Range Drills for multiple targets (with pics)

[Fred Fuller]

Someone once asked a Famous Name, "How long do I have to draw and shoot in an emergency?"

The answer was, "The rest of your life."

Do you still want this closed, David E? Seems to me it's still doing some good.

lpl

 

[David E]

In a properly set-up course, not everyone knows what the other is going to do. Usually the instructor tells one or two what he wants done and they run it. The 3 BG's may only know they are suppossed to do X and you only know you are going to do Y.

You partially make my point. First of all, they're taking a GUNFIGHTING course! They have airsoft guns in their belt or hand. They will presume the "victim" does, too, even if he does not. On the street, if they thought the victim had a gun, they'd deselect him for someone who's not carrying a gun.

Further, airsoft guns don't have any stopping power, much less KILLING POWER, so there's no real concern about losing one's life.

And, once again, you're confusing a shooting drill with "training."

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Obviously, you totally missed the point of the drill: to build target acquisition skills along with comparing the time it takes to get to the third target. Badguys DO have reaction times, usually, so seeing how long it takes to get to #3 is a valid pursuit.

I may have my wife/children with me, so I won't be wanting to move from them, or maybe I can't move, depending upon other conditions. I spoke to a guy that has a full-length leg brace yesterday, so he doesn't have the option to move.

I'm constantly amused by "armchair commandoes" that always assume that cover is always a mere step away and that there is always the option to move.

If you're going to stand there and draw against a bad guy that has a gun already in his hands pointed at you then you're going to lose. You MUST move to keep from being hit. You can prove it to yourself with a couple of inexpensive spring-action airsoft pistols. It's as simple as having your training partner (wife?) threaten you at gunpoint and see if you can stand there, draw and hit her before she shoots you. Then try it again, but take a single step to the left or right as you draw. Then again as you move with a purpose to the flank. Then reverse your roles. Find a second training partner (one of your kids?) and go up against two assailants. Add a third who charges at you with a "knife" while you're busy trying to shoot the others. The disadvantage of spring-action airsoft guns is they require you to rack the slide after each shot to shoot again. You can, however, use paint marking BBs.

If my family were near me I'd want to move away from them to keep bullets that were meant for me from hitting them. I anticipate the bad guys will focus their efforts in trying to stop me from shooting them than in maliciously trying to shoot my family.

This armchair commando owns four airsoft pistols for training. On one of them, a gas blowback KWA G19, I installed XS Sight Systems Big Dot sights so it accurately represents identical, but tritium sights, I have installed on my HD Glock 19.

If you can't move then you'd better expect to be shot if you attempt to draw under gunpoint. This mindest will, hopefully, enable you to drive-on and defeat the bad guy(s), who will be trying to stop you with as much determination as you are trying to stop them. And just as you must compel yourself to perform after being hit, so too will the bad guy. Being hit, even multiple times, doesn't mean you're out of the fight.

 

[David E]

Someone once asked a Famous Name, "How long do I have to draw and shoot in an emergency?"

The answer was, "The rest of your life."

This is key. Too often, someone sets up a drill that has no time frames whatsoever. Getting the first shot off in 3 seconds or longer is woefully slow.

The time parameters on the drill posted were to see how fast I could do it with single, double and triple taps and then compare them to time elapsed to Target #3. I was surprised how close my double tap times were to the single shot times. For that matter, how close the triple taps were, also.

The thing about a shooting drill is, once it's been defined, anyone can set it up and try their hand. They may discover new things, or confirm long held beliefs. Either way, they're ahead of where they were prior to shooting it.

Taking a TRAINING course is a good thing, but it's difficult to compare results or to set up something to replicate what happened in a TRAINING class.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

And, once again, you're confusing a shooting drill with "training."

What is a "drill"? It's training. It's training that's setting you up to fail.

 

[David E]

If you're going to stand there and draw against a bad guy that has a gun already in his hands pointed at you then you're going to lose. You MUST move to keep from being hit.

IF I can move, that's a great idea. But if I get my family behind me and then start to move, they may shoot where I WAS, hitting my wife/kids. I suppose I should move sooner, but what's happening to the family in the process? How far away should I let them get before the situation has totally unfolded? What are you supposed to do when you cannot move? (such as my friend with the full-length leg brace)

How do you practice shooting multiple targets? How do you practice your transitions? How do your single/double tap/triple tap times compare to each other?

What SHOOTING DRILLS do you suggest that address these issues?

 

[smince]

so there's no real concern about losing one's life.

Yeah, not nearly as life-threatening as shooting at cardboard

 

[David E]

What is a "drill"?

Re-read post #22

I notice you dismiss this shooting drill as mere parlor tricks, but I've noticed you've not given a drill for the range we can set up to test our multiple target skills, moving or not.

Enlisting wife and kids for airsoft training is one thing, but it doesn't address how to improve our multiple target skills.

 

[David E]

Yeah, not nearly as life-threatening as shooting at cardboard

<sigh>........once again, it is a SHOOTING drill !

Instead of attempting to mock the shooting drill posted, how about contributing something worthwhile? Like maybe your idea of what drill is good for improving target transitions on multiple targets? Do you even have one?
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[Shawn Dodson]

they may shoot where I WAS, hitting my wife/kids.

Your actions will probably determine when the shooting begins. You may have to attempt to shape the battle before you go to guns.

What are you supposed to do when you cannot move?

What options are available? It's going to depend on the situation.

How do you practice shooting multiple targets? How do you practice your transitions? How do your single/double tap/triple tap times compare to each other?

I don't fixate on split-second performance times.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

I notice you dismiss this shooting drill as mere parlor tricks, but I've noticed you've not given a drill for the range we can set up to test our multiple target skills, moving or not.

I did, with airsoft. You don't need a range. You can do it in your house, garage or backyard.

 

[David E]

I don't fixate on split-second performance times.

Praytell, what DO you "fixate" on ? It seems obvious to me that fast hits beat the hell out of slow hits. Or are you saying that time parameters don't matter at all ? I hesitate to ask what your thoughts are on accuracy....

I did, with airsoft. You don't need a range. You can do it in your house, garage or backyard.

So if I signed up with your school/class, we'd simply shoot airsoft in your backyard????

I asked for range drills about how can we improve our transitions for multiple targets.

If you don't have any drill ideas, just say so!

 

[Shawn Dodson]

It seems obvious to me that fast hits beat the hell out of slow hits. Or are you saying that time parameters don't matter at all ?

Against a human target the bullets you shoot may or may not have any effect. Indeed the bad guy(s) may not be aware that they've been shot. Getting effective hits quickly in a fight, against the right bad guys, the ones that are blocking your path of escape, is more important than programming yourself to shoot every bad guy involved in the fight.

I asked for range drills about how can we improve our transitions for multiple targets.

Self-defense encompasses more than just shooting. It involves minimizing your vulnerability to getting shot, stabbed, bludgeoned, etc. What options do you have to effectively minimize your vulnerability to these threats? Cover, concealment, movement and distance. If you find yourself without cover, concealment or distance, when the fight begins then you need to get moving. (If you can’t move then, unless they’re actively trying to murder you right now, you need to consider tactics that aren’t going to be immediately answered with gunfire.)

Set up four or five IPSC targets in any random pattern. Have a training partner call out left, right or center. You simultaneously present your gun and move with a purpose obliquely forward to the left, to the right, or right down the center of the target formation, shooting only those targets that are closest to you as you approach and pass by. Reach out and “shove” a target out of your way to get by. Put a dummy cartridge in your magazine to produce a stoppage. Train your mind to deal with multiple problems at once (targeting, movement, physical contact, gun handling, etc.).

You can perform the same training with airsoft, except have your opponents draw numbers to determine how many times you must shoot them before they’re out of the fight. The biggest lesson you’ll learn is that you have to move to keep from being shot.

Of primary importance don’t stand out in the open and shoot at targets. You should be programming yourself to shoot from behind cover or concealment, while on the move, or quickly moving to nearby cover/concealment.

 

[smince]

Instead of attempting to mock the shooting drill posted, how about contributing something worthwhile?

I believe I have been

Like maybe your idea of what drill is good for improving target transitions on multiple targets? Do you even have one?

Everything about FOF is closer to a real incident than your so called 'drill'. My Glock AirSoft fits my same carry holster and my draw is the same up until the actual shot is fired. There is even a bit of recoil with the gas blow back guns.

Shooting at moving targets who have a mind of their own is closer to reality than any stationary targets.

 

[Harvey]

Obviously, you totally missed the point of the drill: to build target acquisition skills along with comparing the time it takes to get to the third target.

This thread has caused an unusually high degree of inexplicable confusion...but maybe we can work thru it.

Just had a chance to read through the thread, and got to agree with you here, David ... and all of the hostility is for what reason?

Anyway, nice draw and split times. And back to your original point, I'd have to agree, that in most any circumstance, one shot to each of the BG's before returning would be MY way to go. Good job on the analysis.

The rest of the self-serving blather in this thread has made my head hurt ... need to go take a pill.

 

[roo_ster]

I'm coming in without reading the previous thread, where I suspect there was some sort of heated discussion I'm glad I missed.

When I was paid with taxpayer dollars, I did plenty of training. My unit had a large budget and we used it to good effect. Most tools mentioned were used, save airsoft. We shot at paper, cardboard on static ranges, MOUT live fires, the whole shebang.

These days, when I provide my own training budget and range access is problematic, I train differently out of necessity. I'd like to go to gun schools on a regular basis, but that is not going to happen any time soon. (Then I, too, could drop gun school instructor names )

Such drills as mentioned in the OP are handy, as is the timing of same. They are the next level of sophistication above single static targets. Introducing the time element is another level of sophistication. It is not the be-all, end-all of training one's self, but you gotta begin somewhere. Squawking about how it is not CQB live fire or force-on-force or something else it isn't makes as much sense as criticizing a hammer for not being a wrench.

Maybe the next step the author of the OP can take would be having the shooter move whilst engaging the targets. That can tell one about how precision & time of execution might be effected by the one's movement. There is a relationship between speed of shooter movement, precision of execution, and time required to execute. (And don't forget range to target.)

LL indicated means to introduce moving targets, which will add yet another level of sophistication. Other folks have suggested other ways that are likely within the means of normal folk. (RC cars & balloons, tires with center targets rolled down a slope, targets attached to a skid pulled by weights that are released by some means, etc.)

As for not timing the drills, I wonder how does one then quantify improvement? Oh, the usual target scoring can be used to measure precision of execution, but time required to execute is also of interest. I'd not dismiss it out of hand, especially when one has limited time & opportunity for any sort of firearms training. The time factor also increases the stress a bit.

As for remaining stationary, it is to be avoided if really bad things happen. Sometimes movement is problematic due to disability or circumstances. Learning to maximize one's chances from a static position has some worth. I recall Mas Ayoob had some interesting images & words in his Stressfire books on this. The most memorable were showing how one could pivot in place in a kneeling position, maybe on stairs (which would hamper movement), and still cover 360deg.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Squawking about how it is not CQB live fire or force-on-force or something else it isn't makes as much sense as criticizing a hammer for not being a wrench.

I agree.


More thoughts later this evening.

 

[David E]

Against a human target the bullets you shoot may or may not have any effect. Indeed the bad guy(s) may not be aware that they've been shot. Getting effective hits quickly in a fight, against the right bad guys, the ones that are blocking your path of escape, is more important than programming yourself to shoot every bad guy involved in the fight.

Shawn, I love ya, man, but fer cryin' out loud, you just don't seem to understand the whole thread, much less the first post.

No one is programming themselves to always shoot every available target at the scene. It is a shooting drill meant to improve awkward target transitions and to compare the single to double to triple tap times. I've said this repeatedly.

As for your quoted text above, I won't know if the badguy knows they're hit until I hit him! And sooner is better, right? Or do we disagree here, too?

The original drill involved 3 targets presenting a more or less equal threat and how best to proceed.

ASSuming you'll be able to move, ASSuming there is cover and/or concealment available and ASSuming you'll be able to hit them all (since some of us don't think learning how to best engage multiple targets is a valid thing to practice) seems a bit optimistic for some....

WHEN you can move and WHEN you have cover/concealment, that's great. But what if you don't?

Shooting on the move drills are valuable. Some ways are better than others to ensure good hits while moving. But if a shooting drill does not involve any movement, is it therefore totally worthless?

I asked for shooting drills and only got FoF scenarios from smince. Does Suarez only have his students engage in airsoft FoF scenarios? No, he doesn't. Is he wrong, too? Or does he understand that not all training should be FoF scenarios? That sometimes, one needs to practice certain, repeatable drills to improve one's skill level.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

No one is programming themselves to always shoot every available target at the scene. It is a shooting drill meant to improve awkward target transitions and to compare the single to double to triple tap times. I've said this repeatedly.

What other training do you perform in addition to this particular "drill"? I suspect none. If this is indeed true then you are programming yourself to stand in the open and shoot at every target.

I won't know if the badguy knows they're hit until I hit him!

He may not react at all to being shot, so you won't "know" that you've hit him. If reality doesn't match your expectations are you going to automatically transition to the next bad guy or are you going to stand there and continue shooting until you observe a reaction?

WHEN you can move and WHEN you have cover/concealment, that's great. But what if you don't?

What's the bad guys' motivation for cornering you? Most likely because they want to rob you. If you draw your gun on multiple bad guys who are in a substantial position of advantage then you're probably going to get shot. The objective is to not do anything that will compel them to shoot you (at the moment). That requires an option other than drawing your gun. However if shooting begins then you have to move if you want to survive. You don't have a choice. You'll be gunned down where you stand.

But if a shooting drill does not involve any movement, is it therefore totally worthless?

A static drill is okay if you're shooting from behind cover or concealment. I usually put a cardboard IPSC target at the firing line to "hide" behind when I perform static marksmanship training, and every magazine has a random dummy cartridge in it. You're going to fight the way you train, and if you "drill" to stand in the open and engage multiple targets then that's the way you're going to fight.

 

[David E]

What other training do you perform in addition to this particular "drill"? I suspect none.

Wow, that's a pretty big ASSumption you make based on me posting a single drill ! I'm beginning to see the problem here.........

If reality doesn't match your expectations are you going to automatically transition to the next bad guy or are you going to stand there and continue shooting until you observe a reaction?

If I have 3 deadly threats that are more or less equal, I will shoot the "most" deadly and then move on to the other 2, coming back for anyone left standing. If I can move, I will. If I read your previous post correctly, you'd fire at ONE guy and run past him, totally disregarding the other two threats. If you're alone and able to move, that might work. Of course, you could easily be shot in the back by the other two deadly threats you disregarded, but that's your call.

The objective is to not do anything that will compel them to shoot you (at the moment). That requires an option other than drawing your gun.

Praytell, what option(s) might you be talking about?

A static drill is okay if you're shooting from behind cover or concealment.

What world do you live in where cover or concealment is always available? In real life situations, there have been cops shot in the back while they were running to cover. Sometimes, it's best to stand and fight, as long as you are fast and accurate enough. But I'm sure you disagree.

I'm still waiting for your tranistion drills..........

__________________

 

[BullfrogKen]

What is a "drill"? It's training. It's training that's setting you up to fail.

A drill is a drill. Nothing more.


A drill can be part of a training regimen. But it doesn't have to be, nor does one particular drill necessarily encompass an entire training regimen.


Drills teach us very specific and concrete things about ourselves. It is useful to know how much time it takes us to perform a specific act. With a known time, we can put actions into context.

If we have the time we know we need to do something, that's useful information. If we don't have the time we know we need to do something, we must find a way to manipulate and create time.



Training provides us incomplete pictures, and only parts of a whole.

The real value of Force on Force is not necessarily in the act of shooting the gun. That's little more than a game of tag. Force on Force is valuable because we must use social skills and interact with live people. So we still need to go shoot our guns, and do it with live ammo. But we can't conduct live fire in Force on Force exercises, because then it would simply be a gunfight. So we still conduct live fire training on things we are willing to destroy.


A good, well-rounded training program recognizes the limitations and value of each aspect and approach to the study. And there is value in knowing how much time it takes to perform standard drills. But the value is in what it means to us, in the context of "do I have the time to do this or not? And if not, but I need to, how do I manipulate the circumstances, situation, and environment around me so I can create the time I need?"

That's about where the value of timed drills end.




I'm reminded of the tale of men trying to describe an elephant to each other in the dark . . .

 

[Gryffydd]

This drill is worthless because it doesn't help me hit moving targets at 600m with my bolt action rifle. It also does not help me deal with my "mother issues."

(just trying to fit in in this thread...)

 

[David E]

This drill is worthless because it doesn't help me hit moving targets at 600m with my bolt action rifle. It also does not help me deal with my "mother issues."

(just trying to fit in in this thread...)

Y'know, that post made my day !

 

[Fred Fuller]

Ken,

Thanks, but I'm beginning to believe you were right all along.

lpl

 

[smince]

"how do I manipulate the circumstances, situation, and environment around me so I can create the time I need?"

And that, IMO, is the value of FOF.