Colt SAA help

[Mark_Mark]

I am well aware of that. Colt simply printed that to avoid lawsuits. We both know it does not make the average SAA a "Collector's Firearm". Collectors will determine what is collectable, not manufacturers. The Franklin Mint makes things they claim are collectable. No true coin collector would ever purchase anything made by the Franklin Mint.

Lawyers letter and warning, it’s a reduction in liability thang

ever seen a lawnmower with, “ Do no touch spinning blade” there because someone touch it and manufacturer got sued

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

I am well aware of that. Colt simply printed that to avoid lawsuits. We both know it does not make the average SAA a "Collector's Firearm". Collectors will determine what is collectable, not manufacturers. The Franklin Mint makes things they claim are collectable. No true coin collector would ever purchase anything made by the Franklin Mint.

Well put.

Many "collectables" are nothing more than a marketing scheme.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

@Driftwood Johnson

It always amazed me how competition shooters, like the one you talked about, are allowed to shoot such ridiculously low powered ammunition that's in no way representative of historically accurate performance.

Ah, well... at least the shooting is fun, right?

 

[AlexanderA]

So 45 Cowboy Special brass was developed. It has the same rim configuration as 45 Colt, and the same internal case capacity as 45 ACP. 45 ACP loading data can be used with 45 CS. That way, the mouse fart shooters in CAS could put 2 grains of Whiz Bang into a 45 CS case and still have ridiculously light recoil and reliable ignition.

How do commercial "Cowboy" .45 LC loadings compare to this?

 

[hawg]

Oh, come on, I'm sure you know why, but I will explain it anyway.

Fifteen or twenty years ago some Cowboy Action shooters, who insisted on loading the 45 Colt down so it recoiled about like a light 38 Special, noticed that ridiculously light loads in the huge 45 Colt case had so much airspace in them that ignition was unreliable. So 45 Cowboy Special brass was developed. It has the same rim configuration as 45 Colt, and the same internal case capacity as 45 ACP. 45 ACP loading data can be used with 45 CS. That way, the mouse fart shooters in CAS could put 2 grains of Whiz Bang into a 45 CS case and still have ridiculously light recoil and reliable ignition. Later, Black Powder shooters discovered that the 45 CS was an excellent round for very light Black Powder loads because the case could be filled with powder (I don't recall exactly how much) and no air space was left inside.

Yes, of course mouse fart shooters could use the 45 Schofield case, with less powder capacity than 45 Colt, but 45 CS has even less powder capacity than 45 Schofield.

Yeah I was in SASS and on the SASS wire when they came out with it.

 

[CraigC]

I grip HARD and just slightly unlock my elbow.

From my USPSA days, I tried the whole “Elbow shock absorbing” thing. Slowed me down.

Grip Hard, then add 20% more

This ain't USPSA, IPSC, IDPA or any other autojammer gun game. Stiff-arm a single action and you're going to have to reacquire your grip between shots. Stiff-arm a .500 and you're going to have tendinitis.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

It always amazed me how competition shooters, like the one you talked about, are allowed to shoot such ridiculously low powered ammunition that's in no way representative of historically accurate performance.

Ah, well... at least the shooting is fun, right?

First of all, CAS is a shooting game, it is not historical re-enactment. As such, CAS has little to do with the actual cartridges, and power levels, that were common during the 19th Century. This has been plainly stated many times.

However, there are some of us who have more fun firing full power Black Powder cartridges than the mouse fart loads of many in the winner's circle.

Anyway, few years ago a minimum power factor was introduced in CAS. I don't recall now exactly what the minimum power factor is, it is quite low, but it was introduced to at least make a minimum power level the rule.

 

[Paul R Zartman]

Why?

Obviously... cause it says COWBOY on it, as well as SPECIAL .... almost as cool as Wax Bullets and Drop In Primers for the 45 colt

 

[Mark_Mark]

This ain't USPSA, IPSC, IDPA or any other autojammer gun game. Stiff-arm a single action and you're going to have to reacquire your grip between shots. Stiff-arm a .500 and you're going to have tendinitis.

I stiff arm on my S&W .460 with extra mag load. Not a problem at all. Even single handed without a issue. lol

 

[Speedo66]

P.S. Regarding that Colt that Colt said was a 'collector's firearm': Colt was doing that to cover their butt against lawsuits. Colt was afraid somebody would load six rounds, then drop the thing and have it go off when the hammer hit the ground. So they included that note to cover their butts against lawsuits. Why do you think the Italian imported replicas of the Colt have to have a safety device of some sort while Colts do not? For the same reason. Colt has gotten away with keeping the mechanism the same as it was in 1873, and not having to include a safety device, by declaring the SAA is a 'collector's firearm'.

Any gun not fired is also a gun that won't be in for warranty repairs, either.

Pretty sad though, a gun manufacturer telling you not to shoot their (expensive) product.

 

[CraigC]

I stiff arm on my S&W .460 with extra mag load.

You're going to have a more harmonious outcome if you don't. But what do I know.

 

[Mark_Mark]

You're going to have a more harmonious outcome if you don't. But what do I know.

I flinch like crazy and can’t hit a barn after the second shot

 

[drobs]

everyone says, I won’t have another chance. So. I’m getting the Crome Colt Wednesday, and the Montana a few weeks later. if the Montana is still there

If you are only gonna buy the more expensive 1 and the leave the other up to fate, send me the gun shop's phone number, I'll buy it.

However, if I were you, I'd buy one and put a $100 down / layaway the other one.

 

[drobs]

Driftwood Johnson when was nickel 1st offered by Colt as a finish on the SAA?

 

[Mark_Mark]

If you are only gonna buy the more expensive 1 and the leave the other up to fate, send me the gun shop's phone number, I'll buy it.

However, if I were you, I'd buy one and put a $100 down / layaway the other one.

I’ll get both

 

[Mark_Mark]

Collectors want pristine guns. The closer to new the better. Then they will languish in a safe somewhere never to be fired again. I may devalue my guns but I take guns away from the collectors. Guns were made to be used, not to sit in a safe somewhere. If I had a pristine 1873 Colt with a single digit serial number with provenance it had never been fired I'd shoot the snot out of it.

How about serial number #2! let’s shoot it!!

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Driftwood Johnson when was nickel 1st offered by Colt as a finish on the SAA?

Howdy Again

I had to go to Kopec's massive A Study of the Colt Single Action Army Revolver to find an answer. I'm pretty sure the Army contract Colts, a total of over 37,000 from 1873 until 1890 were all blued.

I did find a few examples of custom commercial SAAs that were nickel plated as early as 1874.

The blue finish applied to firearms at this time was not as robust as modern blue. I have read that more Smith and Wesson pocket pistols were produced with nickel plating instead of blue. Nickel plating may have been more robust than the blue finishes of the day.

 

[grter]

Nickle plating does have it's weaknesses but it is still as far as I know to this day considered more robust than blueing.

 

[hawg]

Colt wasn't nickel plating in the 1860's but other manufacturers were. I'm pretty sure S&W was.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Colt wasn't nickel plating in the 1860's but other manufacturers were. I'm pretty sure S&W was.

Three Smith and Wesson #1 Tip Ups

The one at the top is a 1st Issue, 5th Type that shipped in 1859. Brass frame that was silver plated, but most of the silver plating has worn off.

The middle one is a 2nd Issue that would have shipped sometime between 1860 and 1868. Blued barrel, silver plated frame.

At the bottom is a 3rd issue that shipped in 1870. Nickel plated.






S&W #1 1/2 New Model Tip Up that shipped in 1873, nickel plated.






As I said earlier, nickel plating was more common on the Smith and Wesson Top Break pocket pistols than was a blued finish.

Nickel Plated S&W 38 Single Action, 1st Model (Baby Russian) that shipped in 1876.






Nickel Plated S&W 38 Single Action 2nd Model that shipped in 1877.






Nickel Plated s&W 32 Single Action that shipped in 1881.






Another nickel plated S&W 32 Single Action that shipped in 1889.






Nickel Plated S&W 32 Safety Hammerless that shipped in 1905.






Nickel Plated 32 Safety Hammerless Bicycle revolver that shipped in 1908.






While I am on the subject of early nickel plated revolvers, this nickel plated Merwin Hulbert Pocket Army shipped between 1881 and 1883.






Nickel plated Remington Model 1875 that shipped between 1882 and 1889.






Silver plated Remington Model 1890 that shipped sometime after 1890.

 

[hawg]

OK so I was wrong about S&W being nickel plated in the 1860's. They were still doing it before Colt. The Belgians were nickel plating in the 1850's.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

OK so I was wrong about S&W being nickel plated in the 1860's. They were still doing it before Colt. The Belgians were nickel plating in the 1850's.

No, you were not wrong, sorry if I gave that impression. I was just showing a few plated Smiths in my collection. I should have been more thorough.

Let's look at this photo of three little #1 Tip Ups again.

The one at the top, a 1st Issue, 5th Type, usually had sliver plating on the brass frame, which has practically all worn away now.

The one in the middle, 2nd Issue that would have shipped sometime between 1860 and 1868, was available either with a blued barrel and silver plating on the frame like this one, or it was also available fully nickel plated.

The one at the bottom, a 3rd issue that shipped in 1870, was available in three different finishes; blue, nickel, or a nickel frame with blue barrel and cylinder. Mine is the nickle plated version and it shipped in 1870, however this model was made from 1868 until 1881, so it fits your criteria of being a nickel plated S&W revolver from the 1860s.






This is a #2 Old Army. This model was made from 1861 until 1874. Being a 32 Rimfire it was bigger and more powerful than the little #1 revolvers that fired what we would call today a 22 Short. It was not as powerful as the big 44 caliber Cap & Ball revolvers of the day, but it was popular with Union officers because as a cartridge revolver it could be loaded much more quickly than a C&B revolver. This one shipped in 1870 and it has the standard blue finish. However the Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson states that an estimated 10% of this model were nickel plated.






That's it for the S&W revolvers made during the 1860s, the Top Breaks did not appear until after the Rollin White patent expired in 1869.



This is a #3 First Model Russian. At first I thought it was in the white, but later I realized it has been nickel plated, and a bad job at that, clearly an aftermarket plating job. It has also had a coin substituted for the front sight. This one shipped in 1873. However, this model is physically identical to the American Model, the only difference being the cartridge they were chambered for. The American Model was chambered for the 44 S&W American round with a heeled bullet, the 1st Model Russian was chambered for the 44 Russian cartridge. I do not have an American Model in my collection, this 1st Model Russian is the closest I have been able to come with its obvious flaws. My point is, the American Model, which was made from 1870 until 1874, and looked just like this, was available with either a blued finish or nickel plated. Several years before Colt began nickel plating the Single Action Army.

 

[hawg]

You have definitely got a nice collection of guns. I am absolutely green with envy.

 

[Mark_Mark]

Put both the Montana ($1200) and Samuel Gun ($1400) on Layaway like a member suggested

Just got back from the shop. Consignment person agreed on a price of $1400!!

Samuel Colt SAA special, after looking at the gun, that probably the right price. small spot rust (rice grain size) on the sight groove. Nickel peeing in 2 different locations; see photo. Will definitely be a shooter and look good as a BBQ gun.

Montana Colt surprise me the Most!! Very good condition, lightly fired. Some makers on the cylinder. But I love the look if the gun!!! I thought I took photos, but apparently not. Photos when I get it in the house.

 

[Mark_Mark]

a few more interesting guns the “ Old gun counter guy” showed me