Different water jug test of SST, Ballistic Tip, and TTSX

[md7]

Perhaps someone here can answer this… I’ve heard that Barnes Vor Tx TTSX (factory loaded) in 130 and 150 gr 308 require 1800 and 2000 fps for expansion, respectively.

Can anyone here verify or offer corrective info?

 

[wombat13]

Perhaps someone here can answer this… I’ve heard that Barnes Vor Tx TTSX (factory loaded) in 130 and 150 gr 308 require 1800 and 2000 fps for expansion, respectively.

Can anyone here verify or offer corrective info?

All I can offer is what I've read and my opinion. I would not count on good expansion from TTSX below 2000 fps. In fact, I would prefer 2200 fps or greater. In the links that I posted, the experiments indicate that the key factor is actually energy, which is certainly related to velocity, but not the same. He found that heavier TTSX expanded at lower velocity because they had more energy. However, the key variable is which cartridge did Barnes have in mind when they developed the bullet. He was testing .277 bullets. The lighter weight bullets are geared toward the lower velocities of 6.8mm SPC while the heavier bullets are designed for the higher velocity of the .270 win.

In his testing, the 85 gr TSX, 95 gr TTSX and 110 gr TSX all expanded quite well at 1300 ft-lbs of energy at impact. The 130 grain (clearly intended for the faster 270 win) needed nearly 2000 ft-lbs to achieve full expansion.

My guess is the 150 gr .30 cal TTSX is designed with the expectation that it will be used in .30-06 and even .300WM and will require significant energy to expand. That's the bullet I'm shooting in my .300WM. The 130 is probably a better bet for the lower velocities of the .308 win. Heck, I'd try the 130 gr in my .300WM.

Edited to add: Looking at the Barnes factory ammo I see that the 150 gr bullet is offered in .300WM and .300WSM, so the bullet is designed to work at much higher velocities than the .308 win produces. The 130 gr is not offered in the magnums, so it is intended for .308 win.

 

[md7]

All I can offer is what I've read and my opinion. I would not count on good expansion from TTSX below 2000 fps. In fact, I would prefer 2200 fps or greater. In the links that I posted, the experiments indicate that the key factor is actually energy, which is certainly related to velocity, but not the same. He found that heavier TTSX expanded at lower velocity because they had more energy. However, the key variable is which cartridge did Barnes have in mind when they developed the bullet. He was testing .277 bullets. The lighter weight bullets are geared toward the lower velocities of 6.8mm SPC while the heavier bullets are designed for the higher velocity of the .270 win.

In his testing, the 85 gr TSX, 95 gr TTSX and 110 gr TSX all expanded quite well at 1300 ft-lbs of energy at impact. The 130 grain (clearly intended for the faster 270 win) needed nearly 2000 ft-lbs to achieve full expansion.

My guess is the 150 gr .30 cal TTSX is designed with the expectation that it will be used in .30-06 and even .300WM and will require significant energy to expand. That's the bullet I'm shooting in my .300WM. The 130 is probably a better bet for the lower velocities of the .308 win. Heck, I'd try the 130 gr in my .300WM.

Edited to add: Looking at the Barnes factory ammo I see that the 150 gr bullet is offered in .300WM and .300WSM, so the bullet is designed to work at much higher velocities than the .308 win produces. The 130 gr is not offered in the magnums, so it is intended for .308 win.

Your input is appreciated! Thanks for drafting that well put reply

 

[wombat13]

Your input is appreciated! Thanks for drafting that well put reply

Sure thing. I'm happy to try to help. It is too bad that Barnes doesn't offer more information. Their old load data included symbols indicating the uses for each bullet. The symbols were antelope, deer, elk, and target (at least in the calibers I look at). The .308 win load data is that style. Load data that has been updated more recently (for example, .300WM which is listed as NEW on the website), doesn't include this information. The other thing they dropped is the indicator for the most accurate powder. The old style .308 win load data indicates that TAC was the most accurate powder with the 130 gr bullets and Varget was the most accurate powder with the 150 gr bullets. The newer style load data omits that. Why give us less info?

I'm sure Barnes did significant testing during bullet design. They must have a velocity range for expansion (min velocity for a certain level of expansion and a max velocity beyond which petals start to break off). Why not give that info to handloaders?

 

[md7]

Sure thing. I'm happy to try to help. It is too bad that Barnes doesn't offer more information. Their old load data included symbols indicating the uses for each bullet. The symbols were antelope, deer, elk, and target (at least in the calibers I look at). The .308 win load data is that style. Load data that has been updated more recently (for example, .300WM which is listed as NEW on the website), doesn't include this information. The other thing they dropped is the indicator for the most accurate powder. The old style .308 win load data indicates that TAC was the most accurate powder with the 130 gr bullets and Varget was the most accurate powder with the 150 gr bullets. The newer style load data omits that. Why give us less info?

I'm sure Barnes did significant testing during bullet design. They must have a velocity range for expansion (min velocity for a certain level of expansion and a max velocity beyond which petals start to break off). Why not give that info to handloaders?

Yep, it would be good info to have. I may shoot an email to them to see what the velocity ranges are. Curious minds want to know lol!

 

[wombat13]

Yep, it would be good info to have. I may shoot an email to them to see what the velocity ranges are. Curious minds want to know lol!

Please let me know what they say. I really think that the 130 gr is your best bet unless you are going for elk. Not only is the 150 loaded for the .30 cal magnums, it is recommended for elk (in the old load data that shows that info). That means it is going to be designed to penetrate more than you need or want for deer. Also, I know from personal experience, the 100 gr TTSX in .25-06 is fantastic for deer and that has a sectional density of .216 and typical max MV of 3300 fps. The 130 gr in .308 win has a SD of 0.196 and typical max MV of 3200 fps. Those match pretty well. Member JimKirk has had great results with the .243 win 80 gr TTSX with SD 0.194 at about 3400 fps.

 

[md7]

Please let me know what they say. I really think that the 130 gr is your best bet unless you are going for elk. Not only is the 150 loaded for the .30 cal magnums, it is recommended for elk (in the old load data that shows that info). That means it is going to be designed to penetrate more than you need or want for deer. Also, I know from personal experience, the 100 gr TTSX in .25-06 is fantastic for deer and that has a sectional density of .216 and typical max MV of 3300 fps. The 130 gr in .308 win has a SD of 0.196 and typical max MV of 3200 fps. Those match pretty well. Member JimKirk has had great results with the .243 win 80 gr TTSX with SD 0.194 at about 3400 fps.

I agree. I’ve got an 18” barrel 308 (awaiting suppressor), and without chrono data I’m estimating around 2970 to 3000 fps at the Muzzle.

Assuming 2000 fps minimum threshold for expansion the bullet should be ideal for whitetail at the ranges I’m shooting (300 yard max) and possibly to 400 but that’s academic only. No opportunity for shots beyond 300 anyway

Hey…. What’s your opinion on a heavy for caliber ELD X in 178 gr? They say that bullet is not reliant on velocity for expansion to the extent mono’s are

 

[wombat13]

I agree. I’ve got an 18” barrel 308 (awaiting suppressor), and without chrono data I’m estimating around 2970 to 3000 fps at the Muzzle.

Assuming 2000 fps minimum threshold for expansion the bullet should be ideal for whitetail at the ranges I’m shooting (300 yard max) and possibly to 400 but that’s academic only. No opportunity for shots beyond 300 anyway

Hey…. What’s your opinion on a heavy for caliber ELD X in 178 gr? They say that bullet is not reliant on velocity for expansion to the extent mono’s are

I haven't used the ELD-X, but I would expect that it will expand at lower velocities than the copper bullets. This is particularly true at longer ranges. The copper bullets need to be driven fast to expand and they have relatively low BCs so they lose velocity fast, so they probably aren't the best bullet at longer ranges.

I just bought some ELD-Xs for my .280ai for working up a load for beyond 400 yards. The .280ai and the 120 and 140 TTSXs should be great for anything inside of 400.

Others here are using the ELD-X. Do a search or post a new thread. I'd be very interested to learn more about them.

 

[md7]

Please let me know what they say. I really think that the 130 gr is your best bet unless you are going for elk. Not only is the 150 loaded for the .30 cal magnums, it is recommended for elk (in the old load data that shows that info). That means it is going to be designed to penetrate more than you need or want for deer. Also, I know from personal experience, the 100 gr TTSX in .25-06 is fantastic for deer and that has a sectional density of .216 and typical max MV of 3300 fps. The 130 gr in .308 win has a SD of 0.196 and typical max MV of 3200 fps. Those match pretty well. Member JimKirk has had great results with the .243 win 80 gr TTSX with SD 0.194 at about 3400 fps.

You asked if I’d share what Barnes said. Here’s the info.

Spoke with a very nice, and seemingly knowledgeable Barnes tech guy on the phone. A+ for their thoughtfulness and the time their people take with customers btw.

Speaking to their factory loaded 308 Vor Tx TTSX loads, velocity thresholds for expansion are as follows

130 gr Vor Tx TTSX 308 win 1800 fps for 1.75 X expansion and around 2000 fps for 2X expansion

150 gr Vor Tx TTSX 308 Win 1500 fps for 1.75 X expansion and around 1800 fps for 2 X expansion

168 gr Vor Tx TTSX 308 Win are the same for the 150 gr listed above

This is per the rep unless I transcribed incorrectly or misunderstood. I don’t think I wrote incorrectly or misunderstood though

 

[wombat13]

You asked if I’d share what Barnes said. Here’s the info.

Spoke with a very nice, and seemingly knowledgeable Barnes tech guy on the phone. A+ for their thoughtfulness and the time their people take with customers btw.

Speaking to their factory loaded 308 Vor Tx TTSX loads, velocity thresholds for expansion are as follows

130 gr Vor Tx TTSX 308 win 1800 fps for 1.75 X expansion and around 2000 fps for 2X expansion

150 gr Vor Tx TTSX 308 Win 1500 fps for 1.75 X expansion and around 1800 fps for 2 X expansion

168 gr Vor Tx TTSX 308 Win are the same for the 150 gr listed above

This is per the rep unless I transcribed incorrectly or misunderstood. I don’t think I wrote incorrectly or misunderstood though

Interesting. That translates to between 1100 ft-lbs for 2x expansion for each of those. 1155 ft-lbs (2000 fps, 130 gr) for the 130gr, 1079 ft-lbs for the 150gr, and 1209 for the 168gr.

I calculated the energy because the guy that did all the bullet testing found a correlation between expansion and energy, not velocity.

 

[wombat13]

The fellow who did the testing of 6.8mm TTSX and other bullets (goes by SlimJim on Huntingnet and Xman on 68forums; I posted links to his testing) created this chart of the bullets he tested:



There are a lot of bullets here but if you take a time find the TTSX lines you will see that at 1,100 ft-lbs they were getting about 1.75x expansion (about 0.485 on this chart). They didn't hit 2x expansion (0.554) until after 1,300 ft-lbs.

With the .308 bullets you will need the following velocities to get 1,300 ft-lbs: 130gr - 2,200 fps; 150 gr - 2,000 fps; 168 gr - 1,900 fps.

This is much more in-line with the "conventional wisdom" that you want 2,000 fps or more when shooting Barnes bullets.

 

[JimKirk]

We(Cousin & I his gun) have loaded the Barnes 110 grain TTSX in the 300 WSM ...at 3800 fps (chrono)they will kill whitetail like lightning... probably not a long range load ... but <300 yards deadly ...

Cousin's wife shot a big body 8 point at 190 yards ...DRT ...

Now if I could get some 110 grain TTSX for the 270 WSM ..data has it at 3600 fps ..

 

[Wolfshead]

I’m in the beginning stages of developing a load for my .308 Win and I’m using the Barnes ttsx 130 grain bullets and Varget.
My ranges are out to 300 yds. Very few instances where I can/would shoot beyond that.
I’m not very good reading these charts (it may not even say) so I must ask, what is the velocity of the 130 grain ttsx at 300 yards?
Would that be within the 2200 fps range? From one of the pictures there looks to be good expansion at the 300 yd mark.
A max load of Varget has a listed muzzle velocity of 3164 fps and the min is 2896 fps. I’m expecting my load to be closer to max and probably around 2900 fps.
This is a hunting load for Whitetail.
Thanks in advance.

 

[wombat13]

I’m in the beginning stages of developing a load for my .308 Win and I’m using the Barnes ttsx 130 grain bullets and Varget.
My ranges are out to 300 yds. Very few instances where I can/would shoot beyond that.
I’m not very good reading these charts (it may not even say) so I must ask, what is the velocity of the 130 grain ttsx at 300 yards?
Would that be within the 2200 fps range? From one of the pictures there looks to be good expansion at the 300 yd mark.
A max load of Varget has a listed muzzle velocity of 3164 fps and the min is 2896 fps. I’m expecting my load to be closer to max and probably around 2900 fps.
This is a hunting load for Whitetail.
Thanks in advance.

You can put the data into Hornady.com’s ballistic calculator. The 130 TTSX has BC of 0.350. If your MV is 2,900 fps, you should be at 2,154 fps and 1,340 ft-lbs at 300 yards. With a 3,100 fps MV, you would be at 2,148 fps and 1,332 ft-lbs at 375 yards.

So if you really are hunting with max range of 300, any MV at 2,900 fps or more and you’ll be golden.

Here’s the link to the Hornady calculator: https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/ballistic-calculators/#!/standard

The BCs for the TTSX bullets are not great when compared with Accubond, sst, ELD-X, etc., so their best use is inside of 400 anyway. You should look at the LRX if you want a copper bullet for ranges beyond 300-400 yards.

 

[JimKirk]

With the correct powder( there are several) that would bump a 130 grain TTSX on up towards 3100 fps in the .308 Win 22" barrel...these would be full loads ...but figuring 3100 fps ... your 2000 fps threshold would be out to 420 yards ....that would be a Point Blank Range of 295 yards +/-3".

Myself based on my experience ...I say 2200 fps is the minimum for petal expansion ...I know there are special TTSX designed for lower expansion velocity... I am pretty sure the 130 grain TTSX is not one those special class... and yeah Barnes claims different figures but only says "expand or expansion" ....not what rate of expansion ...

 

[wombat13]

With the correct powder( there are several) that would bump a 130 grain TTSX on up towards 3100 fps in the .308 Win 22" barrel...these would be full loads ...but figuring 3100 fps ... your 2000 fps threshold would be out to 420 yards ....that would be a Point Blank Range of 295 yards +/-3".

Myself based on my experience ...I say 2200 fps is the minimum for petal expansion ...I know there are special TTSX designed for lower expansion velocity... I am pretty sure the 130 grain TTSX is not one those special class... and yeah Barnes claims different figures but only says "expand or expansion" ....not what rate of expansion ...

Listen to JimKirk! He’s been working with TTSX in several chambering and knows what he’s talking about.

I’d say work on a load that is accurate and has greater than 2,900 fps MV. You’ll be fine out to 300 yards. Once you know your MV, you can estimate how far beyond 300 yards you’re likely to get adequate expansion by using the Hornady ballistic calculator.

 

[horsey300]

https://www.nosler.com/products/bullets/product-line/expansion-tipr.html
I know this is nosler and not barnes, but the construction is similar enough to a ttsx to bring up, I've hunted with the ttsx and agree with previous statements on speed requirements, I've also spoken to barnes about thresholds and feel that using their numbers needs a heavy bone to be reliable (hit a shoulder at their quoted bottom end) 2200 has long been my minimum happy and 2000 my minimum tolerance. @JimKirk and @wombat13 have provided very useful data here that mirrors what I've witnessed myself.

 

[.22-10ga]

What's the barrel length on the .300 wsm your cousin and his wife use to slay deer with the Barnes 110 ttsx at 3800fps?

 

[JimKirk]

What's the barrel length on the .300 wsm your cousin and his wife use to slay deer with the Barnes 110 ttsx at 3800fps?

Pretty sure it was a 24" barrel ... I didn't write down that day ... I can measure it if needed ..

 

[.22-10ga]

Pretty sure it was a 24" barrel ... I didn't write down that day ... I can measure it if needed ..

If you ever get the chance to measure the barrel length, please do. I love hearing about real world velocities (as opposed to reloading manuals and factory data), and I'm unfamiliar with the .300 wsm using that bullet.

I'm currently loading that exact bullet (110 ttsx) for my .300 savage and .30-06, both with 24 inch barrels.