defending against multiple teens

[jahwarrior]

this happened tuesday night. i went with my sister-in-law shopping. on the way back, we saw a group of between 12-15 teens right in front of the house we share with neighbors. 4 of them were even standing on the porch. 2 guys were fighting, and i could see one was the neighbor's kids. he wasn't doing too badly against the other guy, but it looked like some of the others were getting ready to jump in to join the fun. sis parks the car 20 feet from the house, i jump out and start yelling to get the frell off of the porch. the 4 kids moved, but casually. my neighbor's 16 year old kid, who i'll call Brian, was still fighting this man, who i now recognized as a 20-something local drug dealer named Josh, and getting the better of him. i would have let it finish, but this man grabbed a screwdriver that was on the ground. i moved to stop him, but Brian grabbed a skateboard and let him have it behind his neck. when 3 of this scumbag's friends moved in, i put my hand on my holster, and shouted for them to back the frell up. they backed up, eyes wide, and started to chatter amongst themselves. the fight was pretty much over by then. the druggie walked off with his friends, talking the usual ghetto smack about how this aint over, you gonna git yours, yadda yadda yadda. i asked Brian what the heck was that all about. he said the dope slinger had tried to get his 14 yr old sister to smoke weed with him and some of his buddies. when she refused, he insulted her, and verbally threatened her. Brian, being a good brother and good kid, didn't take it well. it turns out this Josh has a history of trying to dope up teenage girls for sex. so, IMO, the beating he got was well deserved.

my question is this: i never drew my gun, but i did expose it. if the other kids (i'm sure most were under 18) did decide to jump in, and started to beat Brian seriously, would i have been justified drawing my weapon? firing it? for a few seconds, i was really very scared that i might have to shoot a kid. remember, 12-15 gangbanging teens versus 1 teen and an armed adult. there is another thread similar to this situation, but that involved two men in a car. i wasn't being attcked, but i wasn't going to watch this kid be beaten by a gang. i welcome any and all opinions, thoughts, etc.

 

[Heavy Metal Hero]

Uh...why did you let them continiue to fight? I am sorry but that was incredibly stupid. What if the young kid had been seriously hurt or killed?

 

[Norton]

Not being in a CCW state, it's tough for me to count myself as an authority. However, I did recently complete a course that counted for CCW certification of training.

One of the things that the instructor made clear was that you were only able to shoot while protecting your life or the life of others.

Seems to me that in this case you met that standard.

I'm very interested in hearing what folks that live in the United States.....er, I mean outside of MD.....that have CCW have to say on this situation.

Glad it turned out like it did with everyone walking away breathing and you not having to make the decision to shoot.

 

[johndoe1027]

In NC if you are defending someone that is about to be killed you are justified.

Posting what state you are in might get you some more relevant answers.

 

[old_22LR]

Be alert retaliation will be coming soon.

 

[RoadkingLarry]

I would hope that a police report was made and charges filed.

 

[357goBOOM]

Seems to me that when the BG grabbed the screwdriver it was time to clear leather. Clearly, his intent was to use it as a (deadly) weapon.

Had you shot someone, I think the 12 second-guessers you'd face would be examining what---if any---less-than-lethal tactics you employed before dispatching this "poor youth". For instance,

1. Ordering Brian inside the house to separate the parties. (yeah, I know)

2. Calling for LE assistance.

3. Informing the BG that he either drops the screwdriver or risks getting shot.

4. Any other less-than-lethal tactics that might have been available to you.

From your account, it doesn't sound as though you brandished your weapon in a threatening manner, but were prepared to deploy it into a ready state. And you did this in response to two serious threats to Brian's life safety.

To stay out of serious trouble, we have to be able to demonstrate that we only pull the trigger as a last resort when no other option is available to avoid serious harm or death.

 

[JamisJockey]

357goBOOM Seems to me that when the BG grabbed the screwdriver it was time to clear leather. Clearly, his intent was to use it as a (deadly) weapon.

Had you shot someone, I think the 12 second-guessers you'd face would be examining what---if any---less-than-lethal tactics you employed before dispatching this "poor youth". For instance,

1. Ordering Brian inside the house to separate the parties. (yeah, I know)

2. Calling for LE assistance.

3. Informing the BG that he either drops the screwdriver or risks getting shot.

4. Any other less-than-lethal tactics that might have been available to you.

From your account, it doesn't sound as though you brandished your weapon in a threatening manner, but were prepared to deploy it into a ready state. And you did this in response to two serious threats to Brian's life safety.

To stay out of serious trouble, we have to be able to demonstrate that we only pull the trigger as a last resort when no other option is available to avoid serious harm or death.

Amen and well said.



A fight amongst kids used to be just that. Sometimes things just get settled that way. But the idea that one would grab a screwdriver to finish it off....well....good thing you were there.

 

[meef]

Are you unaware of the Universal Axiom of "No Good Deed Goes Unpunished"?

 

[lacoochee]

First, you should seriously consider a different zip code.

Second, in Florida a 20 year old drug dealer wielding a screw driver is called a target, seriously. You let a young teen fight a gang by himself? You didn't dial 911? You brandished your firearm? And didn't call 911? They know where you live there is no record if the incident filed with the police?

Don't be surprised when the police show up to question you about a report of brandished firearm...and if they don't and the gang members decide to even the score at a time of their own choosing? You are a braver and more prepared man than I am.

I was actually feeling bad about my week...yours was a lot worse.

 

[twinhairdryers]

All others were unarmed, and when a screwdriver

is the only visible weapon coming into play. I would say that you were a bit early pully a piece. Although you could kill with a screwdriver, verbal and then a physical attempt to stop the fight first would be the judicous move. Prior to using any deadly force, or even displaying the possibility, I think you needed to wait until your neighbor involved in the fight, did not have an weapon (skateboard?), and was about to get slashed by the tool in a manner that may have ended his life. Only then would a firearm justifiably come into play. No matter how tempting and threating a huge group of gangbangers may seem, you still need an equivalent level of threat to justifiably shoot a ganger in a fight.

 

[Byron Quick]

You need to be asking your questions of a criminal defense attorney in your state to begin with.

If we knew your state of residence it is possible we could answer your questions with our understanding of your state laws. Even then, you still need to talk with a criminal defense attorney in your state.

If I lived in such a neighborhood, I'd be looking into moving somewhere else. I'd seriously suggest doing so.

You need to get a cellphone and put 911 on the speed dial and then use that speed dial.

If you are carrying concealed and do not already know the answers to the questionsw you asked here, then you are woefully unprepared to defend yourself or others, no matter how many hits you get in the x ring.

1) You need to find out about the laws governing the use of deadly force in your state. Trust me, it's better(and much less painful) to find out about these laws before you use deadly force than to find out about them after you use deadly force.

2) Assess your environment. Basic tenet of strategy-terrain. Sounds as if you might need to change yours to one that offers less opportunity for conflict.

3) Communications: cellphone. Call 911 with it.

4) Rented house? Any chance of getting the landlord to put up a chainlink fence? If you can't move entirely out of the neighborhood, you might want to start looking for a rental house that is more secure physically than the one you're in now.

 

[jahwarrior]

i should have mentioned that the police did get involved. Brian's mom called the police as it happened, they just got there too late; the kids were already gone. they got statements from the people who were there, i informed them that i have a permit (i live in PA), and that i never drew my gun, only put my hand on it. it turns out they know exactly who this dope slinger is; they've been trying to get him on something, but so far, the local DA can't get anything to stick. they gave Brian the "attaboy" for the beating he gave him, saying something along the lines of "hey, he was in your front yard, and he came with numbers." some harrassment may be likely, but any serious reprisal is doubtful (but possible), so a PFA is being filed. if he comes back on our property, we're to call them immediately, but if we have to defend ourselves....they said "you do what you gotta do, guys." sigh, this used to be such a quiet little town. it's not just kids moving here from NYC or Philly, it's the local kids who think they have to be just as tough as them, or are just bored with their small town lifestyle. now we have little baby versions of bloods, crips, latin kings, ms 13, etc.

 

[meef]

if he comes back on our property, we're to call them immediately, but if we have to defend ourselves....they said "you do what you gotta do, guys."

Listen up, friend.

That statement is real, real easy for them to say. They're not the ones who have to live with the aftermath of that oh-so sage advice.

But if a prosecutor who has a hankering to make some political capital at your expense happens to take an interest, one way or another - you're likely to be exceptionally screwed.

Find a new neighborhood is the best advice given thus far.

 

[SomeKid]

meef,

Like many things it is easy to say. Seriously though, would you do anything less than what was needed for you/your family to survive? If the DA tries to make life tough later so be it, at least you and your family will be there. Of course, the alternative, is for your family to end up like those in Connecticut.

Personally, survival first works for me.

 

[mnrivrat]

I don't see a problem - apparently the police didn't either. So you did the right thing .

Keep your eyes open and do what you gotta do to stay safe.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I would say that you were a bit early pully a piece. Although you could kill with a screwdriver, verbal and then a physical attempt to stop the fight first would be the judicous move.

What exactly would a physical attempt to stop the fight be in this situation. I surely hope you don't mean that the OP should have wandered into a crown of thugs to get up close with the 2 combatants. Because if he did that, and the rest decided to attack, having a pistol, or even an AR or shotgun for that matter would be pretty useless. All they would have to do is swarm and pile on, and he probably wouldn't have even been able to get to his weapon.

I'd say you did fine, if a little on the slow-cautious side. But you were there, not me. You had to react, not me. But I definitely think showing a crowd of unruly punks that you have the means to tilt the odds in your favor was totally justified.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Cops & Prosecutors

But if a prosecutor who has a hankering to make some political capital at your expense happens to take an interest, one way or another - you're likely to be exceptionally screwed.

Worth noting.

Police, on the ground, in the trenches, have one view of life.

Prosecutors, whose lives are largely political, have another.

If the police don't feel they need to arrest you, then you may be in the clear.

If the situation develops, and something else happens, or they nab this "dope slinger" and he squeals that "you threatened him with a GUN!" and this piques the interest of one of these political animals, your life could become somewhat more complicated.

Crooks lie. Their lawyers will "represent them" aggressively -- even inventively -- and try to re-frame things to make the crooks the victims.

If the police are on your side, that's a good thing. It may not be everything you need, though.

Do your due diligence.

Make sure your good deed doesn't come back to haunt you.

 

[Cosmoline]

You'd be taking a heck of a chance. As a general matter, you'd only be justified if it appeared the third party was facing imminent and unlawful deadly force. You came in after things had already started. And you really have no idea what was going on or who was to blame. You only have the word of this Brian fellow, who as I understand it was fighting on YOUR porch as much as his own. Plus, you don't know what his sister did to start matters. You just don't know. And assuming something with iron in your hand is about the worst thing you can do.

Unless the situation is 100% crystal clear and you KNOW the third party faces imminent and unlawful deadly force, I would never advise using deadly force to defend them. There are simply too many variables. Not the least of which is the uncertainty of your target when a bunch of idiot teens are running around acting tough.

Whether or not you can brandish I don't know. It's highly variable from state to state. I feel fine doing it up here on my own property, but in other states you can never flash until deadly force is called for.

In that situation, I would have called the cops as soon as I saw the kids on my property. I would never suggest intervening with non-deadly force unless it's a good size garden hose to cool the whole bunch off. Getting into the mosh pile yourself, esp. with a firearm on you, is a recipe for disaster. These aren't six year olds you can yank up by their ears. A teenaged male is fully able to cause you serious harm, and a bunch of them can be real trouble.

Also, maybe I've been around bad neighborhoods too long but my bet is Brian had as much to do with this as anyone else. Don't trust any of them. All teenage males are dangerous, and all are natural liars.

 

[Kentak]

Sounds like a great place to live. Are different living arrangements in the works?

As far as your main question, there's no good answer. Having to draw on someone, or worse, is never going to be pleasant, easy, or without likely consequences, even if you are justified. Too many variable to know how it would shake out.

K

 

[JWarren]

Oh boy....


This could get interesting. Like the drug dealer promised, I seriously doubt this is over.

State laws are going to vary. The realities of self-defense and defense of others do not.

Its easy for me to say this now, but I'll never live in a state again where I have to worry so much over doing the right thing. I used to live in a state like that, and I voted with my feet.


What I am going to say is not legal advice, and it likely could have legal consequences from over-enthusiastic politically-ambitious DAs.


Has anyone considered that HANDS are weapons? People HAVE been beaten to death. If there is a gang of people on one person, I consider that a life-threatening event for that one person. Now, it is a little gray if it is a one-on-one thing with spectators. Still, one person can beat one person to death. Its a judgement call based on what your eyes are telling you.

All others were unarmed, and when a screwdriver is the only visible weapon coming into play. I would say that you were a bit early pully a piece. Although you could kill with a screwdriver, verbal and then a physical attempt to stop the fight first would be the judicous move.

Uhm...are you serious? A screwdriver weilded as a weapon is a lethal weapon. Thinking otherwise will get you killed. He hasn't pulled it out because he just remembered that project he saw on DIY Network.

I think you needed to wait until your neighbor involved in the fight, did not have an weapon (skateboard?), and was about to get slashed by the tool in a manner that may have ended his life.

This isn't "Beyond the Thunderdome." The situation should have been de-escalated immediately regardless of what weapons were on hand.

Were it me, BOTH parties would have been drawn on, instructed to drop the weapons and seperate. Both parties would be warned to keep distance from me and each other. And we'd all wait until the LEO's got there.

This isn't about how appealing it would be to deal with a bunch of gangbangers like Charles Bronson or anything. It is about keeping someone from getting killed stupidly, and it is about making sure you don't get killed in the process. Do you realize how easily something like this could turn on you?


Glad it worked out for the OP. But I seriously doubt this is over. I'd be expecting retaliation both against the boy and very possibly the OP or his family.

"Two men and a Truck" sounds pretty good right now.


-- John

 

[Fred Fuller]

"If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

You don't mention having or carrying a cell phone, or any less lethal force option like pepper spray. It might be worth considering adding these things to your tool kit (if legal in your area of course) to give yourself some options beyond just your sidearm. Not all problems require a lethal level of force or the threat of it.

No matter what the situation with less lethal options in your area, you should be carrying a cell phone any time you carry concealed. There's usually a name for the first person to call police to report a problem- the victim. Otherwise you might get checked off in the police report in the "suspect" block- not the outcome you want, if the dealer reports you for brandishing or threatening him with a weapon. If that happens you can bet his running buddies will swear it happened just like he said. You can't depend on other people to have a phone, to make the call to 911, or to accurately report events to the police- you need to be doing that yourself.

From your description it sounds as if your house is a duplex, and "Brian's" family live there too. You now have an unhappy junior criminal who thinks he has face to save, who has already threatened retaliation, and said criminal has a single target that will do for retaliation against both you and "Brian"- the structure you share. I'd be thinking about that if I were you. Sounds as if someone has, but any kind of protection order is just a piece of paper, and not something criminals have shown much concern over in the past. I'd be investing in a couple of smoke alarms if the place doesn't already have them.

It sounds as if you did what you needed to do and no more, the police reaction would seem to bear that out. But it's a bad situation to have become embroiled in, and it may continue. Be careful...

lpl/nc

 

[Mandirigma]

Are you unaware of the Universal Axiom of "No Good Deed Goes Unpunished"?

I'm well aware, lived it. But just reminds me of another.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
-Edmund Burke

I can't speak for anyone but myself. But somethings, are just worth it.

Yes we are a varied bunch. I know some would jump to help. I know others that wouldn't because they won't allow the repercussions to affect them, their livelihoods, nor thier ability to provide for thier loved ones.

 

[Byron Quick]

I'd be the last to advocate to someone not to get involved in the protection of an innocent. Even at the risk of having to use lethal force. I've done so in the past and wouldn't hesitate to do so in the future.

But I did so knowing the laws in my state relating to the use of lethal force. And knowing that politically ambitious DA's in this state stay just as far away from actions that could be construed as prosecuting someone who legally defended themselves or others as humanly possible. With the possible exception of the city of Atlanta, that ain't gonna happen in Georgia.

The message is not don't help because of this or that. The message is to know what you're doing right down the line. From handling your weapon to knowing the law. And having watched the actions of local prosecutors to get a feel for how they apply the state law.

In the past thirty years, I know of exactly one incident where what I consider to be a self-defense shooting was prosecuted. But an assessment of my town could have told my friend that he would likely be prosecuted. He wasn't from around here nor was his family. Strike one. The deceased was a bad apple but he was a local boy. Strike two. And he was the black sheep of a fairly prominent local family. Strike three. The deceased was not armed. I knew both of them and have always considered it to be a justifiable homicide. I testified as a character witness at my friend's trial. Charged with premeditated murder, he was acquitted. The DA would probably have obtained a conviction if he had gone for voluntary manslaughter.

I've often wondered what was going on there. That DA was not headstrong or stupid by any means. I think the family was pulling political strings to get my friend prosecuted to begin with.

This is also the only case I've seen in this area where a wrongful death lawsuit was brought. And won. My friend was in his early twentles, had no assets, declared bankruptcy, and never paid a dime of the judgement.

 

[Cosmoline]

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
-Edmund Burke

It sounds good, but in real world disputes it's very hard to tell who the "good" and "evil" sides are. Usually neither side is entirely in the right. Even a situation where you see a man hit a woman, which Hollywood would have us believe is always a clear cut case of sadism. That woman may have been beating him far more brutally with her words than he did with his fists. And she would likely be the first to attack *YOU* if you took him out. Life is complicated, so proceed with great caution.