Double barrel or Pump

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I curious about this. We are talking home defense right? Has there ever been a documented case where an HD situation turned into a war zone? From everything I've read or seen on TV once shots are fired people run. There have been cases where a home owner shot at a suspect who returned fire on his way out the door, but has there ever been a scene where a suspect took cover, reload and attached in a 2x2 cover formation?

I could be wrong but I'd suspect that once shots are fired, even just 2, people split quick. For police work, or military applications I would not select a double, but for HD I'd have no problem with a double.

Actually, I'd like a handgun near by as back up, but a double a good choice for me.
 
My research mirrors your thoughts, Lovesbeer.

Unless the attack is personal in some way - like gang retribution - or the home has specific assets of great value that the attackers are specifically targeting, once guns come out people begin to alter their behavior. Among other things, guns are behavior modification tools. And once gunfire begins people begin to significantly alter their behavior.

Two shots from a shotgun will significantly change the dynamics of the encounter. Even after the repeating shotgun had developed into a well-respected long gun and had long ago had all of its bugs worked out, the double barrel was still a well-regarded tool. For many years the New York City Police Detectives bought and issued the Stevens 311R, a 20 inch barrelled 12 gauge, to it's City Detectives for use in warrant service. The little research I've done on it showed they were still in use up into the 1980's.
 
Counting on them running sounds like a bad idea.

Have the firepower in case you need it.

If you go by statistics alone, you dont even need a gun. Stastically most people will never need one and get by fine their whole life.

If we arent preparing for the "unlikely" then what are we doing?

Pumps are cheaper, 99% reliable, and have more firepower.

IF ITS ALL YOU HAVE a double is probably ok. But I would not select it over a pump any day of the week.
 
dom1104 said:
IF ITS ALL YOU HAVE a double is probably ok. But I would not select it over a pump any day of the week.
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Maybe not for yourself, but you are who you are, and your needs might not be the same as someone else.

You might be willing to spend the time to learn a pump. Or maybe you haven't and it's little more than a talisman. I don't know.

But some folks are simply unwilling to commit the time and practice it takes to learn to work a pump shotgun. Pumps require more maintenance. Pumps require the user stay in practice with it to take advantage of the additional capacity. A pump in the hands of someone who cannot run it under stress is little more than clumbsy a single shot.


dom1104 said:
Pumps are cheaper, 99% reliable, and have more firepower.
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A good quality pump is not cheaper than the same quality double. Stoeger coach guns fall right about in line price wise with an 870 and a 500.

More capacity in the gun is not the end-all, be-all. There are a more factors to consider when chosing a shotgun appropriate to someone's lifestyle than ammunition capacity. Doubles have two rounds immediately on tap. Malfunctions are not always due to the gun. Ammo malfunctions, too. Even the best of ammunition has a predictible failure rate.
 
Two shots from a shotgun will significantly change the dynamics of the encounter.
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I disagree. One shot will significantly change the dynamics of the encounter.

The way some talk you'd think that their first move in a HD scenario would be to empty their 8 shot Mossberg 12 gauge all in one volley.

Also, I think a lot guys don't realize just how fast a double barrel or single shot shotgun can be reloaded. Three shells, stuck between the fingers of your left hand, can be loaded up in an awful hurry if need be.

My only shotgun right now is a pardner 12 with a cut down 18" barrel. Not only is it extremely fast handling, more so than the most "tactical" of Mossbergs and Remingtons, but it can be reloaded in just over one second. Put it this way, I don't spend my nights worrying that my shotgun is ineffective or insufficient. I sleep quite well actually.:)
 
Trying to say what will be enough is always folly.

You never know what you will face till it happens.

Me I prepare for the worst. (Shtf total financial collapse). Anything less is infinatly more likely but prepare for the worst and you will be ready for the rest.
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It don't get a little rough sleepin' on all them gold bars in your mattress? :D I don't figure I need a drum mag Saiga for bedroom defense. I live in a town of 10K. If I need more than the coach gun, I'll pick up my .357 magnum.

I don't own a gun specifically for home defense. I reckon I could get a short barrel for my Mossberg 500, but my Spartan 20 that I shoot doves with is pretty mean with 3 buck. If you live in a house without locks in Harlem, get yourself a Saiga. :D

Signed....

Elmer
 
It don't get a little rough sleepin' on all them gold bars in your mattress? I don't figure I need a drum mag Saiga for bedroom defense. I live in a town of 10K. If I need more than the coach gun, I'll pick up my .357 magnum.
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Sounds like you got me pegged right off the bat. :) I do have significant doubts as to the short term financial stability of this country. :)

Yes a single shot H&R would handle 99% of situations that the average american homeowner encounters. I can buy that. Its the OTHER 1% that I am looking to prepare for.

And yes, of course you need to learn to use your tools.

All I am saying is, we live in a country that has some states very close to being failed. I heard last week that Californias municipal bonds have the same credit rating as Kazahkistans.

Things could get very bad very fast when the welfare checks stop getting mailed.

Just one scenario that could happen VERY soon.

Last night I came home to my house, my wife went inside and said "There is someone in our house".

I had a gun on me and discovered the furnace repairman her grandmother let in had turned on our lights. :)

If it WAS a bad guy, was it going to be one person? 2? 3? 5? would I miss once? twice?

Last week a friend of mines brothers head was beat to a pulp by "multiple persons" invading his home.

For ME, I prefer the ability to deal with situations greater than "normal".

My last 3 870 wingmasters were around 150 - 200 bucks, and I consider them excellent guns.

There is a reason we carry j frames instead of derringers.

Firepower is a good thing. Frankly it would take a LOT of argueing to get me to change my mind on that.

If you are going to use a double for HD, like many have suggested have a backup sidearm at least.

I have hunted quite a bit with a double, know all the finger tricks. Do I trust MYSELF to do that sort of reloading under stress like I felt last night? No sir.

Also it is rather difficult to mount a flashlight to a double gun <unless you go with that stoeger abomination> while it is a very cheap proposition on a pump.

Not trying to start anything, really not trying to argue just trying to get my initial point across.
 
There is a reason we carry j frames instead of derringers.
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J frame? How's about a 13 round Kel Tec P11? Smaller than a J frame and nearly 3 times the firepower. Hey, there might be 6 assailants, right? :D

Yeah, you can get carried away with this stuff IMHO. 870s work. I just don't choose to shoot a special gun in the house, rather shoot one I hunt with that works. If I got an 18.5" barrel for my Mossberg, no doubt, I'd forget the put the plug back in for duck season and it'd cost me. :rolleyes: I got checked this year during teal season. I could buy another Mossberg. I mean, I could probably find one used cheap. After all, the controls are the same, but I just stick the little coach gun next to the bed and live happy.
 
I've used single and double break open guns for hunting for over 40 years and would feel perfectly confident firing and reloading one in any situation. I've never owned a pump and have only fired one a few times so I'd be a bit leery about using one in a stressful situation.

That's just me and my personal experience. Whatever a peson chooses you'd better shoot it lots and often until you're totally comfortable with using it before you trust your life to it. I really worry that there are folks who buy a gun for HD, put a dozen or so rounds through it, and then think they're safe from bad guys.

Practice and intimate familiarity are FAR more important than the weapon you choose.
 
Just a follow up. A member posted that he should "prepare for the worst".
How do you difine the "Worst". Is this a home invasion with 10 armed men each with special forces training? Is this 2 guys each with a shotgun kicking down your door at 4am? To say a double is not enough hardly answers the question. Do you need 2 AR's (incase the 1st malfunctions) with 30, 20 round mags?

I'm guessing a short double with extra rounds handy will satify all your needs unless you are attached by a team with a personal vendetta who spent time preparring for an attach. I'd feel more comfortable with a hand gun as back up and that's easy to do.

Again I'm talking about Home Defense and not a civil war, police action, SHTF callapse of the country.
 
A double has a place in my home, it stays loaded with a pair of 00 in her pipes. She's short, easy to get down my hall quick like if need be. Points very natural and patterns very tight with both barrels (though the right one has a bit more spread) Now saying all that, there is also a loaded 870, but the Baikal is whats beside the bed.
 
Is this a home invasion with 10 armed men each with special forces training? Is this 2 guys each with a shotgun kicking down your door at 4am? To say a double is not enough hardly answers the question. Do you need 2 AR's (incase the 1st malfunctions) with 30, 20 round mags?
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I don't know about you but those odds are losing to me. There’s a time to fight and a time to flee and going up against even two men and you having a pump would seem very risky.
 
"Run what you brung." I would make a sxs work if that's all I had. However, a pump seems advantageous. Also, I think some people here are just "sticking up for the little guy" and don't honestly think a sxs shotgun is better than a pump for home defense. By the way, I haven't seen any police officers or military personnel running sxs shotguns, but that observation could be due to my limited experience.
 
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Lovesbeer99 said:
I curious about this. We are talking home defense right? Has there ever been a documented case where an HD situation turned into a war zone?
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There's a recent 2009 case involving a couple who got overtaken military style:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/07/10/Florida.couple.killed/

But I'm sure somebody here can nitpick a detail why that case doesn't count for your question.

=====

Anyway, I'm sure there are plenty of people on this site with lots of valuables in there homes. So, we might as well discuss this topic as if a robber is relatively sophisticated and has a strong motivation to intrude a home.
 
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If you feel the need to emulate police and .mil in your home defense preps, I hope you have body armour, night vision, and claymores ready to go at a moments notice. Don't worry, you can always duct tape the extra trauma plates on just in case the Spetnaz invading your home start with suppressive fire from a heavy machine gun. :rolleyes:

I wouldn't say a SxS is necessarily better. I would say it's not necessarily worse though. All action types have pros and cons, although "But that's not what the real operators use!!!" is not a legitimate part of the equation imho.
 
Six said:
How many shots did the Billings fire?
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I was just answering the question. I didn't realize shots had to be fired on both sides in order for a situation to resemble a war zone.

Balog said:
If you feel the need to emulate police and .mil in your home defense preps, I hope you have body armour, night vision, and claymores ready to go at a moments notice.
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My point is that if someone wants to argue that a SxS is more effective, then that's weird to me because I have not seen cops or soldiers issued SxS shotguns instead of pumps. In other words, I have never seen a photo of a cop or a soldier in my entire life using a SxS shotgun as their issued weapon. That's just an observation based on my limited experience. If a SxS is more effective, then one would think I would have seen at least one photo of a cop or soldier with a SxS as an issued weapon instead of a pump.
 
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I don't know about you but those odds are losing to me. There’s a time to fight and a time to flee and going up against even two men and you having a pump would seem very risky.
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If you are at home then where are you going to flee too? If someone or a few people broke into my house then I think I least owe it to my family to try and fight them off any way I can. I don't have experience w/ an SXS but I think a pump is well suited for the task for reasons already mentioned, plus a good sidearm, XD-.45 in my case.
 
I dunno. I've seen LOTS of cops and deputys with sxs shotguns on duty. Of course it was the Earp's and Doc Holiday...

We're spending alot of time on a silly premise that wasn't a real question to begin with.

Al
 
Funny, I bet you wouldn't call the premise silly if you could post some photos of cops and soldiers using SxS shotguns.

Anyway, please explain how that's silly. If a SxS is honestly, actually, literally more effective than a pump, then why aren't more (or any) professionals using them on their jobs?

I've never been accused of being a silly person, but I will admit that I do have limited experience. If I sound like just a newbie talking, then it should be easy to articulate the reasons why.
 
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i dunno. I've seen lots of cops and deputys with sxs shotguns on duty. Of course it was the earp's and doc holiday...

We're spending alot of time on a silly premise that wasn't a real question to begin with.

Al
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exactly

/thread
 
Dee said:
If you are at home then where are you going to flee too? If someone or a few people broke into my house then I think I least owe it to my family to try and fight them off any way I can. I don't have experience w/ an SXS but I think a pump is well suited for the task for reasons already mentioned, plus a good sidearm, XD-.45 in my case.
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No you owe it to your family to have a plan first, and that should be safety for them first and foremost.

Do you think that can reasonably be achieved with bullets flying through your house?

You only have 1 door and no windows?
 
Isn't the best kind of shotgun the one you have? Your favorite, reliable friend? It matters not if it loads from the breech, or from beneath. Isn't that rule 1 of shotgunning? To have a shotgun? Kinda puts the issue to rest, eh?
 
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