Contention (and facetiousness) aside...

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Captain O

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Why are shooters having so much difficulty with the AR platform? I keep reading about this different caliber causing feeding difficulties. Then it is another not ejecting properly, ad nauseam. I thought the 7.62 x 51, 5.56 x 45 and 7.62 x 39 had everything under control? :confused:

Shouldn't the problems have been worked out more than 50 years ago? If not, why not? :confused:

I'm listening.
 
1. People with no trouble don't complain. The complaints you are hearing is a small percentage of the millions of AR owners.

2. There are a lot of new AR owners in the last couple of years and most have no idea what they are doing or don't care. They mess it up.

I've had a dozen or more ARs and currently have 5. I have rarely had an issue. Most of the AR owners I know are experienced AR owners and they don't have many issues.
 
AR's come in all levels of quality.

And other people are putting them together at home like Tinker Toys.
With varying levels of parts, or building skill, or even a basic grasp of what the end result should be.

I have a 1971 Colt that has never missed a beat in 45 years!

rc
 
I believe you both.

The platform must be good (or the Government would have dumped it decades ago).

Some people handle these rifles as if they were "tinker toys". Others buy a "lower end" product and spend countless hours "improving" it. I guess they have the disposable income to "perfect" their AR pistol/rifle. I wouldn't want to "fix" what shouldn't be absolutely necessary. :scrutiny: :banghead:

No disrespect, but why buy "inexpensive" then pour excessive amounts of money and man-hours to correct the issues/problems?
 
i have one AR and I'm sure every "problem" (all two times :D) have been my reloads when I was playing with rather light loads. I'm over that now and the rifle runs very well.

As to the "basic, low level" gun and the effort to perfect it...I'm sure lots of those guys just like to "test and learn". Kind of proving the idea of an AR being a mans expensive toy. We are allowed to make experimental changes and then discuss the whys and wherefores of how to fix it. Its all for fun.


i'm just thinking out loud here. I'm certainly not good at tinkering on these guns.

Mark
 
People order 20 of the cheapest parts they can find, all from different manufacturers, slap them together without proper tools and complain when it needs tweaking/tuning to run.

When you buy quality parts from first rate companies and assemble them correctly, its amazing how few problems you ever have.
 
My 1972 Colt AR functioned flawlessly.....

rcmodel.... remember when the CAR.... were the only ones on the market....
 
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Some people handle these rifles as if they were "tinker toys". Others buy a "lower end" product and spend countless hours "improving" it. I guess they have the disposable income to "perfect" their AR pistol/rifle. I wouldn't want to "fix" what shouldn't be absolutely necessary. :scrutiny: :banghead:

No disrespect, but why buy "inexpensive" then pour excessive amounts of money and man-hours to correct the issues/problems?

:rolleyes:

One of these again.

Not everyone is made out of money, and it's easier to justify multiple smaller expenses spaced over the course of months than it is the make one large purchase. Holiday season lay away programs are evidence of this.

So yes, it may be easier for someone to buy a $550 AR-15, low end, bottom of the budget AR, then spend an additional, unknown amount over the subsequent weeks, months, even years, to get the equivalent of a $1550 higher end AR.

Individual parts purchased individually, in my experience, can be slightly more expensive than buying them as a whole in a custom gun, but again, not everyone can drop that much all at once.

The major expense in AR's comes in certain components. Receivers are generally inexpensive and one is generally as good as any other. Barrels, bolts, and trigger groups are where the expense comes in. Hand guards run the gamut from super cheap chinese aluminum stuff to American top brand name. They all generally do the same, and unless it's a true "go-to-war" firearm, a cheap chinese hand guard will serve just fine. As will a $40 Magpul, which are outfitted on a lot of USGI rifles and carbines.

A cheap AR can run side by side with high end AR's for a good 80% or more of typical use. That 20% is the true, hard run work that 99% of AR owners simply don't or won't put through their guns.

As for "man hours".... that's just laughable. With very little experience, someone can assemble an AR from nothing but a pile of parts in maybe two hours. With experience, it can be done while watching TV in an hour, all without the use of specialty tools. An AR armorers wrench can be had for $15, so there's no reason not to have one.

I pulled and replaced a fire control group from my AR pistol, installed an enhanced FCG, and reinstalled the pulled FCG into another build all in less than thirty minutes last weekend. And because I enjoy tinkering, changing, upgrading and so on, it's not work, it's not tedious, it's not a chore.

Because it's relatively easy to buy an inexpensive AR-15 and spend the time and money to upgrade it over the course of time, the question is why would someone buy a $1500+ AR and settle for what they get, just to justify the price they paid?

I guess they have the disposable income to "perfect" their AR pistol/rifle.

I guess I do. So what?

I wouldn't want to "fix" what shouldn't be absolutely necessary.

Replacing a FCG with something better, or a hand guard to something different isn't "fixing" the gun. It's improving function, it's customizing to a personal liking.
Sure, I'll replace parts if/ when they break. It's expected that eventually you'll need to replace a firing pin or an extractor spring, that's basic maintenance. That's fixing something that's absolutely necessary. Replacing functional components with different functional components is not "fixing."
 
If your AR has rifle ramps all you need is a bad magazine to stop the show. Cheap ammo does not help.
 
Why are shooters having so much difficulty with the AR platform? I keep reading about this different caliber causing feeding difficulties.

Do you have any threads you can reference? I've looked on this forum through the threads for the past 6 months and can't find any relating to feeding difficulties.

AR's will have problems with cartridges that are too long, or weak loads that don't fully cycle the bolt.

I have a .223 AR and a .308 and neither of my rifles has ever failed to feed. That's purely empirical data - but, so are the threads claiming to have feeding problems.
 
I finished an AR pistol build in time for deer season last year, buying the most economical parts on the market available at that time of the build.

It shot and functioned flawlessly from the first round. I didn't have fancy trick parts or attempted a new unique type of gas system, mostly GI all the way. If anything the Anderson stainless trigger kit was not milspec, but it seems to be a lot better than the Brand "GI" one I bought for a previous build at twice the price.

The major issue with builder's having malfunctions comes down to the same major issues service rifle users have - bad magazines, bad ammo, and a complete lack of knowledge of how to operate the weapon.

The AR is highly dependent on using full power service ammo and cheap fodder loaded to bolt gun standards causes most of the cyclic malfunctions. This gun does not tolerate ammo that is out of spec with the gas system - unlike a shotgun with compensating valves, an AR/M16/M4 typically is only shot with issued ammo specifically loaded to make sure it cycles - no shortchange the action to create problems. There is a reason that GI ammo is limited in types and loads - it MUST perform in 20" guns as well as 10.5" SBR's.

Cheap import fodder has no such requirement and if there are complaints about malfunctions most are directly related to the cheap import ammo. Run low powered ammo in a .45 ACP and the same would happen. It's like shooting .380 in a 9mm. Expect issues.

It IS very much an issue that so many spend far more than is needed to construct a rifle with parts far above and beyond the proven needs of a combat rifle. Coatings, colors, special tooling, modified charging handles. optics that cost more than some other builds. And yet, overall, when the subject of ammo comes up, specifying and recommending premium ammo is tantamount to suggesting we should all drink Krug champagne - astonishment prevails that someone has the money to waste. For the most part I would be astonished, too, since the majority of shooters seem to be entirely happy with poking holes in a dirt berm. Downrange performance seems to be the special province of precision shooting, or those bloody minded hunters who kill.

Well, just what was the design purpose of the combat rifle in the first place? Apparently as a token of social rank for the most part, with additional awards and merit badges displayed in lengthy lists used as signature lines. The top rated ones seem to start with the Brand names associated with expensive lowers - which frankly don't do anything to aid accuracy or reliability as the working parts of the action are all in the UPPER. But the lower has the cool artwork and name on it, which impresses everyone who handles the highly prized and priced artifact of masculinity.

I could go on . . .

My cheap parts gun works fine and shoots exactly as expected. It's just the bullet launcher, feed it crap and that is the results you get. More shooters could do themselves a favor either reloading or just taking the time to place rounds with more care rather than finance a cheap and inefficient method of churning up dirt.

Reread their posts in aggregate and you get the bigger picture.
 
Parts and cheapness!

Cutting cost corners on "builds" or outright purchase to save money has been far and away the single greatest source of failures in my experience.

After that it's definitely crap ammo. Shooter's reloads, gun-show zip-lock bag reloaders and sometimes crappy, non-compatible factory like some steel cased stuff.

In short, there ain't a doggone thing wrong with the "platform" but rather shooter's choices.

Look at the wealth of threads asking how/where can I get cheap parts/guns relating to ARs.



Todd.
 
I've had an Armalite AR for 10-ish years. I've run around 2-3k rounds of M855 through it without a single FTE/FTF. I also have a SAI Standard M1A, that if you listened to Internet conventional wisdom, is supposed to be junk but I've run 3-4K through it without a single failure.

Maybe I'm just lucky, or maybe there's a herd mentality sometimes on the internet where a few guys have an issue and before long there's hundreds of posts across multiple forums, with "experts" authoritatively declaring an entire company or weapon platform as junk, even though they've never had any personal experience with it.

We've all seen it happen.
 
Agree on cheap parts in home builds being the biggest source of problems followed closely by lousy ammo.

I put together AR's as a hobby. I've built all of mine, some for friends, some for family, even a few for our local cops as personal rifles. Buying cheap parts equals a cheap rifle. Sometimes you can find good parts at very good prices. But choosing cost over quality will bite you every time. What I tell everyone when they start buying parts is to plan on half the cost of the rifle in barrel and bolt. Then buy good magazines and good ammo. Almost everything else is personal preference, as far as parts and configuration.

Knowing how they're supposed to fit together and function helps, too. I heard one guy advocate sitting on the receiver instead of a vise for barrel installation. Proper tools and technique goes a long way. Would you let a mechanic change your oil or tires with a crescent wrench?
 
Frankly I see a lot of people running ARs, and I see very few problems with them - at least the ones using the .223 or SPC bolt face in the small platform and the .308 bolt face in the big platform. Trying to cram something bigger than that into the AR action typically causes a problem. I see MANY more problems per-capita with other common autos - M1/M14, Garands, Mini14s (by FAR the worst), AKs (2nd worst), M1 carbines, BARs, 750s, 10/22s.

When there is a problem, it's usually attributable to either a worn magazine, out of spec ammo, or running a dirty gun dry.

I would go so far as to say the AR is the single most reliable auto action out there. It works fine.
 
More of anything in use, more traffic on interwebs can mean more "complaints", numerically speaking. But given the huge quantity of AR, in all the chamberings, all the junk parts (more and more made in other countries !) all kinds of people wrenching without true knowledge or really a clue of how the gas system works - I am surprised there aren't MORE complaints. Talk to people with AR's - most sort of know how things move, but don't know exactly how the gas drives. They rarely have isues, but then again most guns are over gassed so they don't know the gas key is leaking or there is burr in cam pin way and get away with it. But run on marginal ammo or try a less gassy caliber, that same gun owner may learn how to have a sewing machine smooth BCG. Which is something I am huge fan of in any AR.
 
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It's been my experience (and that of others I know) that most AR-15 rifles will perform satisfactorily "out of the box"; they're generally not firearms that require a lot of "tweaking and buffing" to get them running. I also think they are fairly tolerant when it comes to digesting a broad range of factory ammunition. I believe most shooters will be served well with any decent, moderately-priced AR-15.

Replacing parts, changing the configuration or adding accessories as time goes on is part of the "adventure" with owning an AR-15 for some shooters and sometimes can actually improve the performance of the rifle (changing the stock trigger for an after-market "up-grade" is one example).

You can pay a lot of money up front at first or pay money at a gradual pace that your income can justify over time to end up with the AR-15 of your dreams. It's a good "dilemma" to have. :)
 
I've never built an AR that wasn't 100% reliable. Built right, the things never seem to fail.

-Use quality parts. Colt, BCM, KAC, Noveske, LMT, or better. Sometimes cheaper parts are OK, but you need to know what to look for. Mas Defense is a good parts source.

-Use quality ammo. Federal rules IME.

-Use quality mags.
 
I don't have a great amount of AR experience,but I've seen lower cost guns that are incredibly reliable.My own Bushmaster has digested hundreds of rounds of a lot of different ammo.It ranges from my handloads tuned to it to el cheapo stuff that shouldn't be shot in anything unless it's all you got.A buddy of mine just plunked down major bucks for a 10 in 6.5 Creedmore and it won't half function,and when it does,it looks like you were shooting it offhand.Too many builders(using that term loosely)are putting together showpiece rifles that don't function like they should.It's ok to brag about the high end barrel or BCG or trigger,but if you're gonna brag it up to me,it better live up to the hype.There are lots of variables in any rifle build,and they need to be worked out.The AR's I've been around are most all reliable,accurate firearms,but there are rat turds in any barrel of wheat.A mix of bad or incompatible components can make any gun junk,and then there's the ammo...some of it's so bad that pressure levels vary so much that it can't work.
 
It's very hard to make a 6.5 Creedmoor NOT work if you can get your .308 platform to work, since they have the same bolt face, rough diameter, OAL, and pressure.

That would be remarkably frustrating - who built the gun?
 
Home build AR's can be amazing or they can be rubbish. I've seen quite a few bad builds. I purchased a cheap, "bad" AR at a show because it wouldnt function. I got home, flipped the low profile gas block (one with a complete pass through for the gas tube) around to face the right direction and it worked perfectly...:rolleyes:
 
IMO, I think the problem is two-fold. First, there's some decent money in selling AR parts. The internet is full of fly-by-night parts suppliers who source out the cheapest inported crap they can find, mark it up ten times then put it out there on a do-it-yourself website.

The second problem is all of the new/inexperienced shooters who find out it's easy and cheap to build your own. Many have no idea what they're doing and even less idea of how the AR platform functions. Not so much on THR, but pretty often on other forums I read guys saying " ...I'm new to the AR and built my first one in two hours last night". That says it all. If you have the knowledge and some experience you might be able to do a good build in two hours but many of these people have no idea what they're doing which is obvious by the questions they ask when their newly built AR fails to function properly.
 
IMO, I think the problem is two-fold. First, there's some decent money in selling AR parts. The internet is full of fly-by-night parts suppliers who source out the cheapest inported crap they can find, mark it up ten times then put it out there on a do-it-yourself website.

The second problem is all of the new/inexperienced shooters who find out it's easy and cheap to build your own. Many have no idea what they're doing and even less idea of how the AR platform functions.

Exactly my point.
 
I think it is due to a couple of problems. The first is a problem the Army created. The Army is ultra conservative and does not like change. The Army likes what it has, wants something better but only a little different, and totally rejects revolutionary change. Going from a wood stock to a plastic stock is for the Army, revolutionary change.

The Army was used to its Garands and the eight round clips the ammunition came on. The Infantry school wanted ammunition on clips and did not want magazines. There is a very long position letter in the book US Rifle M14 - from John Garand to the M21. The user claims that magazines are heavy, magazines are expensive, and they don't want magazines. If you look at the M14, it has a stripper clip guide on top of the receiver. Early training videos show the rifle being loaded with five round stripper clips and when the rifle was issued at Camp Perry, extra magazines were not given to the competitors. They all loaded their rapid fire rounds with stripper clips.

I have tried to load the thing with stripper clips and it is a thumb buster.

M1aactiontopview_zps63f29274.jpg


Stoner responded by giving the Army what it wanted: cheap, lightweight aluminum magazines. I will bet that the magazines were called "disposable" when promoting the weapon. One should always worry about getting what you want, and for the Army, it got cheap, lightweight magazines that are also unreliable. In time the lips spread and the rifle jams. The outside dimensions of the magazine are fixed, so there is not all that much you can do to redesign the thing and until recently, all product improvements have failed. But the PMAG plastic magazines seem to be an improvement. Plastic technology has improved to the point that plastic magazines are more reliable than the older aluminum magazines.

Another source of unreliability has been the lack of taper in the round. This round came out in the era of the Ackley Improved. A lot of nonsense and snake oil was within the shooting community about the "goodness" of straight walled cartridges, still is, but taper is good for a round. Tapered rounds steer better, feed better, and don't drag on extraction as when the case wall relaxes off the chamber, it relaxes off a diagonal instead of a straight line. The 223 round is very straight and it drags on extraction. And then, being so straight, alignment with the bore is critical on feed. Given the combination of weak aluminum feed lips, precise alignment with the chamber, there is no doubt why most of the malfunctions I have seen are failures to feed, even in well maintained and clean rifles. This one occurred while I was officiating the line during sitting rapid fire.

DSCF3453MagazineJam1_zpsaaf769c5.jpg

DSCF3453MagazineJamenlarged_zps20c891ff.jpg

DSCF3455Magazineroundjam_zps11e864ea.jpg

The 223 Remington was a wild cat developed on a shoe string budget, at Hutton's Ranch north of Los Angeles.

The 5.56mm cartridge was designed by Robert Hutton, then technical editor of Guns & Ammo magazine and owner of a California range. He responded to Army requirements for a round for the AR-15 whose projectile would exceed Mach 1 at 500 meters, a high standard for that time. Hutton teamed with Gene Stoner of Armalite to produce the winning design, a .222 with a longer case and 55 grain Sierra boat tail bullet. [See Guns & Ammo Annual for 1971].
http://olive-drab.com/od_firearms_ammo_556mm.php


A cadre of high velocity small bore fan boys created this round, and Robert Hutton as interested as he might have been, he is the typical gun writer sort, a confident idiot lacking in the technical ability to sweat the details. The sort of analysis necessary to develop a well designed round was not available and it shows. Feed and extraction issues are the greatest source of unreliability in the weapon system.
 
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