Civilian gunfights involving a reload.

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jimbo555

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We discuss and practice reloading all the time. I know there are many incidents when Police Officers have had to reload, but what about civilian shootings? I can't find much out there in non-leo shootings when reloading was necessary.
 
One example I can find is the example of Lanch Thomas who grabbed another gun as the gun he fired went empty.

I'll see if I can find some more, after work.
 
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I can't find much out there in non-leo shootings when reloading was necessary.

I'm not gonna say there aren't any, but they're most likely VERY, very rare. I could see it in a riot situation like the LA riots after the Rodney King thing, perhaps. There were some shop owners making reloads on their rifles I'm guessing. :D That's more like combat than self defense, though.

Normal every day carry, I don't worry about it. If I'm in a tough area, I'll be carrying several revolvers or perhaps will go to a .45 and a .380 back up. I only ever carry one reload and that's just because I can. For the revolver/s, that's normally a speed strip. I simply don't worry a lot about reloading, especially as I'll always at least have a .22 mini revolver as a back up, though it's, at times, the third gun. Carrying more'n one gun is better IMHO as it gives you back up in case your primary malfunctions or it's lost or dropped in a scuffle or something. No telling why I might need it, but it's there. The NAA is carried in my week side pocket so if my strong side arm is hurt or tied up wrestling with a perp, my left hand can easily find a weapon.

I don't know if I'm too paranoid, but I like to be as prepared as possible.
 
I can't find much out there in non-leo shootings when reloading was necessary.

With an auto pistol, any time you experience a stoppage that isn't cleared by Tap/Rack then the next step is a combat reload.
 
And how many civilians have had to perform a combat reload that aren't Rolex dealers or Leo? I understand why we train for it but how many times if any has anyone had to do it during an attack?
 
And how many civilians have had to perform a combat reload that aren't Rolex dealers or Leo? I understand why we train for it but how many times if any has anyone had to do it during an attack?

If you truly understand why "we train for it" then you shouldn't be wondering how many times someone has had to do it. It's not about numbers (statistical probability). It's about "if I need it, I REALLY need it".

How many times did you have a flat tire last year? Do you carry a spare? Why? ;)
 
I carry a spare magazine or two primarily because if I have to shoot, I don't want to be nervous I might run out of rounds before the gunfight ends.

Whether that reload takes .68 seconds or 3.30 seconds has absolutely ZERO meaning to me, for just the reason you're asking the question. Even during riots the bad people do not keep coming when you're sending rounds in their direction. They might regroup and reattack, but now we're getting into statistically ridiculous odds. Not bad to be prepared for them, just don't make them the focus at the expense of other skills.
 
I carry spare ammo for AFTER I shoot (may not even be life threatening)

But the odds of NEEDING to reload are right up there with winning the lottery and the. being attacked by a polar and a regular bear in the same day

Put a fire extinguisher in your car. It'll be far far far more likely to save your or someone else's life than all the reload training in the world
 
If you truly understand why "we train for it" then you shouldn't be wondering how many times someone has had to do it. It's not about numbers (statistical probability). It's about "if I need it, I REALLY need it".

How many times did you have a flat tire last year? Do you carry a spare? Why? ;)


A flat is likely to happen

A tactical reload would be like wearing a parachute everywhere in case you get snatched up by a hungry terra dactyl
 
I've heard of a few having to reload but not many.

Still it's better to have and not need than need and not have!

Deaf
 
I agree that the possibility exists and I always carry a reload or a backup. Just curious if anyone has had to use their reload or backup.
 
I dont see it as wildly unreasonable to need to reload. What is an XDS 45? 5+1? Get attacked by a small gang...put 2 rounds into 3 people...id sure want to reload.

I think the comment about prioritizing your training to be good. How often do we practice drawing and shooting with our weak hand? Probably won't ever need it by in real life you might. Should definitely have the fundamentals locked down first.
 
A flat is likely to happen

Depends very much upon circumstance, right? I haven't have a 'flat' in over ten years and I drive over 40 miles a day 6 days a week. Mostly highway miles, I maintain good quality 10 ply tires. Conversely, If I drove off-road everyday and had minimal 4 ply tires, yes I would expect some flats.

To a great degree...I have control over where I go and I watch for road hazards, hence no flats. The same isn't always possible with respect to self defense. Trouble can find YOU and might very well consist of more than one person.

Reloading (by necessity) for round count is NOT the only reason you might need to 'reload'. What is the MOST common cause of stoppage/failure in a semi-auto handgun? The magazine! If you have a problem with your mag (weak spring, bad feed lips, a follower tips, you have a double feed, you hit the mag catch and drop it and can't retrieve it, etc) then you are going to need what? A SPARE mag. One mag is no mag, two mags are one mag.

What is the statistical probability of a mag related problem? Go to any gun range and observe the untrained/lightly trained in action. You'll start believing in Terra dactyls. ;)
 
Depends very much upon circumstance, right? I haven't have a 'flat' in over ten years and I drive over 40 miles a day 6 days a week. Mostly highway miles, I maintain good quality 10 ply tires. Conversely, If I drove off-road everyday and had minimal 4 ply tires, yes I would expect some flats.



To a great degree...I have control over where I go and I watch for road hazards, hence no flats. The same isn't always possible with respect to self defense. Trouble can find YOU and might very well consist of more than one person.



Reloading (by necessity) for round count is NOT the only reason you might need to 'reload'. What is the MOST common cause of stoppage/failure in a semi-auto handgun? The magazine! If you have a problem with your mag (weak spring, bad feed lips, a follower tips, you have a double feed, you hit the mag catch and drop it and can't retrieve it, etc) then you are going to need what? A SPARE mag. One mag is no mag, two mags are one mag.



What is the statistical probability of a mag related problem? Go to any gun range and observe the untrained/lightly trained in action. You'll start believing in Terra dactyls. ;)


I agree completely.

But that's not really what the OP is asking here

Fire extinguishers are cheap btw.
 
Aside from possibly needing a spare magazine to correct a malfunction (unlikely) the best reason to carry a relaid is for AFTER the event.

It might not really be over and it's poor form to hold or holster an unloaded gun.

There have been many times a citizen was pointing his empty gun at the thug he just shot while others prayed the crook didn't return because their gun was at slide lock.

It's easy to carry a reload. Why not do it?
 
And where are the statistics on "civilian gunfights"?

The NFL may have statistics on how many left handed right tackles had hangnails on the left thumb during the 1935 season, but I don't know of any stats on defense shootings or the outcome, let alone what gun was used and if anyone reloaded.

Jim
 
There was one I remember, but he used New York reloads, and that was that jewelry store owner who went from one loaded gun to the next, up to three guns used per firefight, had more than one in his store, IIRC.
I carry reloads, and while I will train to reload under stress both at work and off duty, I hope I don't nee the first round in the pipe, much less the last one in the last magazine, but if I do I'll be glad it's there.
 
R.W.Dale said:
A flat is likely to happen

A tactical reload would be like wearing a parachute everywhere in case you get snatched up by a hungry terra dactyl

Well, pterodactyls are extinct so I'd say that's impossible. Is it pterodactyl-attack-impossible that you'll ever need to reload in a gunfight?:rolleyes: If so, leave your spare mag at home, then. But I'll be carrying mine if I'm carrying a gun. That mag isn't just analogous to carrying a spare tire for your car. It's also like filling your gas tank all the way to the top even though the trip you're taking is only 50 miles. It gives you more options than leaving town with two gallons and your fingers crossed.

I don't have any hard numbers but I did just read about an incident where a CCW holder engaged and killed a robber, running his gun dry in the process. Shortly thereafter an accomplice showed up and shot the CCW dead while he stood there with an empty gun and probably a look of surprise on his face.
 
To the OP:

Often wondered this same thing myself - there are precious few stats that I have been able to find. Lots of conjecture, posturing and defensiveness on the part of those who carry reloads and those who don't. :)

http://thinkinggunfighter.blogspot.com/2012/03/self-defense-findings.html

"Private citizens reload in approximately 1/2 of one percent of shooting incidents (3/482)."

But this is unsubstantiated by any credible references I can find. I'll keep looking to see if I can find any detailed credible references. This is a good question!

VooDoo
 
Thank you Vodoun for that link. The poster David Armstrong has some serious credentials. I believe the need to reload is rare even in Police shootings, but I will continue to carry a reload or backup firearm .
 
I have been in more gunfights than I have had flat tires. I have not needed a reload during any civilian shooting events, but I reloaded after the first one, because my five-shot revolver was down by three, and I had five rounds in my pocket just sitting there.
I was VERY happy to have a spare mag one time when I ALMOST had to use my pistol, because it looked like it was going to take a lot of shooting to get home. I had to draw, but not fire in that event.
I don't feel underarmed without a reload, but how much space does five rounds or one pistol mag take up? Less than a spare tire...
 
I would be willing to be the farm that 99% (or some notoriously high amount) of civilians involved in shootings can't reload because they don't have spare mags or ammo with them during a fight and so the fact that there are not a lot of incidents of civilians reloading is, in part, an artifact of the fact that they can't reload what they don't have.

It would be interesting to note how many shoot until empty and in every such case, those persons should be reloading, even if the fight is "apparently" over.
 
I'm always amused by these sorts of debate as they require a level of cognitive dissonance to even occur.

Why carry are reload, the chances of ever needing it are vanishingly small?

Well, aren't the chances of ever needing to use your firearm also vanishingly small? Why carry it?

Ah, but we are ready and prepared for the worst case scenario, that's why we carry a gun. But, what about the worst case scenario for that?

The question really should be, how many worst case scenarios are we willing to prep for, and is the trade off for that acceptable. Are the concessions that need to be made to carry a reload to great to justify it. I would say that in almost every scenario, they are not, so the reload should be carried.
 
I agree that the possibility exists and I always carry a reload or a backup. Just curious if anyone has had to use their reload or backup.

Only time I've ever pulled a pistol, the sight of it ended the altercation, no shots fired.

I dont see it as wildly unreasonable to need to reload. What is an XDS 45? 5+1? Get attacked by a small gang...put 2 rounds into 3 people...id sure want to reload.

I think the comment about prioritizing your training to be good. How often do we practice drawing and shooting with our weak hand? Probably won't ever need it by in real life you might. Should definitely have the fundamentals locked down first.

And, it really depends on where you're at. If I had to live and work in a place like Chicago, but where they allow CCW (not likely, either), I'd wear armor, carry 15 handguns and a shotgun under my coat, maybe a Chicago typewriter. I'd rival Mel Gibson in "Beyond Thunderdome". But, I spend most of my life in the woods at the end of the road or in one of the small towns of about 2500 people 20 miles in either direction once on the highway. I normally carry my .38 snub and my .22NAA and often without a reload. If I carry a reload, it's in a speed strip for convenience. I don't feel particularly in peril. I arm up with one more, a belt gun, when I go to the big city. Now, out here, I'm more apt to need my .38 to shoot coyotes or a mangy feral dog chasing my chickens than a BG. Actually, that has happened. And, I've used my NAA to take down a couple of water moccasins since we've been here, about a year and a half. But, we already know most of the folks down the road from us, private road, we all get together and pool our money when the road gets washed out or otherwise needs maintained. Makes for good neighbors, all-be-it not exactly next door neighbors. :D I walk in the woods with a shotgun checking my feeders and game camera, one barrel with 6 shot for squirrel, the other with buck or a slug for the possibility of running across a hog. I ain't worried about BGs out here. I mean, it could happen, but pity the poor illegal crossing through my place that tries to assault me. :D That ain't likely to happen, either. We're pretty well north of the border.

So, yeah, if I lived and worked in Houston or San Antonio, I'd be way more worried about multiple assailants. Where I spend most of my life, though, I'm not really worried about ONE assailant. :D Even in the small towns, the possibility is remote. The crime rate here is non-existent. When I lived in Corpus, I carried my Kel Tec 9, 11 rounds of +P on tap and a spare mag. I even showered with it on the counter. Rough town for being a small city. The TV news proved it every night. Lots of drug and illegal traffic funnel through that town on the way to Houston and points north and the cartels are prevalent there. But, since we've moved, I've put the old Kel Tec aside for my preferred revolvers. :D Location makes a lot of difference in how I arm myself and whether I deem a reload necessary. I don't have just ONE gun nor ONE strategy. Depends on threat level. I practice for any eventuality, of course, nearly daily on my range behind the house. I practice weak hand with my NAA .22 all the time, carry it in my weak side pocket just in case I'm tied up with my strong hand fighting off an assault. I used to do a lot more reload practice and weak hand shooting of my primary when I was shooting IDPA, but still do now and then. Everyone out here has a private range. It's not a safe place for drug gangs to hang out and their sales would suffer at any rate. :D
 
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Magazines; private citizens.....

I can not recall specific incidents where a private citizen used a spare pistol magazine or needed to reload a revolver in a lethal force event but I'm sure there are many.
Author, sworn LE officer & trainer; Massad Ayoob may have put out a article or two about the topic. He writes a few magazine columns & blogs.

It was a off-duty LE officer who was eating dinner with his wife when he encountered a active shooter in a mall. :eek:
The police officer had a 1911a1 .45acp pistol & reportedly was down to his last 2/3 .45acp rounds when more LE officers got on scene to assist him. :eek:

I do carry at least one 13-15 round pistol mag with me when I carry a firearm. When I use a revolver I tote at least 02 speed strips. ;)
Carrying extra rounds isn't a huge issue for me or "hard" :rolleyes:. Having a firearm run out & being shot would be much worse than the "hassle" of carrying a extra mag or two.
 
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