Draw times - whoa!

[RBid]

Potatohead,

You can start working on draw whenever you want.

1. Get training.

2. Dry practice at home. A lot.

3. Add a timer to dry practice. I use the Surefire Shot Timer app.

 

[Ankeny]

I have had folks that I coach work on the elements of the draw in DRY FIRE beginning pretty much at day one. However, I don't have them actually drop the hammer so-to-speak. Essentially, they are working on the mechanics of the presentation, and they are also training their visual skills.

What the heck, one might as well incorporate the draw while learning the elements of grip, balance, and stance. Afterall, isn't a proper grip one of the cornerstones of a proper draw?

 

[conw]

Potatohead,

You can start working on draw whenever you want.

1. Get training.

2. Dry practice at home. A lot.

3. Add a timer to dry practice. I use the Surefire Shot Timer app.

Regarding #3, another good option is a simple par timer like the gym boss, or guided recorded dry fire audio with built in par times. Claude Werner, who is a member of this board and acquaintance of David E, has an excellent version of the latter.

Btw, just a quick clarification on my last post, I agreed with what you were saying but wanted to expand on it. My intent wasn't to imply you didn't know TLG etc . Same thing here with this post. I just think riffing on what you've written could be useful to members like Potatohead.

 

[RBid]

Fair and good points, conw.

Speaking of expanding on posts to add value, THIS:

Afterall, isn't a proper grip one of the cornerstones of a proper draw?

...is also a very good value point.

It is a very good idea to break the draw down, and to really hammer the first part, beginning from rest, and ending with the strong hand in a high, strong grip on the pistol, with the pistol still seated in the holster, and the trigger finger board-straight over the frame. Burning that process in pretty much enables everything else in the draw stroke, right up until the press out.

 

[conw]

Agreed RBid. It reminds me of a Tom Givens truism, that trigger control is demonstrably more important than precise sight alignment. Exponentially moreso at close ranges, and still beats it out in an "either or" comparison at longer ranges.

I think lots of people who fumble or mess up the draw have issues with two parts: the "1" count of acquiring full grip, and/or they jerk the trigger or wait too long to press it (see: press out). I believe these two issues are related.

Proper grip is the foundation (IMO) of trigger control, and if you have the wrong grip your trigger control will be unpredictable at best. If you are readjusting your grip at the "3" count (hands meeting) or on the way to "4" (appropriate extension of the gun) you're going to be S-L-O-W.

I like the "flagged thumb" method of acquiring the grip in holster. It serves three equally important purposes. It prevents you from grabbing your cover garment, it moves your cover garment out of the way as you go through the vertical line, and it makes for a much faster support hand "mating" at the 3 count.

Claude Werner has a simply unbelievable set of guidelines on the 'net for both autoloaders and revolvers. It's the best pair of articles I've seen on the topic.

http://www.examiner.com/list/the-proper-grip-for-shooting-an-autoloading-pistol

I can't find the revolver version for some reason.

 

[peacemaker45]

Agreed RBid. It reminds me of a Tom Givens truism, that trigger control is demonstrably more important than precise sight alignment. Exponentially moreso at close ranges, and still beats it out in an "either or" comparison at longer ranges.

I think lots of people who fumble mess up two parts: the "1" count of acquiring full grip, and/or they jerk the trigger or wait too long to press it (see: press out). I believe these two issues are related.

Proper grip is the foundation (IMO) of trigger control, and if you have the wrong grip your trigger control will be unpredictable at best. If you are readjusting your grip at the "3" count (hands meeting) or on the way to "4" (appropriate extension of the gun) you're going to be S-L-O-W.

To join in the expansion:

Proper grip is actually more important even than that. Having a consistent grip is key to having the sights already aligned at press out, so all you do is see confirmation of alignment, rather than standing there aiming.

Proper neutral grip is also critical for recoil control. It lets the front sight track straight up and down, then return to proper alignment, instead of having to aim, or realign for every shot.

 

[RBid]

conw and Mat,

I agree, 100%. Further, burning in the habit of acquiring that strong grip proves beneficial when shooting from retention/#2. Doing that kind of up close and personal defensive shooting is an ugly enough proposition without compounding the situation with a doo-doo grip on the pistol.

 

[conw]

For sure mat. Good points. You are also getting into the concept of the "index" of body position, grip, and sight alignment. That's something I don't trust myself to explain well enough online to help anyone new, but is definitely part of being fast.

My brief attempt: when your drawstroke and body position are standardized and you've gotten hundreds or thousands of reps where the sights are well aligned throughout the horizontal line of presentation, you begin to trust the sights will be where they need to be. This allows you to move faster and work on seeing the sights faster and sooner and push speed more until you find a new weak link such as trigger control, etc.

For me there are other "confirming" elements such as where my dominant eye is looking and where my support hand thumb is pointing (for autoloaders). I present through that same horizontal plane which allows a greater degree of uniformity with each drawstroke and less reliance on vision to achieve sight alignment. Vision confirms correct sight alignment rather than wasting my time adjusting it.

 

[mokin]

I bought a Pocket Pro four years ago or so and now it is pretty much part of my range kit now. I don't use it every trip, but I have the option and I try to use it regularly. I can get my first shot off in just under 2 seconds, from a concealed position, with my back to the target. That's forever but I'm working on it.

For an interesting discussion on QCB drawing/drills check this out.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=719705

 

[Potatohead]

Ok. Thanks for the advice fellas. I will start adding a dry draw routine to my dry firing practice. Im not sure why I didn't think of that, it seems obvious now that I see it written. For some reason I was thinking you have to be at the range to practice your draw. Duh.

 

[conw]

I bought a Pocket Pro four years ago or so and now it is pretty much part of my range kit now. I don't use it every trip, but I have the option and I try to use it regularly. I can get my first shot off in just under 2 seconds, from a concealed position, with my back to the target. That's forever but I'm working on it.

For an interesting discussion on QCB drawing/drills check this out.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=719705

I don't know, under 2 with your back turned... What's your time if you start facing the target? I'd say under 1.5 from concealment is very acceptable.

 

[gym]

Biggest mistake I ever made was zipping up a leather jacket, over my revolver, back in 1979. I walked right into 5 armed men coming in the door.
That's why I pocket carry now, even if I have a main gun in a holster. If you want to feel useless having a gun under a zippered leather jacket will accomplish that. Having your hand on the gun , is the best way to assure that it is available immediately.
Also practice shooting with one hand. That extra few tenths of a second can get you shot. It's much easier to take a shot to your extreme left , or right, using one hand instead of turning your body. Try shooting across your weak side. It's much faster. Juts get used to the gun being close to your head, and wear ear protection. If you ever have to shoot to the far left from the right hand, that gun is going to be in your ear with no plugs in it.
You will find that you can shoot as well with one hand, as with two, if you have to. Hell that's the way it was done for many years. Once you know where the threat is, then you can go and put the second hand on the gun.

 

[Ankeny]

You will find that you can shoot as well with one hand, as with two, if you have to.

As of yet, I haven't found that to be true, and I practice shooting strong hand only/weak hand only a lot. Unless maybe you are talking about bad breath distance...

 

[gym]

No I am talking 15 yards. I can shoot a revolver or a glock type auto pistol, dead on with my strong hand. That's the way we learned 45 years ago. I can shoot almost as good with my weak hand at 7 yard distances. Been doing this a long time, and practice one handed shooting every time I go to the range.
You may not have time to get a grip on the gun with both hands, fast drawing out of a holster, with someone off to your side. Turning your body will take longer than pointing your arm.
Be glad to show you if you get up my way.
Sometimes you only get to use one hand, you may be shot in the other, my advise is, if you don't spend 10 minutes every time you train, you aren't maximizing your time. Shoot with either hand until it just becomes second nature, the 2 handed shooting position is fairly new, as gunfighters and soldiers up until the 50's or 60's.
In Mythbusters, there is an episode in which they compared many firing stances, including having a gun in each hand and found that, compared to the two-handed single gun stance as a benchmark, only the one handed shoulder level stance with a single gun was comparable in terms of accuracy and speed. The ability to look down the sights of the gun was given as the main reason for this.[7] In an episode the following year, they compared holding two guns and firing simultaneously—rather than alternating left and right shots— with holding one gun in the two-handed stance, and found that the results were in favor of using two guns and firing simultaneously.[8]

 

[gym]

If you can pick up your hand and point at something, you can hit it with a bullet. You might need some weight training or other muscle building techniques to strengthen you arm if you don't have sufficient muscle mass to hold a gun steady with one hand.
But just because modern teaching techniques show you one way to do something, don't think that all those fellows who were shooting guns for the past couple hundred years were using 2 hands to do it.
Did you ever see a cowboy use 2 hands in those old westerns, Buffalo bill and many others managed to dispatch many a man to the promised land at some distance, using one hand, "and those old navy colts weighted as much as two glocks.
Back when men were men, and sheep were nervous.
Same goes for horse soldiers, who carried the reigns in one hand and drew their sidearm with the other. Horses have a habit of leaving when guns go off.

 

[RBid]

Gym,

Top end performance potential is not the same with 1 hand as it is with 2. This is why single hand pistol shooting is no longer the go-to. Sure, it is possible to be incredibly accurate with one hand. Brian Zins and others have proven that to be true. Where 2 hand grips dramatically prove their worth is when it comes to accuracy with speed.

This simply can't be equalled with 1 hand, or it would be. The finest shooters in the world shoot this way, with very good reason. This particular shooter is Frank Proctor, an Army SF veteran and USPSA Grandmaster...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaFNkKyD-bI

 

[gym]

That's far from the point, which is there are times that you are more likely to be first and make a solid shot because you drew and fired, especially if you are right handed and the threat is on your far right, and if you wear a cross draw holster even more so. I am not saying that it should be used all of the time, only that everyone should know how to do it.
The same holds true for weak hand shooting, "one handed". If you are shot , in the shoulder or arm, it becomes necessary to hone these skills so as not to be "lost" because you never practiced for it.
It also has a lot to do with when you started shooting. Now it seems like anyone who has a license, can go over the weekend and become an instructor. There is a lot more than 2 hands and a modified Weaver stance, to being able to shoot yourself out of a real gunfight.
I don't want to sound like an old fart, but you should know every way to shoot a gun, from racking a slide with your leg to shooting with either hand, these things are important when things don't go as planned, or as someone told you they should.

 

[RBid]

Gym,

I agree with everything in that post. Thank you for clarifying.

 

[David E]

In many actual gunfights, the good guy only used one hand when there really wasn't a compelling reason to do so.

A well rounded shooter does not neglect one handed shooting.
.

 

[Ankeny]

Gym:

Yeah, thanks for the clarification. I was thinking in terms of multiple shots, multiple targets, etc. on the clock.

 

[Series 70]

I just tried to download the Surefire Shot Timer app from the iTunes store. It said the app was no longer available. Grrr.

 

[RBid]

Series 70,

Rather than going through iTunes, go through the App Store. It should still be up.

 

[cowtownup]

Using the random start with my hands down by my side and shirt over my gun IWB it took me 3.18 to get first shot off...

I NEED PRACTICE and LOTS OF IT...

 

[RBid]

Using the random start with my hands down by my side and shirt over my gun IWB it took me 3.18 to get first shot off...

I NEED PRACTICE and LOTS OF IT...

It speeds up very quickly as it becomes familiar. Doing everything in slow motion to start, isolating counts, etc will all get you where you want to be.

When you watch strong performers, you'll note that they seem like fluid robots. The movements are precise, even as it flows smoothly. Bob Vogel's draw models what I'm trying to explain.

 

[Anmut]

Just an update, I've been hitting the range three times a week since I posted this. Best time I have hit has been 2.68. That is with my hands in my jacket pocket, taking the the zippered jacket up and back, and gun in a IWB holster and having all three shots on steel at 10 yards. I am consistently under 3 seconds now too.