Contemplating Rifle build, caliber?

[kmw1954]

Early last spring I picked up a Savage Model 11 barreled receiver in 243. The intention was to use this to build an inexpensive target rifle and was actually just looking for the receiver action. The thought was to barrel this with a Prefit barrel from Northland Shooters into a 6mmBR on advice from the guys shooting the rifle league at the range I work PT. Then before that happened I came across a great deal on a Savage Model 12 Varmint barrel take off in 223 that had never been fired other than the factory testings. At this time I had been shooting a Save M 10 in 223. This is what I am currently shooting and it is doing well..
Now my thoughts once again turn to rebarreling this after our league season is over. I have been hemming and hawing back and forth about the direction to go as to caliber for this. Either once again a 223 in a heavy target profile with a 7.5:1 Twist or back to the original thought of 6mm BR..

The range that this will mostly be used at is limited to a max of 300yds. but regularly at 100/200/300yds... The target size is generally in the .5/1.0 MOA and shooting for bulls and score.. At this distance I am trying to determine which caliber offers the best all around value. Advantages and disadvantages. What do I gain from moving from the 223 to 6mm?

I know there are 4 members here that are shooting long range and Bench Rest type platforms so I am hoping to really hear your thoughts and suggestions. Yes costs play a part in this. I believe components are cheaper to obtain and the 223 uses a bit less powder. Also I already am set up to reload the 223 whereas with the 6mm I would need to retool.

 

[dcloco]

Believe you answered your question.

When contemplating a new build, have always checked pricing AND availability on brass/bullets/powder for the build. Also plan on any needed accessories that might be needed (new scope?? , bipod, mag(s), etc, etc).

6br brass is expensive. $1 to $2 per case. 243/ 6mm bullets - 25 cents to 80 cents each - depending on what you want.

 

[Bronco72]

I guess it comes down to just how serious you think you will get into the sport!
If you think you might get bit by the bug, check out what the constant competitors are using!

 

[R.W.Dale]

I always liked to build these into weird calibers for a heavy bolt action. My first was a 7.62x39 using a shilen bbl that shot amazing with good bullets. Later I built a long barreled supersonic 300blk on a criterion tube that didn't do as good. So I reamed that to 30/30 but haven't shot it much yet in the years since

 

[12Bravo20]

If that 223 varmint barrel is anything like all the Savage varmint barrels I have, then it should be a good and accurate barrel.

I have a Savage Model 12 in 308 with the heavy varmint barrel along with two Savage MkII rimfire rifles (GLV in 17m2 and BTVLSS in 22lr) and both have the heavy varmint barrel. All three shoot exceptionally well.

 

[Random 8]

How about 6x45? At least you'll save on the brass reforming 223

 

[kmw1954]

I guess it comes down to just how serious you think you will get into the sport!
If you think you might get bit by the bug, check out what the constant competitors are using!

That is what has me asking and questioning which way to go. This local league has 19 shooters as one dropped out already. I am the only one shooting a 223. Most are shooting some form of 6mm, three are shooting 308, one is shooting a 7mm08 and I believe three are shooting 6.5mm, no one is shooting a 25cal.. Just remembered one is now shooting a 30BR.

Part of me is enjoying shooting this 223 and am seriously curious just what it would do with a Shilen barrel with a 7.5:1 twist and 77 to 85gr bullets. Then there are also the 223 variants. So out to only 300yds is there an advantage of one caliber over another?

 

[R.W.Dale]

o out to only 300yds is there an advantage of one caliber over another?

Inside 300 No not in terms of accuracy. Or at least not to any measureable degree without being an extremely proficient shooter with the absolute best optics and benchrest loading techniques and components

Instead focus on things like reloading costs, component availability or just cartridges you kinda like.

 

[Varminterror]

Match results disagree with the claim of no difference between calibers at 100-300yrds. Flat based, lightweight 6PPC and 6BR rule the roost.

6BR and 223rem will be both exceptionally well served by Varget, but ~10% more in the BR case. 6BR cases cost more than 223rem, and 6mm bullets cost more than 22 cal. But I’ve never seen a rifle match trophy for “Cheapest ammo.” Group size and points win matches, not pennies saved per round.

I love shooting 223, and it can do great things at 100-300yrds, but if I were ordering a new barrel for that match format, it would be a 6 BR or 6 PPC.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Match results disagree with the claim of no difference between calibers at 100-300yrds. Flat based, lightweight 6PPC and 6BR rule the roost.

6BR and 223rem will be both exceptionally well served by Varget, but ~10% more in the BR case. 6BR cases cost more than 223rem, and 6mm bullets cost more than 22 cal. But I’ve never seen a rifle match trophy for “Cheapest ammo.” Group size and points win matches, not pennies saved per round.

I love shooting 223, and it can do great things at 100-300yrds, but if I were ordering a new barrel for that match format, it would be a 6 BR or 6 PPC.

We all love to fantasize about being "that guy" in a match. But to be really real you aren't going to be "that guy" shooting a savage action you built ourself. "That guy" spends more money on projectiles a month than your vehicle payment. He has a scope that costs more than your entire gun collection, his rest cost more than the rifle you are shooting. He has a range at his home with which he can practice daily.

If something boring and mundane like 223 gets you twice as many practice shots in per your shooting budget. I'd choose that every day of the week and twice on Sundays as opposed to a theoretically more accurate round. Especially at the level the op is at not even knowing if he has a match next year.

You could shoot a well built 1 in 9 223 for YEARS inside 300 before you maxed out it's accuracy capabilities with skill, your reloading abilities and all the supporting items to spend money on

No shooting the cheapest stuff possible doesn't help. But neither will switching 30br when v max bullets loaded on a lee turret press shot through an east Asian scope. Winning is about the ENTIRE package and the shape of that case is one of the absolute least important considerations

 

[kmw1954]

Thanks folks, and this is a perfect example with posts 9 and 10 of were I am at and what I keep hearing from friends at the range. Both addressing both calibers and both from different perspectives with still differing perspectives on each.

So as I have progressed in this endeavor I have started to move up to better quality components as I think my skill level warrants it. Will add that over the past year or two with all of your folks help I have improved greatly so don't think I am not listening to what you are all telling me. Just need to progress at my own rate I guess. Prove a few things to myself at the same time.

I was kind of at that point of, "If something boring and mundane like 223 gets you twice as many practice shots in per your shooting budget.". I still feel I need that trigger time yet still feel I can still improve with what I have and then maybe even moreso with an equipment upgrade. Example, today I worked as RO on our 200/300yd range and because of the weather we were dead so I shot. Took time to sight in and get dope for 300 yds as that is what our league distance is this week. Shot 50 rounds and when done felt that I could have shot another 50.

BTW my friend and mentor just yesterday picked up 2 more identical 6 Dasher barrels for now a total of 4. He is sold. So I am aware of how quickly these barrels can go away. Learning that these barrels can be considered as Consumables!

 

[Varminterror]

The entirety of the last post by @R.W.Dale is just gate-keeping Fuddery, and it’s obvious from his language that he has absolutely no idea of which he speaks.

I know a lot of “that guy” guys - maybe I am one also? - and none of what he describes is true, and frankly, I can name 3 of us on this forum with Savage 12’s which print ridiculously small groups, both of the other guys absolutely being “that guy” guys… @Nature Boy and @South Prairie Jim have more into their Savages than do I, but any of our rifles will print itty bitty groups most guys will never experience.

223rem does not offer twice as much shooting for the budget if you’re comparing the same quality of ammunition.

Brass: 223 = 70¢/pc, 6BR = $1.10
Powder: 223 = ~24grn/rnd 6BR = 28g
Bullets: 77smk = 38¢/ea, 105 Hybrid = 43¢
Primers: same SRP

Counting on 20 firings on brass, 14¢/primer, and $43/lb varget after tax or shipping, we’re talking 77¢/shot for 6BR, and 68¢/shot for 223. The gap is a nickel on bullets, and about 3¢/shot difference in powder use and brass cost…

Stop pretending only the rich can attain small groups, and stop gatekeeping to pretend extreme precision is unattainable expensive.

@kmw1954 - watching your posts, progress, and performance, I’ll state plainly - you shoot well enough to capitalize on the benefits of a 6 BR short range cartridge like 6 ppc or BR or Dasher over a 223. So if you’re rebarreling, pick a six.

 

[tarosean]

Stop pretending only the rich can attain small groups, and stop gatekeeping to pretend extreme precision is unattainable expensive.

you mean money doesnt buy skill?
All those advertisers have lied to me?

 

[nettlle]

I recently bought a rifle chambered in 308. Bought the rifle because I liked it and 308 was only caliber it came in. My first 308. After working up some reloads for it this has become one of my favorite rifle calibers. 308 not cheap to reload for.

 

[JFrank]

Savage model 12 chambered in a 6 br will definitely get the job done out to 600 yards, I’ve also shot them out to a 1000 but they don’t have quite enough speed to hold up in the wind against a dasher or the Br Ackley. I never see 223 beyond local level matches.
Added; once a fella starts shooting a 6 Br they realize that they didn’t need as much practice as suggested just a better caliber choice.

 

[JFrank]

When you start shooting a br you’ll see the difference right away.

 

[Varminterror]

once a fella starts shooting a 6 Br they realize that they didn’t need as much practice as suggested just a better caliber choice.

^ I’m stealing this, amigo. That’s really a quite powerful and astute aphorism.

 

[Nature Boy]

Part of me is enjoying shooting this 223 and am seriously curious just what it would do with a Shilen barrel with a 7.5:1 twist and 77 to 85gr bullets.

Here you go…

I set this Savage 12 BVSS for my son to shoot F/TR matches at 600 yards. I put a 30” 1:7 Shilen select barrel with an ISSF chamber throated for the long .223 bullets (i.e. anything up to and including 90 VLDs)



It’s a laser with the 90 VLDs

100 yards






500 yards





In comparison, I’m shooting a very customized 6BR Ackley in 600 yard F Open matches. The difference being better performance in the wind due to a higher BC bullet and 200 fps.



500 yards



I think it really comes down to whether you’re ready to invest in another caliber/cartridge. If not and you just want to upgrade the .223 with a better barrel I don’t think you’re giving up too much to your competition at 300 yards.

 

[JFrank]

@Nature Boy is the man !!!

 

[Walkalong]

We all love to fantasize about being "that guy" in a match. But to be really real you aren't going to be "that guy" shooting a savage action you built ourself. "That guy" spends more money on projectiles a month than your vehicle payment. He has a scope that costs more than your entire gun collection, his rest cost more than the rifle you are shooting. He has a range at his home with which he can practice daily.

If something boring and mundane like 223 gets you twice as many practice shots in per your shooting budget. I'd choose that every day of the week and twice on Sundays as opposed to a theoretically more accurate round. Especially at the level the op is at not even knowing if he has a match next year.

There is merit to this statement, and since you already have it, it doesn't hurt to start with a cheaper rifle that's cheaper to run when you are not at a level where you can take advantage of the best yet. Yes, if you have any rifle shooting skills you will out grow it soon, but then you can start upgrading, and you'll know better what you need after competing with guys with better equipment.

But VT is correct as well, especially if you don't have any equipment yet. When I started shooting registered Benchrest matches I bought top notch (used) equipment, and never regretted it, plus it holds value. When I started PRS I cheaped out (somewhat) to start, got aggravated with the performance of the rifle (Yea, used to top notch by then), and upgraded to top notch very quickly.

Both ways will end up where you need to be/where your skill level takes you, not everyone ends up being competitive, but everyone has fun, or they would stop coming.

Since you have the .223, start with it and see how far it can take you, you'll know when it can't scratch the itch any more, but by then you'll have a better idea what you really need if you get serious.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Without getting too close to a personal attack like one post above t's clear varminterror hasn't shot any any kind of organized rifle match. Wishing it doesn't turn into a money infused exercise in diminishingly small returns dominated by individuals with unlimited time and resources doesn't make that true.

The op is by all indication a good shot. But the fact remains that the differences in accuracy potential INSIDE 300 is so small that any improvements going to a true benchrest round would be pure placebo at this point. In fact if he doesn't have the kinds of neck turning and measuring equipment some of these calibers require he could in fact hurt himself with a less accurate combo

It's not even a question. With where he is today there's any number of things that this investment would be better spent netting more return for accuracy and consistency than an exotic cartridge which would only further drain resources and time invested behind the trigger.

Now if you just WANT a rifle chambered in something unusual that's completely OK too. Just do it

 

[Nature Boy]

Keep in mind that if you decide to convert your savage to 6BR you’ll also need a new bolt head.

Also a note on the benefits of a higher BC bullet. Foregoing all the calculations, a 6mm 105 VLD will be less effected by the wind than a .22 90 VLD. Important but only fractionally so between 100 and 300.

Regardless of the cartridge, everyone has to hold for the wind. It’s the great equalizer.

 

[Nature Boy]

it's clear varminterror hasn't shot any any kind of organized rifle match.

you might want to check-fire-hold on that assumption

 

[R.W.Dale]

you might want to check-fire-hold on that assumption

I don’t care seeing as we’re allowed to make personal attacks based on unbased assumptions in this particular thread for whatever reason.

 

[kmw1954]

Boy's lets play nice! I deal enough with this reading the loading forum when it comes to presses.
But overall this is the type of feedback I was hoping to generate and much of it mirrors what I am being told by my friends at the range. I think I follow and understand the arguments made for and against both cartridges but it in not helping me make a decision.

As for the ammunition costs I don't really see any big cost increase in in moving to the 6.. Even at 25c a piece increase isn't a deal breaker. Then I also see that powders and bullets are all becoming available again with the bottleneck still being primers. The initial investment of new brass and then reloading tools I'm thinking I can buy as I am still shooting what I have to spread the cost over a little more time.. Again you folks have helped and guided me well in improving my reloading technique. For years all I ever loaded was pistol rounds. So yes 6mm may cost a bit more to reload than the 223 but not enough to make any real difference.

The Rifle.. I started with this back only a couple years ago with a lightly used Savage Axis 223 and I enjoyed it tremendously. So much so that a few months later I found a nice used Savage Model 10 223, which is what I shot last year for this league and I did with it what I set out to do and that was Not Finish Last. Finished 4th from last, . Then last spring I found that barreled action, from another member here on this forum, which was originally intended to become a 6MM BR. Rebarreled with that Model 12 Varmint barrel it is still serving me well.

With the Savage action and what I had invested I still knew it would not compete with the leaders here but it has served as a fine entry level tool and has provided a platform that I could cheaply develop my interest and skills. It has served it intended purpose. So right now I am at the "What is the next step?".. This is about the best way I can describe where I am at with this. Still don't believe I am to the point that I am going to go all out and spend big dollars on a custom built rifle. $1500.00 on an action. $400.00 on a barrel, $600.00+ on a chassis, then a trigger and then the expense of a gunsmith to blueprint it. Then another $1000.00 on glass.

So when I entered into this and after talking with the guys at the range I knew this was an entry level platform for a newb shooter and that I would take this as far as it could go and take this setup To the Limit, maybe another new barrel as I said in a faster twist to try some heavier bullets.