Comparison 7.62x39 vs. 30-30

[Llama Bob]

Let me rephrase that. The lever action was cutting edge at that time, not the Model 94 since it hadn't been invented yet. Neither had the 30-30 cartridge for that matter.

Yeah, I think the Turks had both '66s and '73s. The '94 hadn't been invented yet. My point was simply that lever rifles have a history of military effectiveness - they have a good rate of fire and sufficient power for up close.

Model 1886s in .45-90 proved to be effective for downing zeppelins in WWI, but that's a separate historical note

 

[jmr40]

Neither would be my personal 1st choice, but between the 2 at one time I'd have said 30-30 hands down. But some 7.62X39 loads are right on the heels of 30-30 now I'd still pick a lever 30-30 over an AK if hunting were the primary purpose and personal defense secondary. If the roles were reversed I'd pick the AK between the 2. But would really rather have other options.

 

[hq]

Neither would be my personal 1st choice, but between the 2 at one time I'd have said 30-30 hands down. But some 7.62X39 loads are right on the heels of 30-30 now

The now-discontinued Norma 7.62x39 125gr SP hunting round of the 90's was loaded smoking hot with a premium bullet and it used to be the ticket for quick and efficient deer kills in its day. Too bad it was at its best with a 20" barrel and my FEG AK of the time never reached its factory specified velocities with its 16" barrel. Not quite the bullet weight or power of more common premium .30-30 rounds but some people vowed it could reach out to almost 300yd. Too bad Sako loads the current 123gr Gamehead quite a bit milder, even though the difference from shorter barrels isn't supposedly quite as pronounced.

 

[Jason_W]

Out of sheer curiosity, why, ie. would you think there's a solid reason? In objective terms the marginal difference in ballistics isn't enough to tip the scale to one way or another and after that I'd see the whole question as a subjective matter of individual, personal preference. Recently I've used Ruger Mini 30 for deer, which is just that, a choice I can't really explain in any other way than I happen to like it and it does the job.

I don't know that I would call the difference between the two rounds marginal. Most x39 rounds launch a 123 grain bullet at around 2300 f/s for a ME in the neighborhood of 1500 ft/lbs. A basic .30-30 load will launch a 170 grain bullet at 2200 f/s for a ME of about 1800 ft/lbs.

If you go to premium .30-30 ammo, I'm seeing that the Hornady 160 grain flex tip round has a MV of 2400 f/s and a ME of 2000 ft/lbs. There's also a 190 grain buffalo bore load that matches the 170 grain load in muzzle Energy, but would likely offer an edge in penetration.

I've personally never understood why the .30-30 and the 7.62x39 are often considered ballistic twins. The Russian rounds does what it was designed to do well and in is an adequate medium game round, but the .30-30 is appreciably more powerful in terms of muzzle energy and the ability to throw heavier bullets.

 

[bearcreek]

Yeah, I think the Turks had both '66s and '73s. The '94 hadn't been invented yet. My point was simply that lever rifles have a history of military effectiveness - they have a good rate of fire and sufficient power for up close.

So does the Brown Bess musket. That doesn't make it the best option for today.

 

[hq]

7.62x39 has been severely handicapped by scarcity of decent factory hunting loads. My reloading experience with the caliber is still very limited (no spare time for load development lately), but the fairly basic load data I've borrowed from my friends have yielded close to 2500fps V10 with 125gr Sierra Pro-Hunter and a tad over 2300fps with 150gr Barnes TSX with no signs of overpressure or accuracy issues. I haven't checked how common .30-30 hunting loads would compare, but in practical terms and without splitting hairs I doubt there's a deer alive that could live on the difference. OTOH, the difference between .30-30 and my usual .308 deer loads is much larger than this, which doesn't seem to make a difference the other way around either.

Just speculating whether the difference is as meaningful as all this might lead one to believe.

 

[Llama Bob]

So does the Brown Bess musket. That doesn't make it the best option for today.

They haven't gotten any less effective with time. They're fast, have a decent capacity, and have acceptable external and terminal ballistics in close. Certainly good enough to get the job done. Arguing about "the best" option is largely pointless when there are plenty of good options.

 

[bearcreek]

They haven't gotten any less effective with time. They're fast, have a decent capacity, and have acceptable external and terminal ballistics in close.

True, they haven't gotten less effective. Just like with the Brown Bess though, the probable opposing weapons have gotten more effective.

Certainly good enough to get the job done.

That, of course, depends on the job to be done.

Arguing about "the best" option is largely pointless when there are plenty of good options.

Yet, here we are. Aren't these online there forums great?

 

[Jason_W]

7.62x39 has been severely handicapped by scarcity of decent factory hunting loads. My reloading experience with the caliber is still very limited (no spare time for load development lately), but the fairly basic load data I've borrowed from my friends have yielded close to 2500fps V10 with 125gr Sierra Pro-Hunter and a tad over 2300fps with 150gr Barnes TSX with no signs of overpressure or accuracy issues. I haven't checked how common .30-30 hunting loads would compare, but in practical terms and without splitting hairs I doubt there's a deer alive that could live on the difference. OTOH, the difference between .30-30 and my usual .308 deer loads is much larger than this, which doesn't seem to make a difference the other way around either.

Just speculating whether the difference is as meaningful as all this might lead one to believe.

I agree that for deer sized game, the difference is probably academic. Dead is dead, after all. Controversial though it may be, many hunters take deer in the US using the .223 which flings lighter bullets than both of the OP's rounds and packs way less energy than the ,30-30.

Growing up in Vermont (a rural state in the northeastern Vermont) a lot of hunters who drew moose tags successfully and cleanly killed moose with their .30-30 deer rifles. Most where I grew up couldn't afford to buy a new rifle for a one time hunt. I'd personally trust the heavier bullets of the .30-30 on moose over the typically lighter bullets of the 7.62x39mm.

 

[Llama Bob]

True, they haven't gotten less effective. Just like with the Brown Bess though, the probable opposing weapons have gotten more effective.

Well, really not that much. If you're trying to aim your shots an AK is no faster than a model 94. Sure you can spray randomly with the AK somewhat faster, but you won't hit anything. The model 94 is probably more accurate, and definitely lighter and more ergonomic. Both could benefit from a sight change, but the 94 is probably ahead very slightly stock. The AK does have more magazine capacity, but again if you're actually aiming it doesn't make much difference.

 

[hq]

Growing up in Vermont (a rural state in the northeastern Vermont) a lot of hunters who drew moose tags successfully and cleanly killed moose with their .30-30 deer rifles. Most where I grew up couldn't afford to buy a new rifle for a one time hunt. I'd personally trust the heavier bullets of the .30-30 on moose over the typically lighter bullets of the 7.62x39mm.

Back in 50's it wasn't unusual to hunt moose with handguns around here, which resulted in banning handgun hunting and setting minimum projectile weight and energy limits for hunting various species of game. The current minimum for moose with a 10g (154gr) bullet E100m is 2000J (1475ft-lbs); that would mean really pushing the limits of 7.62x39 and still a fairly hot and high BC load like Hornady 160gr LeverEvolution for .30-30 as a 154gr bullet should still have velocity of almost 2080fps at 110 yards to be legal.

I'd pick either for deer hunting any day, but probably wouldn't hunt moose with either even when the legal minimum is met. I've almost been run over by a moose a couple of times and that's when you're glad you're packing more serious firepower.

 

[ColoradoMinuteMan]

I don't know that I would call the difference between the two rounds marginal. Most x39 rounds launch a 123 grain bullet at around 2300 f/s for a ME in the neighborhood of 1500 ft/lbs. A basic .30-30 load will launch a 170 grain bullet at 2200 f/s for a ME of about 1800 ft/lbs.

If you go to premium .30-30 ammo, I'm seeing that the Hornady 160 grain flex tip round has a MV of 2400 f/s and a ME of 2000 ft/lbs. There's also a 190 grain buffalo bore load that matches the 170 grain load in muzzle Energy, but would likely offer an edge in penetration.

I've personally never understood why the .30-30 and the 7.62x39 are often considered ballistic twins. The Russian rounds does what it was designed to do well and in is an adequate medium game round, but the .30-30 is appreciably more powerful in terms of muzzle energy and the ability to throw heavier bullets.

The reality is that in many respects they are very similar from a velocity and trajectory perspective. There is an edge to the 30-30 when it comes to energy, but energy is an often debated and misunderstood factor. A good example of that is a 44 Mag. Most of us will agree that you level a deer at 100 yards with a 44 Mag which only produces 900 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle. We also won't disagree that you can kill a deer with a bow which is only producing 80 ft/lbs of energy upon impact.

There is no way any medium game or smaller living creature will react differently to being hit by a 123gr projectile or 160gr projectile that is moving at 1700fps, all things remaining equal.

 

[Coyote3855]

Well, really not that much. If you're trying to aim your shots an AK is no faster than a model 94. Sure you can spray randomly with the AK somewhat faster, but you won't hit anything. The model 94 is probably more accurate, and definitely lighter and more ergonomic. Both could benefit from a sight change, but the 94 is probably ahead very slightly stock. The AK does have more magazine capacity, but again if you're actually aiming it doesn't make much difference.

I dispute your claim in post 11 that AKs are "junk guns. " You say the AK is something you wouldn't spend your money on. This indicates to me that you do not own an AK and perhaps have never shot one, but you still feel qualified to compare them to a Model 94. Do you have a Model 94 in .30-30 caliber? Or have you shot one? What's the source of personal experience to back up your opinions?

I have an AK and a several Model 94s in .30-30 and .25-35. The AK is not a junk gun in my opinion (there are millions of them in circulation). Is it faster than a lever action? Absolutely. It can be aimed and fired accurately without "spraying randomly" because the operator does not need to change his grip on the rifle to cycle the action as is necessary with a lever gun.

That said, and in answer to the OP's question, I would prefer the Winchester to the AK for short range, medium game hunting primarily because of a better selection of factory ammunition.

 

[CraigC]

The basic fact that you cannot get around is that the SKS/AK and the 7.62x39 were designed for fighting, at relatively close ranges, with ball ammo. Folks like them for cheap blasting ammo. Due to the odd bore size and the perceived purpose of the cartridge and the rifles that chamber it, it is limited in its utility. The Winchester 94 and its .30WCF cartridge were designed for hunting and that is what they've excelled at for over a century. The Winchester heaves a heavier bullet at similar velocities and that makes it more than 'just' a deer cartridge.

Back in 50's it wasn't unusual to hunt moose with handguns around here, which resulted in banning handgun hunting and setting minimum projectile weight and energy limits for hunting various species of game.

That explains a lot.

I would not hesitate to use a properly loaded .30-30 or .44/.45 handgun for moose.

 

[denton]

The case capacity of the 7.62x39 is 35.6 grains of water. The capacity of the 30-30 is 45 grains. The 30-30 is the more powerful cartridge.

So why a 30-30 for deer? It has more power. You can push a 160 flex tip bullet out of a 30-30 at about the same speed you can push a 123 grain bullet out of an AK. Lever action 30-30s tend to be sort of 2 MOA-ish, where SKSs and AKs tend to be more 4 MOA-ish. So the 30-30 will probably be more accurate. Power and accuracy are two good reasons to prefer it.

 

[denton]

The Winchester heaves a heavier bullet at similar velocities and that makes it more than 'just' a deer cartridge.

We were posting at the same time. Great minds....

 

[1stmarine]

The modern 7.62x39 and 30-30 brass and bullets are both adequate rounds but the 30-30 wiht heavier loads is hard to beat.

I pulled some test data of factory ammo and reloads and applied same atmospheric values.

Loads:
7.62x39 125gr Silver Bear. Gun saiga 16"
7.62x39 154gr Tula shot. Gun saiga 16"
7.62x39 135gr Sierra hpbt Reload R7. Gun Saiga 16"
7.62x39 150gr hdy.sp. Reload. Gun bolt 18"

30-30 160gr FTX - Hornady SPF. Gun 20" marlin.
30-30 190gr pp - Buffalo Bore. Gun 20" marlin.
30-30 150gr hdy sp.Reload. Gun Bolt 18"B.

Please keep in mind reloads might be worked up carefully and with quality brass and very old firearms
might not like the modern ammunition and might put too much stress on lugs or chamber. Not a problem
for the AK but in the case of very old levers check first. Just like the old 45/70 cannot take some modern loads.
Also keep in mind while speer points and match bullets are not recommended for 30-30 can be used safely in
a tube fed magazine given that one keeps one in the chamber, next follow up and then if more ammo is needed
one will need to make an inert round in between subsequent shots and chamber once, extract the dummy and
chamber again to get the live round into battery. This way one can load premium 30 caliber bullets w/o worries about
accidental ignition of the primer due to recoil in the magazine tube.
Not a problem in a bolt action 30-30 obviously.
The 7.62x39 can also be reloaded with 30 cal bullets (some rifling better than other like hybrid chambers and bores) but can also enjoy more power with quality brass and premium bullets.


Variables.
1005 BP.
10C.
555 OSL
5mph wind.
200 yard zero.

Speed

Path

Energy

Momentum (Power Factor)

As you can see the 7.62x39 is a decent round specially with heavier 150gr bullets and while a better option than a 30 carbine or a whisper/blackout, it should be limited to 150 yards-200 yards
taking into account striking speed. But the 30-30 provides a significant advantage no so much
on speed or trajectory but in power and therefore capable of taking on larger game, longer range
and/or faster kills.

I hope this helps.
.
.

 

[DownInTheDark]

Reloading for 7.62x39 aint cheap. Trying to find the brass is hard and expensive in itself. Also .310-.311 bullets are expensive and limited, though some guns are barreled to fire .308, such as early model Mini-30s.

 

[1stmarine]

Reloading for 7.62x39 aint cheap.
Trying to find the brass is hard and expensive in itself.
Also .310-.311 bullets are expensive and limited, though some guns are barreled to fire .308, such as early model Mini-30s.

I don't think it is expensive.
The once fired brass can be found at the range but if that is not possible once fired brass like winchester, fiocci is dirt cheap.
many guns will shoot 30 caliber bullets very inexpensivelly and for practice one has bulk factory seconds to comparable prices as the 308 caliber.
Also brass like lapua being very expensive can be reloaded so many times that it becomes cheap in the end.
The only thing one has to be careful is when using quality brass and using autoloaders like an AK we should put a rubber insert or something
in the dust cover where the brass hits so we don't abuse quality brass. I put some in some ARs that have the deflector kind of sharp so this prevents
from damaging the reloading brass too much.
It works well with budget primers not perhaps for the most accurate loads and it takes some of the 303 150gr bullets too.
So I think if one is smart and collects brass or finds once fired brass and bulk deals it is not more expensive than many other affordable calibers.
At least this has been my experience. Perhaps for others is very hard to have access to a range recycling bin or a LGS with affordable prices on
bullets and powders. But one can always order online.
IMO like many other calibers the key might be to order bulk as much as one can afford of the same component and perhaps phase it out.

 

[ColoradoMinuteMan]

Reloading for 7.62x39 aint cheap. Trying to find the brass is hard and expensive in itself. Also .310-.311 bullets are expensive and limited, though some guns are barreled to fire .308, such as early model Mini-30s.

If you look around it actually isn't that bad. New and once fired brass is roughly the same for 30-30 as it is for 7.62x39. You can find decent 7.62x39 projectiles starting with SP at .19, Interlock .29, and TSX at .70. For 30-30 we're looking at .13, 23, and .70 for similar types. You use roughly 75% of the powder in a 7.62x39 than you do a 30-30. Granted there isn't as much selection on bullets. I know everyone has their favorites and the more options the better, but in the end, how many options do you really need as opposed to want. You can have match, varmint, FMJ, SP, locked core, cast and bonded, which pretty much covers the bases.

If you look around for once fired you can actually find a lot of deals. I got 700 count of Winchester 7.62x39 once fired brass on this site in 2016 for $.10 each which I thought was a fair deal. Granted, if you are looking for plinking ammunition, it makes no sense to reload 7.62x39, but you can reload premium hunting, target or defense ammo for 7.62x39 at roughly the same cost as you can any other shouldered .30 caliber rifle cartridge.

 

[BrocLuno]

I wouldn't choose either rifle. I'd go Ruger Mini30 and do both hunt and blast

For those of us with wide heads (not fatheads...), the sloped stock on the Winchester down on the irons means a serious cheek slap

Never met an AK I liked. Just not my cup ...

And I still own 30-30 lever guns, but I've sold all the Winchesters. It's Marlins now with small light short scopes

 

[igotta40]

Wow that's a lot of very helpful info and certainly helps me recognize the pros, cons and best use of each round/rifle. Next hog hunt I'll take that 30-30.

 

[hq]

The basic fact that you cannot get around is that the SKS/AK and the 7.62x39 were designed for fighting, at relatively close ranges, with ball ammo. Folks like them for cheap blasting ammo.

Quite a few of popular hunting cartridges were originally and specifically designed for fighting at a variety of ranges. All the way from .45-70, .30-06 and 7.62x54R to 7x57/8x57, .308/7.62x51, .223/5.56x45 and even .338Lapua. Like my daily driver was originally designed to be an infantry scout vehicle and a light missile launch platform for the Shah of Iran and my summer car to dominate touring car racing series in Europe and Asia. Considering that they are equally or even more at home on a mall parking lot, just like the aforementioned calibers and sometimes rifles themselves too are in deer woods, it's more appropriate and relevant to examine their performance for the actual task at hand than refer to associative stigmas of their historic origins. The associations have lost their practical meaning a long time ago, if there ever were any.

While the military origin of 7.62x39 or numerous other rounds is just a detail in their evolutionary history, it may give some secondary advantages like availability of cheap surplus ammo for practise. The real bottom line is ballistic performance, where all these former and current military calibers have proven themselves, hunting four legged game quite efficiently. All that's really needed is a proper hunting bullet and a suitable powder charge to propel it to a desired velocity.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Have ANY of you guys grouped an AK-47 at 100-200 yards? 30/30?

I have (I own an AK as well as Marlin and Winchester 30/30.)

The lever guns are more accurate and a bit more powerful.

Deaf

 

[Phaedrus/69]

Zombies: AK

Deer: 30-30

But which one for Zombie Deer?