Draw times - whoa!

[Anmut]

Went again today with my carry revolver, a little j-frame snubbie. Draw times were the same, which is good, between the semi-auto and the revolver. Still about 3 seconds from underneath the coat... but practice couldn't get anymore fun!

 

[RBid]

Or people that default to the oft-cited: "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" mantra. No, it's not. I can show you the slowest, smoothest draw ever....and it'll never be considered fast.

Or the "Economy of motion = fast." No, it's not.

To be fast, you must move fast, smoothly and efficiently.

David,

I understand why you posted what you did, but you're railing against phrases that aren't wrong, they are simply misused. "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast" is really about not pushing physical speed to the point of breakdown. It isn't about actually going slow. It's about going as fast as you can, while still moving smoothly, and not hanging up or fumbling. Economy of motion has a similar goal-- limiting the work to what must be done, and cutting out the rest. The truth of these can be seen when Rob Leatham and his slow feet finish a course of fire with times that blow away most shooters, or when someone sees Frank Proctor pulling .21 target transition splits.

The truth is, our bodies have a raw speed cap, and soft caps on how fast we can move without losing control. When you operate at those speeds, the only way to get faster is to refine movement.

OP,

One thing I strongly recommend to speed up the draw is to break the movement down, and to put a lot of effort into the first parts of the movement. One of the things I like to do is to set my timer to random delay, with a 1 second par. When the buzzer goes, I sweep my cover garment, and transition into a high, strong grip. This particular drill stops with the strong hand locked into the grip, with the pistol still in the holster. I start with 1 second because that's a par I can easily and smoothly hit. As I go through reps, I reduce the par. A good starting point is to work on getting 5 consecutive clean sweep --> grip reps, then reduce the par by .1. Eventually, you'll reduce the par to a point where you can no longer cleanly perform the action, and you'll know what it feels like to operate at the speed at which you can move without breaking down.

It barely takes any time to work through that drill. Once you're done, move on to dry press out --> first shot. Same thing. Random delay, and a par that leaves a slight cushion. 5 clean reps = reduce par. Concentrate on executing the movement perfectly, so that the drill ends with your front sight on the target, and your hands in a good grip on the pistol.

At this point, you'll have been working for less than 5 minutes. Move on to dry draw --> shoot on a small target. Again... par with a slight cushion, clean reps reduce the par.

In about 5-10 minute sessions, twice a week or so, you'll quickly cut down your draw time.

 

[Comrade Mike]

Slow is fast, fast is smooth.

When ever I compete at action shoots I'm usually going in knowing I'm going to get beat by guys who game the entire shoot, so when the beeper goes off I always start off with a good solid text book draw and slowly speed it up as the stages progress. I'll also work on it at home with a beeper but it doesn't record my time. I do it more for repetitions than time, dry firing my draw if you will. Granted it's not clocked but it's still practice.

 

[PBR Streetgang]

Accuracy and being able to hit you target constantly and quickly is the beginning. After that the draw comes into play. It must be smooth and deliberate. It's like taking martial arts , you practice it correctly in slow motion and then build up the speed. After enough continual practice, it becomes second nature and you don't have to think about what you're doing, you just do it. If you're willing to dedicate the time and effort and aren't all thumbs it will come in time. I tthink martial arts says if you do something repeatedly 5000 to 7000 times you will begin to master it.........BEGIN being the pivotal word there. Practice, practice,practice.......if you don't , the only person you cheat is YOU!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Or people that default to the oft-cited: "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" mantra. No, it's not. I can show you the slowest, smoothest draw ever....and it'll never be considered fast.

I believe the adage is: "Fast is slow. Slow is smooth; smooth is quick".

It was either John Boyd (the OODA Loop guy) or Chet Richards (Boyd acolyte) who provided a great description of the difference between "fast" and "quick". I'm not smart enough to even try to paraphrase it. One of these days I'm gonna finally find it again so I can refer others to it.

 

[peacemaker45]

Accuracy and being able to hit you target constantly and quickly is the beginning. After that the draw comes into play. It must be smooth and deliberate. It's like taking martial arts , you practice it correctly in slow motion and then build up the speed. After enough continual practice, it becomes second nature and you don't have to think about what you're doing, you just do it. If you're willing to dedicate the time and effort and aren't all thumbs it will come in time. I tthink martial arts says if you do something repeatedly 5000 to 7000 times you will begin to master it.........BEGIN being the pivotal word there. Practice, practice,practice.......if you don't , the only person you cheat is YOU!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, you build a sound technique in slow motion before you add speed. Doing it slow lets you focus on doing it correctly and consistently. Also, working on parts of a technique, that is, getting the grip, then the hands meeting, then the presentation, then the trigger press, before combining everything into a whole is sound practice.

What you're trying to do is commit a complex series of actions to subconscious control. This is often called muscle memory.

I generally look for about a thousand reps of a new technique, before I start to add the timer. You've got to learn to walk before running. Going straight to speed leads to making mistakes, and practicing making mistakes over and over just makes them permanent.

 

[conw]

you're railing against phrases that aren't wrong, they are simply misused. "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast" is really about not pushing physical speed to the point of breakdown. It isn't about actually going slow. It's about going as fast as you can, while still moving smoothly, and not hanging up or fumbling

While this is something important to keep in mind I really like this one from Todd Louis Green:

Sometimes the fastest way to get fast is to go faster!​

This isn't some kind of empty slogan. He's got some really great drills (www.pistol-training.com) for actually pushing speed.

For a very simple example, you can gradually increase the number of shots you are trying to achieve in a given par time on a certain size target (let's say 8" at 3-5 yards for a beginner). First you would start with 2 shots from low ready, par 2. Do, say, 5 strings of that. Then go to 3 shots from low ready, par 2. 5 strings of that... keep increasing the number of shots. Can you get 5? 10?

At some point, let's say it's 6 shots in 2 seconds from low ready, you will begin to miss. That's okay! Now you know you can accurately put 5 shots in 2 seconds from low ready onto an 8" target at 3-5 yds. You can go to other "speed building" drills and come back to it later, OR you could try reducing the size of the target to 6" or 5" and making 5 shots in 2 seconds.

You WILL fumble sometimes, and you WILL eventually hit a wall past which you miss. But without hitting that wall you are not pushing speed to the max, and you won't necessarily get faster by trying to be "smoother" or more efficient with motion, just like David said.

 

[RBid]

Conw,

The type of drills you reference are exactly the same kind I referenced in the post from which your quote was taken. The concept is identical: increasing work per increment of time in order to determine and work through limitations.

As I said in that post, (when it's do or die time) the goal is to move as fast as you can, without breakdown. Once you are moving as fast as you are physically able to without fumbling, cutting out wasted motion and improving reaction time are the only ways to get 'faster'.

Also, yes. Todd is a great resource. I'm familiar with him.

 

[Ankeny]

My coat is a Carhart, zipped up, heavy duty WI weather coat, lifting it is the best I can do...

Man can i ever relate to that. When I left my house yesterday it was -17 degrees. I was carring a Commander sized pistol OWB at 4:00 under a Carhartt coat that extends to mid-thigh. I was also wearing heavy gloves. Even with a small revolver in a front poket, removing the gloves, etc. would still result in a very slow draw. If nothing else, having such slow access to the gun should illustrate the importance of getting off the X, situational awareness, avoidance, etc.

There is some good advice in this thread. Just remember the importance of developing proper technique as you progress. The issue of time (speed) is an individual thing. Some folks will never bust a sub one second draw on the square range, but they can do it all day long with a mouse and a keyboard. Set realistic goals based on your performance. I too subscribe to the idea that you need to push yourself beyond your capabilities to discover your true limits. Of course the real goal is to develop a speedy, fumble free draw that can be done cold and on demand day in and day out under a variety of conditions.

I sure get tired of braggarts that "know" they are faster than a rattlesnake.....just don't expect them to prove it to a peon like you...

Isn't it amazing how Internet times are so much faster than real world time? Sometimes I think it's more a case of folks being delusional than simply boasting.

 

[Godsgunman]

I've never used a timer but practice similarly usually from 5-10yds drawing from concealment as quickly and controlled as possible. I am usually moving also, not standing stationary. As far as a target I use nothing bigger than a 8" target, sometimes its just a 20 oz filled with water. Aim small miss small. Being able to practice and hit a smaller target will greatly increase your hits on a full torso sized target. Also I believe making that first shot hit its target is more important than subsequent follow up shots. Not saying the followups aren't important, they are, but take another quarter second to make sure that first shot finds its mark. Once you get that first one hitting then you can work on more speed. Those are my thoughts at least, I am no pro though.

 

[Fred Fuller]

My coat is a Carhart, zipped up, heavy duty WI weather coat

Sounds like a good opportunity to have a hammerless/concealed hammer snubby in an otherwise empty strong side exterior coat pocket to me... there's a thread around here somewhere on that, or see

http://carteach0.blogspot.com/2009/02/shooting-pocket-pistols-from-pocket.html

 

[RBid]

I have the Surefire shot timer app on my iphone, works great. I have even dialed up the sensitivity to max and used it for dryfire draw practice.

This is the same timer I use. It has been an amazing tool. Before I picked up electronic hearing protection, I ran Polk Audio ear buds under muff style hearing pro so I could use the timer app at the range. With a little creativity, you can increase square range productivity quite a bit.

 

[David E]

If phrases like "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" are misused.....then that makes them wrong!

I agree that, when properly used and applied, they have their place, that's not a place you want your skill level to stay.

We've all seen the herky-jerky guy who thinks he's going fast, (and to the untrained eye, looks like he's going fast), but the excess motion, etc, makes for a slow draw. HE would benefit by going slower and smoother. But if you're already smooth and efficient, going at slow to medium speed all the time does not translate into speed.

I believe I coined my phrase "To BE fast, you must GO fast!" before Todd coined his, but they mean the same thing.

In my Speed Skills class, I have to debunk the common belief that all you need to do to be fast is either be smooth or be efficient. Maybe even be both. But that leaves out the key ingredient: accelerated movement. Without which the three legged stool of Speed will not stand.

You can be smooth, you can be efficient, you can be smooth AND efficient. But you must add speed to be fast.

"To BE fast, you must GO fast...smoothly and efficiently."

David E

 

[ilbob]

I have to slow myself down because otherwise the speed of my draw creates so much heat from the holster rubbing against the gun that I occasionally drop the gun as it is too hot to hold.

 

[David E]

Sounds like you need a better holster!

 

[Potatohead]

You know, the golf swing is one of those "slow is fast" type deals. The faster and herkier you go, the worse you hit the ball, if you even hit it. You golfers out there know what I mean.









that's all i got

 

[David E]

You really don't ever want to go "herkier" even if you're going faster.

Quickness is a three-legged stool consisting of:

1) Smoothness

2) Efficiency

3) Speed

Of these three, speed is the most misunderstood.

If you can only perform two, then do the first two. But understand you're leaving out a major factor of what constitutes quickness.

 

[PBR Streetgang]

The accuracy of your fire has to be consistent and second nature before you work on your speed. trying to learn both at the same time is like pissing in the wind. Your stance, sight picture and trigger squeeze need to be perfected.Then practicing strings of fire,where you can consistently rapid fire and hit your target without losing your sight picture .

Another thing is having the proper,quality holster as in fit to your hand gun,..... rake ,angle height and location on your body. What works for someone else might not be your answer.Find what works for you and stick to it.....one other thing ,find a holster that you can reholster you handgun one handed............

One of the biggest things I see is guys do is buy a holster and put it on a belt that is only intended to hold your pants up,nothing ,more nothing less. If you are serious you need to spent the money and buy a belt that is made to bear the weight of a holstered firearm constantly AND stays in place when you draw said firearm. I see guys trying to draw only to be pulling up their belt ,pants and holstered gun half way up their side before the handgun even thinks of coming out of the holster......

Lastly on the problem of heavy clothes, you need to be cognizant of your surroundings and if something doesn't look right take a step back and think about it. Sometimes the speed of your brain processing your surroundings is faster than any draw. As a young cop,I used to have a pair of gloves that the forefinger had a slit in them so you could poke out your finger to get a good feel of your trigger,along with that a S&W hammerless bodyguard revolver in my outer uniform coat pocket. If I felt something something wasn't right I could wander up with my hand in my pocket and if things went to crap,,,,,hopefully the only thing worst for wear on me would have been a .38 sized hole exiting my coat pocket and some burning smell of that wool coat......

stand ready, stay safe...............

 

[Ankeny]

trying to learn both at the same time is like pissing in the wind.

I used to feel the same. I now feel with proper coaching and a quality training program, a person can work on several elements at the same time.

 

[ATLDave]

You know, the golf swing is one of those "slow is fast" type deals. The faster and herkier you go, the worse you hit the ball, if you even hit it. You golfers out there know what I mean.

You beat me to it. There are so many parallels between shooting and golf, it's just unbelievable.

And, just like with golf, the advice is geared towards the subjective feeling of slowness. If you actually swing slowly, the ball won't go anywhere. But if you swing fluidly, letting the various pieces of the swing operate in their correct order - BAM!

Same thing with the draw. You want all the parts to happen in the correct order, and in the correct way. Within those constraints, you want everything to happen as fast as possible. But, for many, purely thinking "go as fast as you can" leads to problems. OTOH, spending time practicing "go as fast as you can" and then trying to slow down a bit can produce an improvement in speed!

One other thing. Here's a good video by a guy with tremendous draw speed - he's working with a second shooter on improving that shooter's draw speed. Lots of interesting concepts. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMSlCyc-SQQ

 

[David E]

And this is why serious students of pistolcraft need a shot timer. It's not subjective at all, it's an accurate readout of how fast you did something.

At one match, there was a "Draw and shoot two rounds" stage. It was to give everyone (without a shot timer) an idea how fast they could draw and fire two rds on a 3 yard IPSC target. Unlike many who were using race rigs, I wore my IDPA legal Sooper Hooper. At the beep, I moved pretty fast and had a pretty good split time. (Time between shots). Both hit the A zone. I knew it was under a second, a barrier only broken one other time at that match, by a race rig-wearing Open shooter. My first shot was .56 with a .14 split for a total time of .70. In my head, it felt like it was in the .9's, so it shows that while it felt slower to me, the timer showed it was much faster than I thought.

The way to "create time" is to move fast. If there is a 50 yard shot that's being timed, 98% of shooters will draw the gun slowly because the shot will take a bit of time to take. The other 2% of shooters will draw just as fast as they would on a 7 yd target. This gives them more time to align the sights to make a good shot. The first group might be at full extension in two seconds and take another second before firing, for a 3 second time. The elite second group is at full extension in .8, maybe take the same full second to align the sights, but their time is 1.8. All the time saved was in the draw.

Wyatt Earp is credited with the gun fighting adage, "Take your time in a hurry." It still applies today. Don't go so fast you leave stuff out or do them wrong. At the same time, don't take so much time executing the most perfect draw ever that you never get your shot off.

.

 

[RBid]

David E,

Per your more recent posts, it appears that we are in complete agreement with regard to speed. Our difference seems to live in the way that we communicate the point.

These words:
"To BE fast, you must GO fast...smoothly and efficiently."

...are the most concise and clear way in which it has been explained in this thread.

My reason for countering your picking at the earlier referenced phrases is because doing so may cause confusion, as does the misuse of those phrases. I don't think people benefit from misunderstanding "slow is smooth, smooth is fast", but I also don't think they benefit from "go faster!". The most benefit is gained from circulating the correct information, which is moving as fast as possible without reaching the point of breakdown, and continually striving to increase the speed at which we can smoothly execute the movement.

 

[David E]

Agreed.

Like many here, we've had someone around hearing some folks talk about going fast then heard them smugly remark, "Yew boys kin go fast if'n yew want tew, but me, I'd rather hit!" As if he's the only one that understands how to shoot. Who naively equates speed with missing.

Or "Speed is fine, accuracy is final." Unless your accurate shot is fired too late to matter.

Speedy accuracy should be everyone's goal.

.

 

[Zoogster]

Holsters that are concealed and have retention suitable for someone that lives an active lifestyle are going to be much slower to draw from than some other options.

I think many of the faster holsters to deploy from are unsuitable for many things in life.
You have to find a balance between ability to deploy and ease of concealment, and ease of retention.

Some of the in waistband holsters with no retention are great for fast draws but I wouldn't trust them to retain a gun if I was running, or hiking, or wrestling around playing with a loved one, dog, etc
Maybe they are great for the guy that gets winded if they walk too fast to the bathroom, or only sits in an office chair all day then calmly walks to their car before going home, but for someone active or able to do fun spontaneous playful things you need more retention.
More retention while concealed often means you lose gunslinger speed.
There is hundreds of days you won't ever need a gun, days when you don't want to lose it and may not want reduce what you can do in life just so you are better able to make that quick shot when needed.
It all depends on your lifestyle. Maybe if you walk in to an apartment in a shady area and half to walk past the local thugs each time that great draw holster is better. Or you work at a cash register, or deliver pizzas.
You have to decide what you want to give up in life to gain an increase in draw speed you will hopefully not even need.

So you have to decide what tradeoffs you want. In a perfect stance at the range wearing a holster with a gun at exactly the angle you expect you will also always be faster than in many real situations.
Any covering garment is exactly where you expect or out of the way, the grip is right where you expect, and the pretend threat and target is in a known direction you are already lined up with and planning to draw on.
In real life you may reach down and find the gun canted or slightly out of position, or the attacker at your side or different angle than the one you are used to shooting from, or clothing stick or interfere. If it is a really easy to draw from holster you may have already lost the gun entirely in a struggle or when you were knocked down or fell and it came right out. While the one with better retention may still be with you but take an extra second to free which could be critical.

 

[Potatohead]

And, just like with golf, the advice is geared towards the subjective feeling of slowness. If you actually swing slowly, the ball won't go anywhere. But if you swing fluidly, letting the various pieces of the swing operate in their correct order - BAM!

Well said...you totally nailed it. You have to kind of wait for each little sector of the swing to fall into place.

On another note, I just started shooting this year as some of you may have seen (ive probably gotten 2000 rds in). I haven't even worked from the draw yet. When did you guys start mixing that in? I'm afraid to try to go fast with ANY movements, don't want to end up chucking my gun out towards the target accidentally or something like that. A bit paranoid at this stage.

Im still at the point where I'm telling myself "pull gun from holster. Hold it pointing at the ground. Take one step. Move left hand over slide while pointing at ground. NO DONT EVEN THINK OF PUTTING YOUR FINGER ON THE TRIGGER YET. Rack slide. Keep pointing gun at the ground!! Look downrange to see if it's clear. Find target. Look downrange to see if it's clear again. Move slightly forward, NO STAND STILL... DONT put finger on trigger yet!! Look downrange to see if it's clear. Re find target" and so on and so forth. In other words, Im covering like one slight movement every 45 seconds. I probably look like a robot out there. LOL

Of course Im exaggerating a bit but you get my drift.