? What if something else is wrong at home? What if this guy is confrontational in his approach, to top it all off?

So lets get off the self-righteous BS...

If I was going off on a woman in public to the extent strangers think I might be an abuser, I'd be pretty damn embarassed, and would do my best to make sure they knew I wasn't violent.

.

 

[ezypikns]

If the guy had attacked you,

and you had fought over the weapon, and you had killed him, I don't believe there's any doubt that you would have been charged and convicted of at least manslaughter.
Even if he had been beating her and you had shot him to prevent it, I think the above statement would apply. I don't know about Maine, but I believe that in Texas, the only time you're justified in using deadly force is in meeting the same.
Of course what you did was right, and the pepper spray was the way to go, but you know, a concealed weapon license or permit doesn't make us cops. As a previous poster noted, even LEO's don't want to get into the middle of a domestic dispute. I'm glad the lady was OK, but more importantly, I'm glad you're OK.

 

[Cousin Mike]

We're not talking about going off on a woman in public. We're talking about someone making a mistake in judgement and confronting you in a moment where you're already angry. Nice way to dodge the question though.

 

[JGReed]

"if that situation turns ugly - if a gun is drawn, or a fistfight breaks out - who was wrong?" Um...that'd be whoever starts the fight. It doesn't matter if a person feels angry, disrespected, or insulted (no matter what their week at work was like) they're not justified in escalating to physical violence. Period. As a guy who claims to carry a gun everwhere I hope you're aware of that.

And it's not self-righteous BS to say that NO, if I was making a spectacle of myself by the side of the road and some stranger came and asked my girlfriend if I'd hit her that I would NOT in any way feel like the stranger was the bad guy. I'd still be PO'ed, I'd feel ashamed, and I'd want to get out of there but I would not start throwing hands and I CERTAINLY wouldn't try to prevent my "woman" from saying that I never laid a hand on her.

If it makes you feel any better I was absolutely furious that I had to listen to some foul mouthed punk by the side of the road call me chicken-sh*t for hiding behind a can of pepperspray. That was a lot of pride to swallow.

 

[torpid]

We're not talking about going off on a woman in public. We're talking about someone making a mistake in judgement and confronting you in a moment where you're already angry. Nice way to dodge the question though.

Not a dodge.
Why is the person intervening in the first place? Because of my belligerent behavior in that scenario.

If a stranger approached and asked the lady if she was okay, I would do my best to get a grip on my temper and calm down.

This is me, from my experience.

The person is concerned about a woman in potential distress, he's not my enemy- no matter how angry I am at my "life situation" at the moment.

.

 

[Cousin Mike]

JGReed:

As a guy who claims to carry a gun everwhere I hope you're aware of that.

I kinda resent that, but I'll let it go.

I'm not saying that what you did was bad, or wrong. I think that what you did was morally and idealistically the right thing to do. Legally, I think if it got ugly, you could have gotten yourself in some trouble. Like ezypikns said, we're not cops - and a license to conceal doesn't make us so. Some stuff, no matter how tempting it might be to interfere, is better left to them. At the top of that list, in my opinion, is domestic disputes.

Before I acted, I'd have to make damn sure that what I was witnessing was life threatening. Otherwise, that cell phone is the only thing coming off of my waist, and even before I call the police I want to make sure I have a real reason for doing so. Maybe couples flailing arms around is just a common sight in Columbus - but it's not worth looking twice unless I'm sure I've seen punches being thrown.

My CCW is not to protect and serve the citizens of the city of Columbus. It's to protect me and mine from deadly threats, simple and plain. Anything outside of that, IMO is the responsibility of the police... and dealing with things outside of immediate deadly threats with a CCW is asking for trouble. I don't know what the law is in Maine, but in Ohio you can only use deadly force to protect yourself from the same... You cannot meet less-than-lethal force with lethal force here. If you had pulled a gun on that man for insisting on fighting you, it's possible you could've gone to jail for brandishing, among other things. I really can't see how in your specific situation, you wouldn't be seen as the aggressor.

torpid:

I'll give you credit for that. I didn't think that the behavior in my scenario was belligerent though, just something that could be easily mistaken. I'd like to think that I would do the same. I just don't think I can say that with 100% certainty, I'd be okay with being mistakenly accused of hitting a woman and see that as an opportunity to check my own attitude. I think I'd be too bewildered and confused by the accusation itself. Just trying to be honest.

 

[Headless]

Someone who gets angry to the point of harming a good samaritan because they asked a loved one if they were OK is someone with some serious anger management problems. I'd have to ask how much they care about their significant other if it angers them to that extent that someone else might want to make sure they were not being harmed.

 

[Cousin Mike]

Someone who gets angry to the point of harming a good samaritan because they asked a loved one if they were OK is someone with some serious anger management problems. I'd have to ask how much they care about their significant other if it angers them to that extent that someone else might want to make sure they were not being harmed.

Spin is a wonderful thing, isn't it? I could have said that anyone who involves themselves with domestic disputes with their CCW is a delusional hero wannabe with LEO fantasies and shouldn't be carrying a concealed weapon. I never said that about anyone else, so why do people feel the need to put so much spin on my posts? Why the not-so-subtle insinuations and such? Obviously I'm not worried about finding myself on either side of this situation. What I AM worried about is someone with a CCW who thinks it's okay to get involved in other peoples disputes (and no, I'm not talking about JGReed... I mean ANYONE with that attitude carrying a gun).

Look, my contribution to this thread has been made, so in the interest of keeping it civil, I'll stop posting here. I don't give a damn what you all do with your CCW's, just don't get yourselves into trouble. I look forward to carrying everyday without event, and not posting here about situations I put myself in. For those of you who think I am crazy for insisting that human beings have emotions, and that it isnt wise to interfere with arguing family members, couples, friends, etc... I hope your lives turn out okay.

 

[JGReed]

Cousin Mike - I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on who's the aggressor. It's the guy who starts the fight, and that doesn't mean verbally. Standing five feet away and asking a question (or calling into question a man's intelligence, lineage, and sexual preferences for that matter) is not legal justification for a brawl. That's the difference between picking a fight and starting one. And I say this as a guy who's picked a fight or two in my younger days.

And my whole point was that if I had not had the pepperspray things might have gotten dicey since it turns out that not every conflict involves a homicidal madman. In this case having a firearm, especially one that was poorly secured, put me in a situation where (again had I not had a less-lethal alternative) I might have ended up escalating the situation if the other guy got physical...which might very well get me in trouble since I couldn't honestly say I was in fear of my life outside of the possibility that my handgun would go flying in the dirt and be up for grabs. It would at least be a very nerve-wracking conversation with the Sheriff.

 

[kfranz]

Arguments happen and they're not always avoidable,

Yes, arguments happen. Yes, they are unavoidable. How and where YOU choose to deal with them is completely within your control. Doesn't matter what the wife/SO is doing, all that matters is YOUR response. Stop letting your emotions override your intellect and you'll find the appropriate place and time. It's really just as simple as that.

 

[JGReed]

AND FWIW, I don't disagree with you at all on not getting involved in others disuptes. A man can verbally abuse a woman all he wants and, though I won't think much of him as a man, it's certainly not my place to get involved. BUT if I see a man smack a woman I'm going to make it stop. I don't consider myself a "sheepdog", superhero, vigilante, or LEO wannabe but some things just aren't ok.

 

[hso]

It looks like some of you are missing the point being made.

A domestic dispute is terribly tricky and dangerous. You, as a good person, see something that you think warrants intervention of some sort. You need to understand that you are walking into a mine field and things can blow up without warning.

The advice being given is don't intervene. Just observe and report, if possible. The reason being that you have to be careful of what you think you're seeing since there's at least 2 sides to these issues and sometimes 3 or more. Perspectives can be very different. Also, remember that you're walking into an emotionally charged environment that's also not well controlled. As a civilian you don't have the advantage of badge and uniform to intimidate hot headed couples. The guy may loose it and become threatening. The woman may. You can't ever tell.

He's just pointing out it's a volatile situation where the Good Samaritan can get torn up from either side.

 

[Jeff White]

I'm not going to sugarcoat it..you did something very stupid and dangerous

Domestic disputes are very dangerous things to get involved in. Police departments routinely send two or more officers to one.

Cousin Mike is right about how you can easily be fighting both parities involved in the dispute. The interpersonal dynamics involved in a situation like that have to be seen to be believed. I have seen everything from a woman holding a towel full of ice on her bleeding scalp, standing in the shrads of glass from the beer bottle her boyfriend broke over her head begging us not to arrest him, to women who upon arrival screamed, "That's the last time the SOB will ever hit me arrest him and take him away now, I'll sign a complaint." and have her attitude change as soon as we hooked him up and she ended up trying to fight us to keep us from taking him to jail.

Domestic violence situations are emotionally charged affairs. It's best never to intervene. More police officers are assaulted on that type of call then any other. If you had a cell phone, calling 911 would have been the appropriate response. If you didn't have a cell phone, driving to the nearest phone and calling 911 would have been the appropriate response. That isn't the kind of situation you want to jump into, especially not alone.

Jeff

 

[Hoppy590]

cousin mike

human beings do have emotions. but emotions ARE NOT a valid REASON for anything. Rational thought and reason are what you should make decisions on. You shouldnt shoot some one because your scared, you shoot them because you have analyzed the situation, and have used logic to decide that the best option for your survival is to use force. You shouldnt shoot some one because you are mad for the same reason. yes its a bad decision to be the 3rd party to walk into an arguement. but as a decent human being most of us take it upon ourselves to try to help some one when we can. yes we could call the police. but for all we know by the time they get there she could already be dead/kidnapped/ seriously harmed

you explaining your senario helps some. but i defiantly think you looked too far into it. its pretty up fron. crying woman, angry man. somethings wrong. the GS was just trying to find out what

 

[DRMMR02]

human beings do have emotions. but emotions ARE NOT a valid REASON for anything.

That one statement pwned this whole thread, maybe even this whole forum. Hoppy, I salute you.

 

[Fred Fuller]

"Has anyone else had a similar experience where having a ccw actually felt like more of a handicap than a help?"
==========================

No.

That's because I do my dead level best not to get myself into situations where that might be the case. I do NOT want to be the one bringing a gun to a fistfight. And chances are, if ANY situation starts to seem as if my having a gun there might be a problem, then as far as I'm concerned it's a sure sign I need to be somewhere else, quickly.

A bit of advice FWIW- either change your approach to questionable incidents you observe in public while you are carrying a gun, or stop spending money on anything at all. Start saving every cent you earn from now on. And start looking for a criminal defense lawyer to give all that money to. With any luck, if you keep inserting yourself into volatile situations like that one, a good lawyer might possibly be able to keep you out of jail. But you'll still be broke, and likely have a felony record to boot. At least then you won't have to worry about carrying a concealed weapon- or any other kind- ever again.

Much of what happens after any shooting, no matter what the justification, is at the whim- literally- of the police who answer the call, or the DA who makes the charging decision. I don't know your jurisdiction or the officials in it. It might be that they would give you a medal for getting involved in something like this. But it might also be that if things went south, your pepper spray only POed the guy worse and you did wind up having to shoot him off you, that a couple decades in the Graybar Hotel could be in your future. There are few guarantees in this business. I don't think you own any of them, I could be wrong. I know I don't. I look down every morning and I have yet to see a big red S on my chest, so I act accordingly.

I would advise some calm and rational deliberation on your part about the decisionmaking process that got you into that situation, and some exploration of other avenues of approach than inserting yourself- and your gun- into the middle of such a situation. Go take Mas Ayoob's LFI-1 class to get a little more insight, and if you ever get a chance to listen to Skip Gochenour's presentation titled "After the Shooting," don't miss it.

Stay safe,

lpl/nc

 

[rhubarb]

"CCW Can Limit Options"

If carrying a gun keeps you from getting in an unnecessary fight, then you should carry all the time.

A CCW expands your options. I consider hand-to-hand fighting while carrying a pistol only a way to keep the bad guy off the pistol whether it is before or after I draw. Keep the fighting in your MMA class and the pistol in a holster.

 

[strambo]

Good post Rhubarb, it's what I was thinking before getting caught up in the other issues. A gun is just a tool on your belt...your mind is the limitation (if there is any).

Something to think about for anyone who gets angry in public or can be coaxed into a fight. There are people who fancy themselves "streetfighters" who look for oportunities to get in a fight. They won't just come up and slug you and go to jail for assault, they look for situations to exploit and push your buttons to get you to swing on them. That way they can kinda even look like the good guy. JGReed stumbled on this concept not meaning to, then used pepper spray to get out of it.

I'm really good at a laid back style of de-escalatory verbal judo. I could easily just do the opposite and get someone to attack me too. A person only has the power to control you that you give them. I would suggest not giving them any. My answer to whether I would be able to control myself in that situation is 100% yes. Not because I have a ton of self control, but because I wouldn't be arguing with my wife in public. This is too easy, just shut up...she can't "make" you argue anymore than someone can "make" you hit them by pushing your buttons. When it got to the point that I couldn't drive safely...I'd shut up and drive home, not pull over.

Best way to avoid this, have the self control not to make a public spaectacle of yourself. If you witness others doing it, stay out unless someone is in imminent danger of serious bodily harm.

Edit to add: Do I believe it's possible for a woman to get me so riled up, I'll lose control? Yes, I'm human too. Did I marry or date a woman like that? Heck, no! I'd have been out of there the 1st time it got close to that. The best time to quit a dysfunctional relationship...is early and often (as often as you get in 'em.)

 

[carpettbaggerr]

He's not going to beat her to death with you watching...

Really?

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/predators/kitty_genovese/

 

[strambo]

Carpetbagger, I was speaking in general terms...one can find an exception to anything. If he started to (after you retreated, having seen no physical evidence of her being injured) then you can draw CCW and stop the deadly threat.

 

[strambo]

The most important thing to know before getting involved in any situation is the desired "End State" and stick to that.

In this situation, my "end state" is that the female is not seriously injured. I would have approached the car only to verify that. If/when the guy becomes belligerant and threatening, I would retreat immediately. An altercation with him does not accomplish my end state and could be detrimental to her health (as well as mine and his). I would only physically intervene to protect her from serious harm, that's it.

My self protection wouldn't be an issue before that because I would retreat as soon as I verified she was not injured. I don't need her to say she's OK to know she isn't injured, I don't need his cooperation or for him to be nice. I would call the police if I witnessed a crime or thought one was about to be committed.

Keep your desired end state in mind. Don't get led on tangents, don't let someone else change the subject (in your mind) or control the situation. When I worked security, my end state was often that they leave. I didn't care what they said, what threats they made...as long as they left. They could leave by their own power, by police escort with criminal trespass charges to follow or they could try to assault me or a staff member, get injured, then go back in the ER, then leave under police escort. Their choice, but they were gonna leave.

It's amazing the amount of logic that even a drugged out person can have when alternatives are explained to them in a calm, rational manner. Biggest mistake people make verbally aside from getting emotional, is making threats they can't back up. The perps know what you can and can't do legally and have a good idea of your chances of winning a physical confrontation based on your confidence level. Explaining alternatives like your ordering a Pizza and don't give a hoot which they pick has worked wonders for me.