Comparison 7.62x39 vs. 30-30

[LoonWulf]

Have ANY of you guys grouped an AK-47 at 100-200 yards? 30/30?

I have (I own an AK as well as Marlin and Winchester 30/30.)

The lever guns are more accurate and a bit more powerful.

Deaf

Yep open sights best i can do with either is about 3"

The scoped vepr i shot held 1.5 for the whole mag. Ive never shot a scoped 94, and only owned one for a couple days before trading it. The marlin 336s ive got some trigger time on, those all shot 1.5-2" no problem

So as a broad statement i think you can say the lever is LIKELY to be more accurate than an entry-level AK. After that tho i feel the both offer the same level of accuracy with quality ammo.

As an aside, the most field experience ive had with the x39 has been from an old rattling sks it shot about 3-5"s (i couldnt hit a soda can reliably at 100). It was my buddies gun and road around in his truck, also killed alot of deer and pigs.

And you need a ksg25 for zombie deer, duh!

Or maybe thqts zombie turkey....i can never remember

 

[hq]

Have ANY of you guys grouped an AK-47 at 100-200 yards?

Of the three I currently have, FEG SA85M averages at 3" w/ Lapua 123gr FMJ, Sako M92S at 1.5" with Sako 123gr SP and Saiga (.308) at 1.2-1.3" with several different 150gr loads, all at 150m/165yd european standard rifle range, all scoped. Saiga has also spent time on 300m/330yd and 600m/660yd ranges with results of 3-3½" and 9-11" respectively, with handloads and Hornady 165gr Superformance factory load. I've tried to stay away from the cheapest AK:s but the Saiga was admittedly a real surprise, outshooting my Sako L579 bolt rifle right out of the box.

 

[Millamber457]

hey for zombies , a 10/22 since it only takes a head hit, why abuse yourself , and you can carry soooo much more ammo

 

[Ks5shooter]

Haven't grouped an AK. My AR in 7.62x39 can do 3 inches at 100-150 yds. 30-30 a little tighter,both with my handloads. I threw the AR into the mix because the OP only stated caliber not AK specificaly.

 

[mavracer]

I have no desire to own a AK

 

[eastbank]

no zombie turkeys, but we do have a few radical turkeys around the holidays. eastbank.

 

[CraigC]

Quite a few of popular hunting cartridges were originally and specifically designed for fighting at a variety of ranges. All the way from .45-70, .30-06 and 7.62x54R to 7x57/8x57, .308/7.62x51, .223/5.56x45 and even .338Lapua. Like my daily driver was originally designed to be an infantry scout vehicle and a light missile launch platform for the Shah of Iran and my summer car to dominate touring car racing series in Europe and Asia. Considering that they are equally or even more at home on a mall parking lot, just like the aforementioned calibers and sometimes rifles themselves too are in deer woods, it's more appropriate and relevant to examine their performance for the actual task at hand than refer to associative stigmas of their historic origins. The associations have lost their practical meaning a long time ago, if there ever were any.

While the military origin of 7.62x39 or numerous other rounds is just a detail in their evolutionary history, it may give some secondary advantages like availability of cheap surplus ammo for practise. The real bottom line is ballistic performance, where all these former and current military calibers have proven themselves, hunting four legged game quite efficiently. All that's really needed is a proper hunting bullet and a suitable powder charge to propel it to a desired velocity.

I'm well aware of all that but unlike the rest you listed, the 7.62x39 has remained pigeon-holed. The round has seen very little adaptation into sporting use. The odd bullet diameter being the most likely culprit. The reputation for relatively poor accuracy, due to the cheap AK's and SKS's folks have been shooting for decades being the other. Same applies double to the 7.62x54R. The cartridges that have succeeded owe much of that to the rifles in which they were originally chambered. There is a long, romantic history with the 1903 Springfield and Mauser 98 that simply does not exist for the Russian rifles and for good reason.

 

[horsey300]

I'm well aware of all that but unlike the rest you listed, the 7.62x39 has remained pigeon-holed. The round has seen very little adaptation into sporting use. The odd bullet diameter being the most likely culprit. The reputation for relatively poor accuracy, due to the cheap AK's and SKS's folks have been shooting for decades being the other. Same applies double to the 7.62x54R. The cartridges that have succeeded owe much of that to the rifles in which they were originally chambered. There is a long, romantic history with the 1903 Springfield and Mauser 98 that simply does not exist for the Russian rifles and for good reason.

I agree about the diameter being a problem, if it's a true 7.62x39 rather than a .308x39, I immediately lose interest. Even handloading I can't make it trip my trigger, I think the few companies making rifles with the .308 bore will help some, but I also have a hard time seeing any sales rep trying to explain the difference between the .308 and 7.62 with either ammo or rifle chambers. I've personally been told the 5.56 is the same as .223 several times. On the other hand, factory loads for the .30-30 aren't as cheap as I remember them being, but also put out higher performance if we're willing to pay, and handloading is an equal prospect for both, depending on the game in question, with the .30-30 beating out the light weights of the 7.62.

 

[Newtosavage]

When my .308 bore Savage digests .310 and .311 ammo like a champ, delivering 1.5" or better at 100, I have no idea why modern rifles like the CZ would still use the larger bore.

 

[LoonWulf]

Id be curious what shooting .308 bullets from a .310 bore x39 would do.
I shot .308s from my .311 Mosin, and im prerry sure my Arisaka is over the .311 bullets im shooting in it. Neither gun showed much loss in accuracy (if any). Velocity wasnt checked on the Mosin, but it does seem low on the Arisaka.

 

[Deaf Smith]

If I had to choose between these two cartridges for all around short range use (25-200yds.) which should I go with? Let's assume AK47 and pre 64 Win model 94 no optics?

So the upshot is this:

30/30s, as a group, TEND to be a bit more accurate and a bit more powerful within the ranges desired. They also tend to be easier to scope, if desired.

AKs simply hold more shots (lots more.)

Both are quite adequate for hogs and even deer up to 200 yards.

Now if I was hog hunting in a stand where the shots are 50/75 yards then the AK might very well give you more 'bacon' (more hogs killed.) And yes, I've thought about using my AK it that very situation without any optics.

But if the ranges are longer the 30/30 might give a better chance of connecting with 'em (especially a little piggy.)

Deer, well if you are presented with a broadside shot, either will do. But if shooting at the south end of a north bound deer at 150 yards, I'd rather have the 30/30 with 170 grain bullets.

So, take your pick and pay your price!

But warning, AKs do cost more than 30/30s, even collectors like my mint Marlin Texan 30/30 made in 69 (the one photoed is my OTHER Texan made in 67 and it is not mint but a great shooter.) A Texan Marlin Carbine, super great shape, cost $500 in my neck of the woods. I know as there is one for sale at that price, 18 inch bbl, but a AK, decent one, will be more. At least $600.

Deaf

 

[horsey300]

When my .308 bore Savage digests .310 and .311 ammo like a champ, delivering 1.5" or better at 100, I have no idea why modern rifles like the CZ would still use the larger bore.

As I said before, .308x39 is still a wildcat until someone adopts it, just like the .22-250 and 6.5x284, there's no standard spec to follow, and while it wouldn't be hard to load up the .308x39, a standardized data sheet exists nowhere for it. Get ruger or savage to adopt it as a norm and test it out for SAAMI and more companies WOULD offer it if enough interest were shown, as it is, buying the cz and barrel swapping is not so impossible as to negate the prospect of a .308x39 cz. Right now the only company offering the 6.5-284 affordably is savage but with enough customer interest that could change in a heartbeat! 6.5 Grendel and .300 bo had to jump through hoops to get where they are too.

 

[denton]

But which one for Zombie Deer?

Good one!

 

[mavracer]

Same applies double to the 7.62x54R. The cartridges that have succeeded owe much of that to the rifles in which they were originally chambered. There is a long, romantic history with the 1903 Springfield and Mauser 98 that simply does not exist for the Russian rifles and for good reason.

The good reason is about a 50 year head start on the surplus market, 7.62X54R is plenty accurate as is the Mosin. Even with the OP's comparison there's not that much difference in the accuracy between the average 94/336 and an AK or SKS.

 

[mshootnit]

I don't know of any 7.62 round that works as well as the Hornady Leverution.

What weight are you referring to?
Going to try 160 this week

 

[mshootnit]

I just looked it up. I'm not really sure what your point is. That was in 1877-78. The model 94 was cutting edge at that time. So was the steam locomotive. Both the lever action and the steam engine worked for what they were supposed to do but we've since come up with better options in both cases.

I believe every American has a responsibility to own and be familiar with detachable magazine fed rifles since that's the closest we can legally get to what the military uses. That's part of being part of the "well regulated militia". That's why I suggested the AK over the lever gun for "all around use" (personally I think the AR is the better option, but that's not what this thread is about).

Did you know nuclear submarines run on steam?

 

[1stmarine]

What weight are you referring to?
Going to try 160 this week

The 160gr ftx are very good rounds. The best? ..it depends because the 190gr Buffalo bore is expensive
but it works as adverised so for close encounters and larger animals that is also a plus.
While energy is similar look at the difference in momentum so as soon as the ranges are realistic
the 190gr will give extra assurance.
Also look at the reload with regular 308 bullets just with the consideration of keeping dummys
staggered as I explained here....

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-7-62x39-vs-30-30.816932/page-2#post-10470213

One thing is clear the 30-30 doesnt easily drop from the mid weight game category while the x39 you need
150gr sp or marginally use 125gr sp. But the x39 is suitable as soon as the ranges are kept real.
The x39 will also benefit enormously from a 18" barrel or even 20" whether is bolt or autoloader.

The differences are obvious. The bullet doesn't lie and the data is clear.
yet there is no better or worse, each has pros and cons depending on ones objectives, likes and dislikes.

 

[bearcreek]

Did you know nuclear submarines run on steam?

Yes, I'm aware of that. Obviously that's not what I was talking about.

 

[hq]

I'm well aware of all that but unlike the rest you listed, the 7.62x39 has remained pigeon-holed. The round has seen very little adaptation into sporting use.

You're right about this. There are some evolutionary niches like 6mm PPC, arguably one of the most accurate calibers in existence and hardcore benchrest/railgun competition favorite, that owes it existence to 7.62x39 via .22 PPC based on .220 Russian, but outside Scandinavia and the Baltics none of the russian and soviet rounds have ever been particularly common except for cheap surplus plinking. On the other hand, Mosins, Winchester 1895:s and other cheap rifles chambered to 7.62x54/7.62x53 grow on trees around here and they're very popular in moose hunting. Bullet diameter of .311-.312 can also be found in the venerable .303 British and 7.7mm Japanese, there are still plenty of Enfields and Arisakas around so handloaders are reasonably well catered for and even .308 diameter bullets can be used in a pinch, but factory loaded hunting ammo of decent quality is limited to half a dozen offerings.

A shame, really. I've had 7.62x39 rifles for decades, hunted with them with whatever ammo has been found at LGS and only recently realized that the round itself can do quite a bit more. The wake-up call, of all things, was a Mini 30 you couldn't hit a barn door with at first and instead of giving up and just passing it on I stubbornly looked into improving both the rifle and the ammo it was fed. With much better results than I initially expected, to the point of it becoming one of my favorite medium game rifles.

 

[eastbank]

boy i would love to own a winchester 95 in 7.62x54R, i have a winchester 95 in 30-40 krag. eastbank.

 

[Newtosavage]

The wake-up call, of all things, was a Mini 30 you couldn't hit a barn door with at first and instead of giving up and just passing it on I stubbornly looked into improving both the rifle and the ammo it was fed. With much better results than I initially expected, to the point of it becoming one of my favorite medium game rifles.

Would love to hear more about this, as I also have a mini-30 that is "minute of barn door" accurate.

 

[hq]

Would love to hear more about this, as I also have a mini-30 that is "minute of barn door" accurate.

Making this off-topic deviation short and sweet: DIY hand lapping and moly coating the barrel, lapping and re-torquing the gas block with a torque wrench, restricting gas flow to the piston and installing buffers improved accuracy threefold. Polishing trigger surfaces made a major difference in practical accuracy too.

 

[salt&battery]

boy i would love to own a winchester 95 in 7.62x54R, i have a winchester 95 in 30-40 krag. eastbank.

to me using a lever action for military use is silly being they are the weakest most complicated repeaters hard to fire prone and if mud or any debris gets in they are jammed up. sure it would be fun to get the 95 and shoot it

 

[LoonWulf]

lapping and re-torquing the gas block with a torque wrench, restricting gas flow to the piston and installing buffers

As Hq said trying not to deviate too much, but that made a difference even on my 581, smaller gas bushing (or adjustable gas block) also keeps you from pinging brass of the poor guy next to you.

 

[1stmarine]

Keep in mind not all the AK are the same. Molot uses thicker and stronger alloy and receivers and beef up everything. The VEPR made on that plant
is more accurate than the average ak specially those put together wiht romanian parts kits and cheap barrels.
You also have then in 20" barrels that is not a lot longer. And 21" sporter version that have pretty decent accuracy with quality brass ammo.
My buddy got one of these and gives 100fps extra with factory loads and 150-200fps extra with reloads that is pretty substantial specially wiht the
150gr bullets. A SKS can also be sporterized and rebarreled with a quality barrel but will not be cheaper nor better and it will be heavier.
One could also put one together based on the RPK kit but savings might be marginal for a quality conversion. But they are fun projects that is for sure.

It is very hard to make any mini14 or mini30 accurate just because of the minor diameter of the barrel ahead of the chamber.
But there is a company called accuracy systems that sells a proprietary gas block and will also do the rebarreling for you if you want along with
several other improvements to fix the problems with the ruger.

Here are the details...

http://www.mini14ranch.com/