Drawing on a knifewielder- Escalation?

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NG VI said:
And I do worry very much about what would happen if we were in a situation where someone needed immediate shooting, not so much because she might try to stop me, but because her first reaction to anything would be to grab me and start pulling on me, …

We were having some difficulties this weekend and her response to me asking not to be touched was to start grabbing me, pulling on my face in directions I wasn't trying to look, grabbing my arms, all I had wanted was a little breathing room and her reaction was to not give me ANY. It was hairy for me.
This is more indicative of the problem than her apparent ignorance of the lawfully authorized use of deadly force. I say “apparent“ because what you just described are the actions of a controlling person who has little respect for others. Beyond the relationship between a parent and young child, civil people do not behave in such a manner. It‘s quite possible that she knows full well that her assertion is incorrect, but is misrepresenting it to further her agenda.

The mom? Well… Something about the apple not falling far from the tree.
 
The martial artist was sued for "excessive force" despite using only his hands.

His hands, like a boxer, are considered weapons. Additionally, any one can sue for anything at any time. Winning or loosing the suit is what sets the precedent.
 
The Tourist

On behalf of the New York City Police Department and myself, thank you for your kind words.
 
Some people get a warning bell when they hear or see a problem. This one set of a full Chinese bell-and-gong chorus:

>We were having some difficulties this weekend and her response to me asking not to be touched was to start grabbing me, pulling on my face in directions I wasn't trying to look, grabbing my arms, all I had wanted was a little breathing room and her reaction was to not give me ANY. It was hairy for me.<

Ok... reach over your head, firmly grasp the yellow-and-black striped handles, and pull down and forward sharply. Keep your arms and legs in tight, and enjoy the ride.

EJECTEJECTEJECT!!!

If someone responds to a reasonable request for "space" by acting in the manner you describe, you want to get as far away as possible, as fast as possible...
 
His hands, like a boxer, are considered weapons.

Incorrect. If he uses his hands in the manner in which he has been trained to inflict greater than normal damage than possible for another person not so trained, then the hands are considered weapons. Note that it is the use, not the hands. The difference: if a trained martial artist slaps someone with an open hand, that's nothing someone with no training couldn't do; if he hits someone with a knife hand strike in a vital area, then he is using the hand as a weapon, possibly a deadly weapon depending on the degree of damage caused. It's a fine distinction, but it's all in the use of the hands, not the hands themselves.

We were having some difficulties this weekend and her response to me asking not to be touched was to start grabbing me, pulling on my face in directions I wasn't trying to look, grabbing my arms, all I had wanted was a little breathing room and her reaction was to not give me ANY. It was hairy for me.

This is domestic battery at the very least. +1 on the EJECTEJECTEJECT! Someone who acts this way will wind up getting you hit with domestic battery yourself eventually. Bye-bye gun rights...

I'm afraid that my only way to make her let go so I could deal with the incident would be to slug her.

Again, definite bad juju. Domestic battery, bye-bye gun rights. RUN! Don't walk, to the nearest exit...
 
Knife versus gun

Someone who has a knife and goes attacking someone with a gun obviously is mentally unbalanced or has an IQ in low single digits.

I assume you want to keep your relationship with your girlfriend and her Mom, so you have to give them the opportunity to save face.

I suggest that rather than argue with them, you say, you know what, let's do some research on this because I don't ever want to find myself needing legal services on a "murder charge"

Thank her for her concern, and do your research.

I would start with the following.

What is the training and custom of law enforcement officers that serve and protect us where we live.

What are they told to do in such a circumstance, especially for their undercover cops which probably won't be carrying tasers.

I figure that if you follow, within reason what is custom for cops regarding deadly force, you stregthen your position.

Cops are on offense, they have to go after bad guys.
We are on defense, all we are doing is standing our ground, the bad guy can leave and most know that we won't give chase or shoot them in the back.

That is why probably 99 percent of the time, we never have to actually shoot.

After you establish that she is wrong, don't gloat about it, rather be nice, take her and her Mom to lunch or dinner and tell them how much you appreciate their concern for you.

Yeah, I know, I'm going soft and mussy, but hey, would you rather her cuddling you or giving you the cold shoulder.

Nicki
 
I'm afraid that my only way to make her let go so I could deal with the incident would be to slug her.

Exactly why you must **** now, before cops and lawyers become involved in a dispute over who slugged who and why.
 
There were times when I and my partners could not fire on someone due to innocent pedestrians behind the culprit. That's just one of hundreds of examples. Reality is quite different from non threatening drills. I'm sure other officers who post here would agree. Twenty years with the New York City Police Dept. has taught me that.

I agree that different circumstances change your actions. I'm one of the officers who posts here regularly and I've been on the street, though not in NYC. The point remains that the idea that Tueller was trying to get across was that standing in the same spot and attempting to shoot someone attacking you with a contact weapon isn't a good idea. 21 feet is the distance the average person can cross before the average shooter can draw and shoot, even if you know the attack is coming. It's not the magic number it has become and was never intended to be anything more than a rule of thumb. If it's a field situation, you aren't going to get close to getting within 21 feet of me before I start asking to see your hands.
 
And I do worry very much about what would happen if we were in a situation where someone needed immediate shooting, not so much because she might try to stop me, but because her first reaction to anything would be to grab me and start pulling on me, and in the heat of the moment I'm afraid that my only way to make her let go so I could deal with the incident would be to slug her. For obvious reasons I would never feel the same about myself after crossing that line.

We were having some difficulties this weekend and her response to me asking not to be touched was to start grabbing me, pulling on my face in directions I wasn't trying to look, grabbing my arms, all I had wanted was a little breathing room and her reaction was to not give me ANY. It was hairy for me.
Her thought processes seem somewhat chaotic to me, as do her interpersonal skills.

She strikes me as somebody who makes the choice of being with someone else or alone the preferable one.
 
Evacuate Immediately

As far as the comments about ditching her, they actually aren't out of line, we have very little in common now that I know her more and I am really getting worn out by being around her. It's just hard for me to follow through without feeling guilty for hurting her in some way.

We were having some difficulties this weekend and her response to me asking not to be touched was to start grabbing me, pulling on my face in directions I wasn't trying to look, grabbing my arms, all I had wanted was a little breathing room and her reaction was to not give me ANY. It was hairy for me.

NG - READ what you just wrote to us. Forget about the lefal issue being discussed - you need to get OUT of this involvement, NOW. It's on;y going to get worse. "Milking it" to get more relationship experience isn't worth the risks and the aggravation.

In case I wasn't clear enough, LEAVE THIS ONE. NOW. Stop putting her potential hurt feelings ahead of your well being.
 
I got my BS in Criminal Justice a LONG time ago...1992,U Mass@Lowell. That said, I can't believe a CJ student from Maine would have even more of a sStalinist mindset than some of my teachers(who thought "damn the law-GUNS ARE BAD!!")
 
I'm posting this right away without reading the whole thread, so forgive if it's been stated:

Present your girlfriend with the hypothetical that she is alone and cornered by a 300 pound brute who makes clear his intentions are to have his way with her and then strangle her with his bare hands.

According to her theory, the law would allow her to resist only with her muscle power (or, maybe pepper spray). Does she really believe that if she used a gun to put this guy down the law wouldn't back her up?

K
 

  • NG VI said:
    I was talking to my girlfriend this weekend, and somehow the situation of someone assaulting me (or anyone else with a gun) with a knife, no particular situation, just any situation where a dude with a knife attacks someone who then draws and rightly fires on the individual.

    She said that it would be illegal to draw or fire on the person since that would be "escalating the situation". as if deadly force is anything but deadly force. she was saying that if someone attacks you, in any way, you are only legally "allowed" to use the exact same type of force in defense. that blew my mind. I asked her, "if some junkie or meth head were to stick us up and I drew on him, you're saying that I would be imprisoned and eventually found guilty of some crime?"

    I can't speak on Maine's laws, but in Texas, if force is justified, so is deadly force,

    TexasRifleman said:
    You cannot respond to force with deadly force, in general.

    From Texas Penal Code:
    § 9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON. (a) A person
    is justified in using deadly force against another:
    (1) if the actor would be justified in using force
    against the other under Section 9.31;

    http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/PE/content/htm/pe.002.00.000009.00.htm#9.32.00
 
pulling a knife and trying to stick it into someone is commission of a crime normally called "assualt with a deadly weapon" or if they are more sucesseful. "felony agravated assault with intent to commit murder or great bodily harm".

In just about every jurisdicton the intended victim has the legal right to defend themselves from the assault in progress using their weapon of choice.
 
Nicki said:

Someone who has a knife and goes attacking someone with a gun obviously is mentally unbalanced or has an IQ in low single digits.

This is not true at all. I mostly carry a gun, but sometimes, by circumstance of where I am going, (beach, bars, posted no carry areas), I cannot. If there is no metal detector, I am always carrying at least one knife that makes the sheeple blanch.

Right now, that knife is a Benchmade 610 Rukus with the Axis lock.

DansPhonePics041.jpg

I've drilled on drawing guns for years and am still way faster with the knife, especially when seated and especially with a rapid deployer like the typical AXIS lock or a smaller fixed blade.

If I am ever caught in a victim disarmament zone with only a knife, I will fully consider attacking a gun wielder depending how things are going and especially if the gun is seemingly being used as "all show" as an intimidation device.

It does help that I know many FMA traps that are very useful for knife work. If I am in range of grabbing a lethal perp's arm and get even partial or momentary control over it he's going to have continued trouble living.

Knives are tremendously lethal. The key is that the practitioner has to be close, not be brandishing and bluffing, and absolutely has to have the will to stab the threat to death not just slash him up. The best knife attack is one that the intended target only knows about when he feels it enter over and over.

Think of a venue like V-Tech. An admittedly ballsy knife wielder could have taken the maniac at the right ambush point of him coming through a door or during a reload. It'd be equal parts luck, courage, and tactics, but if one gets in contact distance, it can be done and frankly the advantage at contact shifts to the knife wielder presuming its owner knows how to use it to best effect and isn't at all squeamish about it. A pistol only has one axis of attack, and that is where it is pointed at a target. A well constructed knife has at least three between the tip, the edge, and a pointy pommel and doesn't require nearly the accuracy a bullet does to deal fearsome injuries. A handgun bullet, featuring no hydrostatic effects, is akin to being stabbed with a very long ice pick. A serious knife artist with a lot of anatomical knowledge can do better than that by having multiple targets mentally selected as they present themselves opportunistically during a struggle and no reloading problem.

Giving the coup de grace to and field dressing game animals is good practice for getting over how "messy" a knife can be.

If a perp brandishes a knife at me and I have the time and space, I'm shooting him without further analysis. I know what a skilled knife user is capable of, and I am not giving him the time for a demonstration of his edged weapon resume if I can help it.

He doesn't have to be nuts, just determined, and that level of determination can be rather unnerving to those who don't understand it, hence all of the training out there for cops and others who think that the mere presence of a sidearm is some talismanic ward against being stabbed.
 
Cops are on offense, they have to go after bad guys.

Nicki

I have to completely disagree with you on this and I think the LEOs here will agree with me. The only time an LEO is on offense is if they are either in pursuit of a BG or have responded to a call, and maybe not even then. The vast majority of the time an LEO will be in a defensive condition, maybe on a higher level than most of us are willing to be on, but definitely higher than most people.

Back to the OPs original statement. I am really surprised at his "girlfriend's" comment because from what I've read on various studies most people are actually more afraid of knives than they are guns and would probably few a knife attack as being the more dangerous. This isn't too hard to understand because there are few people who haven't been cut by something in their life time and as most know a cut can really hurt. Few people have been shot so they don't have any idea about how that would feel. And for those that have had the misfortune to have been both cut and shot the vast majority say if they had a choice they'd rather be shot.
 
This is why I carry 120 guns of different calibers every day, along with an assortment of other weapons. I have to drag a wagon along behind me everywhere I go, but when my life is in danger I'll feel secure with the knowledge that I can match almost any weapon an attacker decides to use against me. The hard part will be getting him or her to wait while I choose the proper weapon for the threat. When I get a raise, I'll hire a guy to do that part for me.
 
sacp81170a states:

Incorrect. If he uses his hands in the manner in which he has been trained to inflict greater than normal damage than possible for another person not so trained, then the hands are considered weapons.

I just love guys who start off by saying "incorrect".
However, thanks for reiterating my original point. Matter of fact, in some states, if you achieve professional status i.e. boxer, martial arts expert, etc., you must register your hands as weapons.

sacp81170a states:

"standing in the same spot and attempting to shoot someone attacking you with a contact weapon isn't a good idea".

The sergeant was out in the open with no cover, responding to a call "man down" at a hotel. The culprit emerged suddenly from a doorwar running towards the sergeant with the knife in his hand. Any reasonable suggestions as to what the sergeant should have done to avoid being stabbed, without getting into hypotheticals, would be taken into consideration? I don't want this to get into a " he could have, he should have" scenario.
If you read my post clearly, this should have jumped out at you.

" It happened so fast that my sergeant did not have the time to move to either side and possibly avoid bodily contact. This was some years ago when .38 revolvers were the issued weapon".

Do your research and take all the time you need to propose a tactical maneuver that would have prevented the sergeant from being stabbed.

Your quote:

If it's a field situation, you aren't going to get close to getting within 21 feet of me before I start asking to see your hands.

Oh really! And if he's already charging you with the knife as the case with the sergeant, are you going to say "Police don't move"? Give me a break officer. Forgive me for saying so, but if you are a police officer as you stated, perhaps some retraining is necessary.
 
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We were having some difficulties this weekend and her response to me asking not to be touched was to start grabbing me, pulling on my face in directions I wasn't trying to look, grabbing my arms, all I had wanted was a little breathing room and her reaction was to not give me ANY. It was hairy for me.
You need to break up, right now, or she needs to go to counselling, right now. This is the start of an abusive relationship. She will either assault you (which she kindasorta already has), or she will push your buttons until you assault her, or she will make a claim that you assaulted her.

She will not get better without help, your relationship will not sort itself out without help, this will not end well. Period. Read that sentence again. If you love her and she's The One that is worth all of the trouble, you need to take the necessary steps, right now. If she's not The One and not worth all of the trouble, you also have something to do, right now. Hanging around for no good reason will only cause trouble. She will be more attached, you'll be more frustrated, and when it goes south it will go south harder. Fix it, now, or get out, now. Don't stay in this relationship to learn something, all you will learn is how people exist in a sick relationship. That's like taking self-help advice from Brittney Spears.

Besides, your days on this earth are finite, and your future wife might wander by, see you, and go "Oh, darn. He's taken."

Mike
 
You have no relationship to save... People do NOT change from a zero to a hero, let alone overnight, let alone when they are an adult. Changes in ideology and attitudes are possible for mature adults who keep an open-mind and are generally stable, but nobody will go from being of the mentality where they feel entitled to hit another person during an argument, or to coerce them, into a mentality where they feel they should respect everybody around them.

She is a loser... Lose her before you wind up in over your head. Somebody who is an adult who has grown up and developed to the point where they sincerely believe they are entitled to hit another person, let alone they are supposed to care about, over any matter, let alone simple disagreements, is somebody who is not going to change. Who and what they are is cemented in place and neither they nor their values are going anywhere.

It is not a matter of changing from Democrat to Republican, or anti-gun to pro-gun. You're asking somebody to change their underlying alues and their personality. These things really do NOT happen. Once you've developed the wrong way, you're pretty much what you are. She is what she is, an abuser.

You can do better...

Don't play the counselling the game, that's just something abusers undergo as a matter of show, "oh look at me, I'm trying to get better..." meanwhile you become more attached to them or wind up with a kid in the situation... Leave and leave NOW.

If you fell into love with her, fall out of love with her, and fast.
 
We were having some difficulties this weekend and her response to me asking not to be touched was to start grabbing me, pulling on my face in directions I wasn't trying to look, grabbing my arms, all I had wanted was a little breathing room and her reaction was to not give me ANY. It was hairy for me.

Sorry, partner, but get out. Don't look back. Run. She has more issues than just not understanding "escalation."

ECS
 
Well, I haven't read most of this thread. The only reason I'm making a comment here is because of something that happened recently in Grand Rapids, Mi. recently.

First of all you need to know the laws in your state regarding self defense and/or whether it is incumbent on you to retreat as the first line of self defense.

Michigan has a Castle Doctrine and a No Retreat Law. Recently a fellow pulled in to get some gas at a station and was confronted by another man. That man initiated the contact and began accusing the first fellow of messing around with his (the second guy's) girlfriend. The discussion got heated and the 2nd guy grabbed the plastic cover off of a trash can and raised it and lunged at the first fellow. The first fellow was licensed to carry concealed. He drew his handgun and shot the 2nd guy to death.
One shot. The prosecutor issued a ruling of self defense. There was a camera recording the filling area of the station and the activity was caught on tape.

It's not about escalation, it's about self defense. But you need to know the law in your state.
 
However, thanks for reiterating my original point. Matter of fact, in some states, if you achieve professional status i.e. boxer, martial arts expert, etc., you must register your hands as weapons.

Cite please. Relevant statutes from any state will do. And exactly what does "professional status" mean? I'm a dan rank and a certified instructor in several martial arts, have done so for money and have never seen a state or federal law requiring registration in this country. Some of the folks I have practiced with from the UK do have to register, but they don't register their hands, they register themselves. The feet can be far more deadly than the hands, do they have to be registered separately? What about elbows, shins and knees? Good grief, I'm a walking arsenal and didn't know it. :rolleyes:

If you are certified in some fashion and use your training to inflict damage you will be held to a higher standard in court, but there is no registration requirement that I'm aware of.

The sergeant was out in the open with no cover, responding to a call "man down" at a hotel. The culprit emerged suddenly from a doorwar running towards the sergeant with the knife in his hand. Any reasonable suggestions as to what the sergeant should have done to avoid being stabbed, without getting into hypotheticals, would be taken into consideration? I don't want this to get into a " he could have, he should have" scenario.
If you read my post clearly, this should have jumped out at you.

If you'll read my post, you'll see that I was making a comment not on the specific incident but on Tueller's ideas. I won't go into hypotheticals because I wasn't there. The fact remains that what Tueller was trying to get people to realize (and many other professional trainers have come to this realization too) is that gun handling skills aren't the only tools you need in a confrontation where contact weapons are involved. No big mystery.

Do your research and take all the time you need to propose a tactical maneuver that would have prevented the sergeant from being stabbed.

Sadly, if he didn't realize the nature of the attack until it was too late, no maneuver he executed could have prevented him from being stabbed. That's precisely what Tueller was trying to get across. If he was in the open, being aware of the danger of contact weapons vs. guns, he might have simply gotten off the X more positively before he drew his weapon and started firing. I don't know the layout of where the incident took place, but being missed by an inch is as good as being missed by a yard. It was tragic, and sometimes there's just nothing you can do, but we're getting better with training now.

Oh really! And if he's already charging you with the knife as the case with the sergeant, are you going to say "Police don't move"? Give me a break officer.

Absolutely not. My training now is to move first, get to a position of advantage while you're doing all those other things. Fractions of a second do make a difference and your training determines how you use the fractions of a second that you have available to you. You certainly won't have time to think about it and plan out what your reaction should be.

Forgive me for saying so, but if you are a police officer as you stated, perhaps some retraining is necessary.

You're forgiven, because snap judgements in an online forum are all too easy to get upset about. How long have you been off the street? This is what's being taught in the academies now, using incidents like your sergeant's as an example. Again, I'm not second guessing you or your sergeant, I'm making a statement about the changes in training, at least the current thought that I'm aware of. YMMV. ;)
 
Sadly, if he didn't realize the nature of the attack until it was too late, no maneuver he executed could have prevented him from being stabbed.

After an exhausting investigation that was precisely the outcome.

How long have you been off the street?

Three years. I put 17 years in the street working uniformed patrol, plain clothes anti crime unit, and under cover for the intelligence division. My last three were at the police academy where I taught social sciences and penal law. Being a firearms marksman, I also taught in the firearms and tactics unit.
I received my training in the military where I was a light weapons expert both here in the states and as an infantryman in Vietnam as a squad leader.

I wish to thank you for your input. I think we both have made our points and further discussion would be unnecessary.

If your still in the street, be safe, and make going home at the end of your tour your main priority.....
 
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