Cheapest Accuracy Available Today

[Varminterror]

My objective here is the challenge of getting this precision out of as cheap a rifle and scope as possible. And I completely understand all preaching about how you get what you pay for. I am trying to see if I can get what I didn't pay for.

Don’t overthink this. You get what you pay for with the lowest priced rifles on the market - and frankly, you’ll get more than pay for when it comes to accuracy. As I mentioned above, you can pay a lot more and not actually get any greater accuracy (precision).

I am sensing a serious trend towards Savage as a rifle source.

Don’t overthink this either.

This conversation is a race to the bottom, and Savage purposefully prices their products to own that position. They aren’t objectively the best or smallest shooting of the $400 rifles, they just happen to be the cheapest of the sub-MOA rifles, so their base model is priced at $400 while the competition is priced at $450.

There certainly was a time when a guy could buy a cheap Savage or Savage built Stevens rifle and have a rifle which DID shoot smaller than the typical Ruger M77, Win 70, or Rem 700, but those days are long gone. Everyone is building every model to a sub-MOA standard, so again, we’re not talking about the best cheap rifle, it’s really a conversation of the cheapest rifle, because they are all good.

And to your relatively unanswered question earlier - I’m not terribly convinced buying a used rifle of an older era would actually give you better odds of achieving sub-MOA accuracy, and quite likely could reduce your potential for precision. Sure, if you can find a Ruger American which is a few years old and only has 50-100 rounds through it, and can get it for $300 instead of $450, great, but I wouldn’t go looking for a Rem 700 from 1987 priced at $400 and expect it to shoot better than a $400 new Savage Axis.

 

[greyling22]

Accuracy under $700? Challenge accepted.

https://www.primaryarms.com/ruger-american-predator-rifle-6.5-creedmoor-green-22in $500

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2420373744?pid=373744 diamondback hp 4-16x $200. Burris e1 4-14x is about the same money.

 

[Bill_in_TR]

Don’t overthink this. You get what you pay for with the lowest priced rifles on the market - and frankly, you’ll get more than pay for when it comes to accuracy. As I mentioned above, you can pay a lot more and not actually get any greater accuracy (precision).



Don’t overthink this either.

This conversation is a race to the bottom, and Savage purposefully prices their products to own that position. They aren’t objectively the best or smallest shooting of the $400 rifles, they just happen to be the cheapest of the sub-MOA rifles, so their base model is priced at $400 while the competition is priced at $450.

There certainly was a time when a guy could buy a cheap Savage or Savage built Stevens rifle and have a rifle which DID shoot smaller than the typical Ruger M77, Win 70, or Rem 700, but those days are long gone. Everyone is building every model to a sub-MOA standard, so again, we’re not talking about the best cheap rifle, it’s really a conversation of the cheapest rifle, because they are all good.

And to your relatively unanswered question earlier - I’m not terribly convinced buying a used rifle of an older era would actually give you better odds of achieving sub-MOA accuracy, and quite likely could reduce your potential for precision. Sure, if you can find a Ruger American which is a few years old and only has 50-100 rounds through it, and can get it for $300 instead of $450, great, but I wouldn’t go looking for a Rem 700 from 1987 priced at $400 and expect it to shoot better than a $400 new Savage Axis.

When I brought up used as a possibility I wasn't thinking of an older model higher end rifle. I was thinking more along the lines of what you suggested...a recent model with a low round count.

And I am not trying to over think anything. I am trying to let you folks do my thinking.

 

[uuolf]

I recently home built (assembled, 2 years ago but prices are way back down again) an AR15 with the lower and LPG from Anderson and the complete 24" heavy barrel upper from BCA in 223 wylde... and everything was on sale... It'd be tough to find any rifle cheaper than this one was... I purchased an ohhunt scope for $30 and SHK steel mags for $5 each... The entire package was under $400 including FFL + s/h... I worked up an accurate load and went to work at our 200 yard range. All this was done to see if a pretty cheap package could keep up with several "name brand" gas and piston guns I have... I was able to maintain .67"...at 200 yards (1/3" at 100)... Basically same hole groups at 25 yards... I did use a solid rest and conditions were perfect... (I actually did this with 3 other uppers in different calibers also)... Out of the box accuracy can be had with almost any rifle... Just need to use really consistent ammo and technique. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a scoped savage, Thompson or Remington and expect it to do as well... After finding the right combination of gun and ammo. Some may think I'm over simplifying things... But I've been poor most of my life and had to rely on really "cheap" guns... And it mostly boiled down to technique and the ammo... IMHO. As a foot note... When you find what you're looking for then have an expert marksman help demostrate how to make the gun shoot... Including choice of ammo and technique... I've always been happy with my savage 110's and other lower end packages... However I do still endulge in some rather pricey firearms as I get older... Mostly because I look at them more than I get to shoot them...lol like my wife... Now I look at her far more than I shoot at her... Ahhh I meant with her...

 

[gotboostvr]

Find a used 6/6.5CM heavy barrel axis, put a Burris fullfield on it and go bang steel at 1k+ yards if you want to do it on the cheap.

A few choice springs, and some epoxy bedding material to lighten the trigger and stiffen the stock and you'll have a rig that'll shoot better than most people can hold.

 

[Newtosavage]

Interesting observation. Plus, a rifle chambered in .223 generates very little recoil, thus not impacting accuracy appreciably through stock flex anyway. I, too, have heard about Savages flimsy polymer stocks. This, for me, prompts a question. At what caliber, with related recoil, could/should one expect to see stock flex to a degree that accuracy is negatively impacted? My only personal experience with Savage rifles has been in .223 and .17HMR, neither of which seems to generate sufficient recoil to flex the stock to impact accuracy.

It's not really the recoil but rather the chance of the stock touching the barrel on hold. This is more of a problem for hunting rifles IMO because you might be holding in awkward positions, or using a sling that can pull the stock at an angle.

IMO the Ruger American has the worst stock of any rifle out there. It makes the Savage stock look acceptable IMO.

Also, the new Savage 110 stock design is a marked improvement over the old ones.

 

[Newtosavage]

Find a used 6/6.5CM heavy barrel axis, put a Burris fullfield on it and go bang steel at 1k+ yards if you want to do it on the cheap.

A few choice springs, and some epoxy bedding material to lighten the trigger and stiffen the stock and you'll have a rig that'll shoot better than most people can hold.

Those Fullfield II's are so underrated. Most scope for the $ out there IMO. I've had several rifles that have worn them and my current 7mm-08 wears one now. The smallest 400 yard group I've ever shot (under 2") was shot with a Burris Fullfield II at a range in Colorado.

 

[Turkeytider]

Recoil isn’t the reason stock flex is a bad thing for precision, so yes, this paradigm is non-sequitur. But disproving the wrong question doesn’t disprove proper question.

Stock flex allows variations in force to be applied to the barreled action. Whether that variability presents as variability in forend contact and/or variable forend pressure against the barrel, influencing the mechanical POI or harmonics of the barreled action, or presents as variability in pressure against the action through flexion in the mid-board action inlet, with the same consequences.

A lot of folks have the experience @Newtosavage describes, because they shoot in the same conditions and positions so they’ve eliminated variability. “Well mine shoots sub-MOA, so the stock must be fine.” Until they shoot from any other form of support. Flexion is a problem - I’ve even heard reports among Service Rifle shooters that taught sling pressure with non-free-floating rifles could deflect their shots MULTIPLE MOA on target. Obviously an aluminum and steel AR is stiffer than a polymer bolt action stock.

So sure, groups from a bipod on the bench will be small, and then when you get afield and take a sling supported shot at a deer at 100yrds with a 5” target, life is groovy, and confirmation bias blinds the shooter to actual mechanics of their firearm.



It’s not just Savage - low budget polymer stocks suck. Some are better than others, such as Seekins’ carbon fiber reinforced injection molded polymer stocks on their Havak line, or Ruger’s old Zytel boat paddle stocks, or HS Precision stocks with aluminum bedding locks (or Savage Accustocks with the same), but when it comes to cheap injection molded stocks used on low budget rifles, they all suck. Ruger Americans, Savage Axis and even 110’s, Rem 700 ADL’s, etc… polymer stocks are flexible, and flexibility can influence precision.

 

[LoonWulf]

This conversation is a race to the bottom, and Savage purposefully prices their products to own that position. They aren’t objectively the best or smallest shooting of the $400 rifles, they just happen to be the cheapest of the sub-MOA rifles, so their base model is priced at $400 while the competition is priced at $450.

I think that's the most concise and accurate way I've ever heard that said.....

 

[Turkeytider]

Recoil isn’t the reason stock flex is a bad thing for precision, so yes, this paradigm is non-sequitur. But disproving the wrong question doesn’t disprove proper question.

Stock flex allows variations in force to be applied to the barreled action. Whether that variability presents as variability in forend contact and/or variable forend pressure against the barrel, influencing the mechanical POI or harmonics of the barreled action, or presents as variability in pressure against the action through flexion in the mid-board action inlet, with the same consequences.

A lot of folks have the experience @Newtosavage describes, because they shoot in the same conditions and positions so they’ve eliminated variability. “Well mine shoots sub-MOA, so the stock must be fine.” Until they shoot from any other form of support. Flexion is a problem - I’ve even heard reports among Service Rifle shooters that taught sling pressure with non-free-floating rifles could deflect their shots MULTIPLE MOA on target. Obviously an aluminum and steel AR is stiffer than a polymer bolt action stock.

So sure, groups from a bipod on the bench will be small, and then when you get afield and take a sling supported shot at a deer at 100yrds with a 5” target, life is groovy, and confirmation bias blinds the shooter to actual mechanics of their firearm.



It’s not just Savage - low budget polymer stocks suck. Some are better than others, such as Seekins’ carbon fiber reinforced injection molded polymer stocks on their Havak line, or Ruger’s old Zytel boat paddle stocks, or HS Precision stocks with aluminum bedding locks (or Savage Accustocks with the same), but when it comes to cheap injection molded stocks used on low budget rifles, they all suck. Ruger Americans, Savage Axis and even 110’s, Rem 700 ADL’s, etc… polymer stocks are flexible, and flexibility can influence precision.

I suppose the only thing we can conclude then is that Savage rifles are good shooters DESPITE their stocks. Savage must be doing SOMETHING right!

 

[Turkeytider]

It's not really the recoil but rather the chance of the stock touching the barrel on hold. This is more of a problem for hunting rifles IMO because you might be holding in awkward positions, or using a sling that can pull the stock at an angle.

IMO the Ruger American has the worst stock of any rifle out there. It makes the Savage stock look acceptable IMO.

Also, the new Savage 110 stock design is a marked improvement over the old ones.

I guess I was thinking of the shoulder stock flexing when I spoke of recoil and stock flex impacting accuracy. Never really thought of the front stock touching the barrel.

 

[Newtosavage]

I guess I was thinking of the shoulder stock flexing when I spoke of recoil and stock flex impacting accuracy. Never really thought of the front stock touching the barrel.

Yea, by then the bullet has left the barrel. The issue with stock flex that most people worry about is that the forend contacts the barrel pre-shot. If you're in a hunting situation and you are using a tree branch or rock or backpack or whatever to rest the rifle, it could cause a soft forend to contact the barrel. People who use slings are especially prone to pulling weak forends into the barrel. For me, and I'm just a hunter, I have had zero issues with this, ever.

 

[Turkeytider]

Yea, by then the bullet has left the barrel. The issue with stock flex that most people worry about is that the forend contacts the barrel pre-shot. If you're in a hunting situation and you are using a tree branch or rock or backpack or whatever to rest the rifle, it could cause a soft forend to contact the barrel. People who use slings are especially prone to pulling weak forends into the barrel. For me, and I'm just a hunter, I have had zero issues with this, ever.

I don`t really have a frame of reference, but the fore end stock on my 110 Storm feels pretty rigid. I have a sling on the gun but don`t use it to put pressure up front. I`ve checked at the range to see if the barrel is still free floating when in the shooting rest and it is.

 

[LoonWulf]

Savage has done a good job of putting a beeeeeeeeg gap around the barrels on their guns.

 

[stillquietvoice]

OP asked about 2 things:
1. Cheap rifle with sub moa accuracy for 300 to 500yd targets
2. Economical choice for ammo.
But he really should also think about what kind of ammo: bulk, match grade, or handload. If he really wants sub moa, bulk is probably out of the picture.

So here's some thought: let's say the Op has time to shoot 100rds a week.

.223 bulk ammo is about $0.75/rd right now. If he handloads, about $0.30 for powder and primer,
$0.30 for match grade bullets, $0.30 to $0.75 for new brass depending on brand. So min of $0.90,/rd unless he has used brass.
Match grade factory ammo, $1.50 to $2.00/rd
No matter how you do the math, in just a year or two of shooting, the ammo is the biggest chunk of the expense.
So, it makes sense, if you can, to get a rifle you're going to be happy with, even if its a few hundred $ more.
I'm not saying you have to buy a Sako, but accuracy as well as excellent quality in stock, finish, smooth bolt travel, etc. can be had from several brands in the $600 to $1000 range. Tikka, Ruger, Savage 110, Kimber, Cz, Howa, etc could all fit the bill.

I've fone yhe math at 50.00 dollars a pound for powder. 7000 grains in a pound, comes to .007 cents per gr. That's a little over 18 cents per round, for a 26 gr load. 14 cents for rmr 69 hr bthpm, bulk once fired brass 6 cents per case. Primers, well depends but at most 14 cents. Don't get your numbers.

I've owned quite a few savage rifles over the years, including an axis 2, all of yhe synthetic stock guns had some degree of fore end flex mostly solved by opening up the barrel channel, epoxy and some lengths of carbon arrow shaft. One thing that helps is positioning the front bag as close to the action screws as possible, it minimizes pressure to the forend by putting the weight on a less flexible portion of the stock.

I believe one of the axis's attributes is the smaller ejection port from its reciever being closed in more than other bolt action rifles, including the 110 series savage rifles. There is more metal so it's stiffer. Mine would shoot under a half in at 200 yds with several handloads.

Those Fullfield II's are so underrated. Most scope for the $ out there IMO. I've had several rifles that have worn them and my current 7mm-08 wears one now. The smallest 400 yard group I've ever shot (under 2") was shot with a Burris Fullfield II at a range in Colorado.

I shot a 7/8" group at 300 yds with my 700 in the same caliber as yours, currently the most accurate rifle I own, it also wears a ff2 4.5-14, as both my axis2 and m11 243 were gifted to younger family members. My current 223 is still a work in progress.

 

[Hugger-4641]

Don't get your numbers.

Your numbers don't get taxes or the bullets or powder shipped to your door.
My numbers were $50/lb + hazmat and shipping for powder. $30/100 for 69 or 75gr match bullets, + tax and shipping. If you can find new brass cheaper than I quoted please share the link. You also are not getting primers for $0.06.
But the point was that no matter what ammo you use, ammo is the greater cost of the equation, not the rifle.

 

[12Bravo20]

Interesting observation. Plus, a rifle chambered in .223 generates very little recoil, thus not impacting accuracy appreciably through stock flex anyway. I, too, have heard about Savages flimsy polymer stocks. This, for me, prompts a question. At what caliber, with related recoil, could/should one expect to see stock flex to a degree that accuracy is negatively impacted? My only personal experience with Savage rifles has been in .223 and .17HMR, neither of which seems to generate sufficient recoil to flex the stock to impact accuracy.

It is more on the setup and how you rest the rifle that effects the accuracy. The use of a bipod will cause the most flexing issues with the Savage synthetic stocks. And I have seen this happen first hand with every caliber to include 22lr. As Varminterror stated, if you have a very good and steady setup, then stock flex won't be very noticeable. Change your setup such as using a bipod or place the fore end on a wall and stock flex now comes into play.

If you go to Rimfire Central, you will see that stock flex is an issues even with the Savage MkII 22lr rifles.

I'll end with this statement. Just because something doesn't happen to you or nothing breaks in front of you does not mean that it won't happen. And with the Savage synthetic stocks, flex is a known issue. Most will fix it by embedding an aluminum arrow shaft n the fore end.

 

[stillquietvoice]

Your numbers don't get taxes or the bullets or powder shipped to your door.
My numbers were $50/lb + hazmat and shipping for powder. $30/100 for 69 or 75gr match bullets, + tax and shipping. If you can find new brass cheaper than I quoted please share the link. You also are not getting primers for $0.06.
But the point was that no matter what ammo you use, ammo is the greater cost of the equation, not the rifle.

Don't want to derail th ops thread, but just received 3 lb of cfe 223 and a shell holder from midsouth total shipped 151.96. Paid 75.00 for 500 69 gr hpbt match bullets shipped. Never said that primers were 6 cents, said 14 retail.

 

[cournot]

Perhaps as a centerfire newbie, I can add my experience. I bought a slightly used Howa 1500 in 223 for $500 earlier this month. I had never fired a centerfire bolt gun before and only once shot a few rounds from a friend's AR to try it out. In my first two range sessions with the Howa, shooting only PMC 55 grain bulk Bronze off the bench, I averaged about 0.75MOA 3 shot groups at 100 yards. With Winchester White box, the groups opened up to nearly 3 MOA and came back down with some Swiss precision ammo to a 2 session 3 shot low of 0.366. I have now dumped the cheap Nikko scope it came with and put it in an Oryx chassis with a Sightron scope on top. I hope that my groups improve. I think this is quite a lot of cheap fun for anyone getting into bolt guns and I'm impressed with Howa's sub MOA guarantee. It certainly seems to hold true for my unit.

And of course, this is not going to win competitions, no matter what ammo I get or what rifle in .223. But for someone just getting into the game, I'm very pleased with this range toy at 100.

 

[Hugger-4641]

Don't want to derail th ops thread, but just received 3 lb of cfe 223 and a shell holder from midsouth total shipped 151.96. Paid 75.00 for 500 69 gr hpbt match bullets shipped. Never said that primers were 6 cents, said 14 retail.

You are correct, you stated used brass at 0.06, not primers, I mis read.

Either way doesn't change my point.
Even at $0.50/rd and only a 1k rds/yr or even less, ammo cost quickly surpasses cost of the rifle unless you just don't shoot it much.
Personally, I'd rather spend a couple hundred more on the rifle and find deals on brass,, bullets, or other ways to make match grade ammo as cheap as possible.

 

[Turkeytider]

It is more on the setup and how you rest the rifle that effects the accuracy. The use of a bipod will cause the most flexing issues with the Savage synthetic stocks. And I have seen this happen first hand with every caliber to include 22lr. As Varminterror stated, if you have a very good and steady setup, then stock flex won't be very noticeable. Change your setup such as using a bipod or place the fore end on a wall and stock flex now comes into play.

If you go to Rimfire Central, you will see that stock flex is an issues even with the Savage MkII 22lr rifles.

I'll end with this statement. Just because something doesn't happen to you or nothing breaks in front of you does not mean that it won't happen. And with the Savage synthetic stocks, flex is a known issue. Most will fix it by embedding an aluminum arrow shaft n the fore end.

Not in any way disputing what you say, 12Bravo. I`m really surprised, though, with all of the claims of " out of the box " accuracy for Savage rifles with all that stock flexing occurring.

 

[12Bravo20]

I`m really surprised, though, with all of the claims of " out of the box " accuracy for Savage rifles with all that stock flexing occurring.

Yes the Savage synthetic stock is well known to be flimsy. But as long as you use a good front rest and/or shooting bags and use the same setup every time then flex is not an issue. Using a bipod or sling can make the fore end flex enough to tough the barrel which will definitely effect accuracy.

One that shoots mostly from a bench using some type of rest will not notice the flex issues. A hunter or some one that uses a bipod or competition shooter will notice the flex and be effected by it, especially if they are changing positions frequently.

Now if you use a good front rest and/or good bags then yes a Savage with their synthetic stock will be accurate out of the box. And as others have stated, the Ruger synthetic stocks are no better.

 

[Hugger-4641]

Not in any way disputing what you say, 12Bravo. I`m really surprised, though, with all of the claims of " out of the box " accuracy for Savage rifles with all that stock flexing occurring.

Why don't you buy one and tell us your opinion.

It's already been explained fairly well that the rifles themselves are accurate. Put one on bags, led sled , or a bench rest rig, and if you are much of a shooter you will very likely see 1Moa or less with decent ammo. The cheap stock comes in to play more when you change shooting positions. This is something you don't have to deal with on slightly more expensive rifles like Tikka, Bergara or the higher end offerings of Savage and others.

You could buy an Axis for $300 , put a $400 Oryx chassis and a $150 trigger upgrade, problems solved. Or you could just go ahead and buy a Tikka or similar.
Or, as I think the Op is inclined, you just buy the Axis and learn how to live with the undesirable stock and rough bolt travel and you can still get Moa results.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Find a used 6/6.5CM heavy barrel axis, put a Burris fullfield on it and go bang steel at 1k+ yards if you want to do it on the cheap.

A few choice springs, and some epoxy bedding material to lighten the trigger and stiffen the stock and you'll have a rig that'll shoot better than most people can hold.

Where are you getting 6 or 6.5 ammo cheap? Are you loading your own? The absolute cheapest ammo on the planet to load is .223/5.65. Brass is free. At least the 5K I collected at the range. Bullets are economy of scale. OP said he was shooting 3-500 yds. Not 1K.

We do go off on serious diversions here.

Looks like lot of people bought into the Hornady must have cartridge for long range precision shooting.

 

[Roverguy]

Savage Axis, T/C Compass. Mossberg Patriot, Ruger American.

They all have their detractors, but value for money? Lots and lots of support for all these rifles.