Drawing on a knifewielder- Escalation?
- Thread starter NG VI
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Zach S
Member
I'm not reading all five pages. Probably wont be back either. After three pages I give up on keeping up with a thread.
IIRC, this is adressed in the video for the NC CCW class. A drunk staggers out of a bar and out in front of a pickup. Drunk starts beating driver, driver pulls a knife, drunk says he's finished with the fight, driver starts towards him and drunk shoots.
Mr. Bow Tie narrator said it was a good shoot, however the drunk was carrying illegally, you know, since he was drunk.
IIRC, this is adressed in the video for the NC CCW class. A drunk staggers out of a bar and out in front of a pickup. Drunk starts beating driver, driver pulls a knife, drunk says he's finished with the fight, driver starts towards him and drunk shoots.
Mr. Bow Tie narrator said it was a good shoot, however the drunk was carrying illegally, you know, since he was drunk.
sacp81170a
Member
Thank you, sir.
sacp81170a
Member
OK, someone's gotta say it: "What was a knife doing in your drawers?"
(Insert rim shot here) Thank you, thank you ladies and gentlemen... (bows and runs off the stage just ahead of the rotten tomatoes and cabbages)
While I think it is important to use self defense to stop the attack, and not chase the attacker, I would have a hard time imagining that the drunk could claim self defense at that point. The driver may not be in the right, but neither was the drunk. I don't think you can claim self defense while just having committed a crime.
I sat on a jury for a sort of similar case where an unarmed guy attacked a man and the man pulled out a .25 auto and shot him, killing him. What we didn't hear right away was that the man had the gun in his hand already and had just robbed the guy. He got murder and 40 years. Tough judge.
There was a case in Texas not too long after the CHL started of a guy who was acquitted for shooting an unarmed man who was beating on him. The attacker was a good bit bigger and was holding him up against his door and beating on him. He was acquitted since fists can cause "serious bodily injury" which is part of the justification of deadly force in Texas.
I see drawing a gun on a knifeweilder as a de-escalation.
It should force the knife guy to de-escalate. We live in a "forcefull" world.
As far as the bad-guy being a martial artist, I'm authorized to go above his level of force if he displays an ability to defeat me. If he tries to prove a martial art advantage he doesn't actualy have, well; that's his bad. His potential disparity of force necessitates my use of extra-ordinary force.
It should force the knife guy to de-escalate. We live in a "forcefull" world.
As far as the bad-guy being a martial artist, I'm authorized to go above his level of force if he displays an ability to defeat me. If he tries to prove a martial art advantage he doesn't actualy have, well; that's his bad. His potential disparity of force necessitates my use of extra-ordinary force.
The Tourist
member
KenW. said:
My state of Wisconsin has no provisions for CCW carry. You either carry open (usually in rural situations), you carry "off-body" or you do without.
If I'm working, chances are I'll just have a knife. I should add that it's never a Swiss Army Knife.
If someone was stupid enough to brandish a firearm during a negative confrontation, I would kill him as fast as I can.
I'm not going to de-escalate anything. I don't know if the guy is a poser or a trained mercenary. And I certainly don't care if he's acting like a big-shot to show his fancy new gun or if he has started the process of escalation.
There are several things I feel very strongly about. As you know from previously postings, being retired makes the world a less aggravated place to live. But I am not a mind-reader. I don't know you and I don't what stimuli set you off. Your girl friend might have kicked you out and received TRO.
You touch that gun and you will die. And I feel very strongly on that.
alsaqr
Member
Every year a few cops are killed by scumbags with knives. Better take a knife wielder very seriously. If someone threatens me with a knife he will be summarily double-tapped.
In this county the prosecutor will not send a righteous self defense shooting case to the grand jury.
In this county the prosecutor will not send a righteous self defense shooting case to the grand jury.
The Tourist
member
alsaqr said:
This is something that should be discussed in gun forums on a regular basis. In fact, if you can find articles written by Jerry Vancook I suggest that you add them to your home library of information.
The very real problem is that it just doesn't seem logical that a trained police officer or a soldier is ever in any real danger facing a knife. After all, the professional has so many weapons at his disposal that attacks with edged weapons could appear as suicidal.
What most people don't know (or care to admit) is that most super steels, or well tempered carbon steels will easily penetrate kevlar.
Coupled with that, lots of ex-convicts are simply better knife fighters. They've had years to practice...
One of my goals here is to make sure we never swallow that old gag about "knives to a gunfight."
It point of fact, a relative rookie with a crisp new CCW license is not much of threat to a determined person with a knife. My only training was high school and college fencing and I'm amazed at the advantage even that has given me.
We shouldn't brandish anyway. In most municipalities it's a crime all by itself.
However, my position is that brandishing is foolish act to a guy with a knife. I know it would be for me. It's the starting signal that your opponent has superior firepower, and you do not know the level of his training.
To hang on to any chance of survival, you must kill the guy as quickly as possible.
And this is the lesson we have to get out to younger guys or guys with new CCW licenses. You are not going to impress someone with your shiny new gun. You're going to scare him. He has no idea how many seconds he has to live, and he will try to survive.
You remember I mentioned Jerry Vancook. His advice to a guy with a knife facing a firearm is this, "A bad chance is better than no chance at all."
I believe him, and I will adopt his advice.
Much depends on the circumstances. I've handled many disputes and each are unique in and of themselves. Sometimes people are in such close proximity of each other, that one could be on top of another in a second. In my years of law enforcement, I've always tried to maintain a safe distance, make it a habit of watching peoples hands and only glance at their face once in a while, and if in a house or apartment, stay away from the kitchen where one could easily grab a weapon, knife, fork, hot water, etc. Even when knocking on a door or ringing a bell, I would stand to the side. Officers in my department (New York City PD) have been shot through doors, and have had acid thrown in their faces when the homeowner opened the door. You can't be too careful out there.......
csmkersh
Member
The shooter was a Gordon Hale and the shootee was a man name Tavai who was younger and a 100 pounds heavier. Hale was seated in his vehicle with his seat belt fastened when Ta vai began beating him about the head and shoulders.MecAg94 said:
Hale was on the verge of unconsciousness when he fired. He suffered damage to his vision and the ME stated that the beating could have caused his death if it had continued.
Scap81170a has offered some good advice both on the domestic violence issue and Tueller Rule. On Tueller, Texas DPS taught that if confronted with an impact weapon or a cutting/stabbing weapon, if the perp was approaching to fire and keep firing until you were either out of ammo or the threat was stopped.
The Tourist
member
tpaw said:
Boy, you're not kidding. I still do this and I consider just another use of condition yellow.
You know, old bikers never die--we just turn more gray than our paint jobs.
To this day if I spidie-sense something going wrong, I still observe my potential aggressor for any discernable 'soft spots.'
Now, you tell some folks this, and a debate ensues. We're supposed to be the good guys. We're supposed to be against wanton aggression and represent the side of "fair play." And if left alone, I certainly try to live and reflect those ideals.
Of course, after this many winters I've seen lot of fertilizer go through the A/C. As a younger boy, I was amazed at how fast and violent a real attack comes at you. You almost want to blurt out, "Hey, can we do that over again, I wasn't ready..."
My wife has admonished me about "sizing up strangers" and something blah-blah about living in polite society.
beemerphile
Member
If you find yourself in a "fair fight" you haven't planned very well.
csmkersh
Member
Sure there is. It's the one you just lost.KenW said:
sacp81170a
Member
This brings up a couple of my favorite "Clintisms" (Clint Smith):
"If you're ever in a fair fight, your tactics suck."
"If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'."
Watch the hands, the hands hold the things that can hurt you.
The Tourist
member
beemerphile said:
That was the point of my comment. If you're going to get hit, the violence comes at you faster than you can believe.
We had a thread here on paranoia--which I think is just condition yellow working at a higher speed. I also watch people's hands and demeanor. Little things, like looking you over far too many times. Or people trying to close distance no matter how you move.
As I've stated, Wisconsin has no CCW provision.
However, in many cases I feel a good knife can aid me in safety and security.
The crux of my debate is that there are more guys out there like me than you might think. I discuss these very topics with my clients.
Other than autos and assited opening folders, many folks, myself included, use devices like Emerson's "Wave" feature, and we know how to use it.
I believe this is also part of condition yellow, that is, preparation for condition orange. I believe any defense I must do also has to match some level of speed. (Go to the Emerson home page and watch the Wave videos.)
Tactics like this can be used by the both the good and the bad. The very presence of you CCW license is no credible defense unless it's taped to a cardio plate of your body armor.
Within contact distances (I really don't want to run 21 feet in Harley boots), I'd rather have very nice knife rather than your slow reflexes.
sacp81170a
Member
That's exactly the point that makes knives so dangerous. I've been stabbed once and I didn't even know the knife was there until it was too late. Fortunately for me, I was already automatically blocking the attacking arm in a downward motion so the point of the knife went 2-3" deep in my thigh. Didn't hurt much right away and I realized there was a knife involved after I clobbered the guy over the head with an expensive 35mm camera (makes a good mace, but not much good for taking pictures afterward). My buddies shoved me into the car and ran me to the base hospital. The worst part was the doc probing the wound with his fingers to assess the damage before he sewed me up. The memory still makes my toenails curl.
A good knife fighter will never show his knife until he's close enough to use it. Forget 21 feet, let alone 21 inches. Your first indication that a knife was involved may be when you feel the blood running down your skin or your guts oozing out. No, I'll keep my distance and watch your hands, thank you very much.
Thanks for all the responses, I am in an uncertain period right now, not sure where I'll be after summer. I am most concerned as far as she goes with trying to keep things smooth, things are ok right now, that blow-up was a pretty isolated incident. I thiink that I need to allow the breakup to be on her terms, ie unless she decides that it's time for us to split up, she very well may get crazy on me, and use our no due process domestic disturbance system to fabricate claims she knows will ruin me. Unfortunately when you have a system that can be maliciously used to wreck someone's life on the basis of the accuser's "feeling" "threatened" these things can happen. I guess that's what we get for grasping at easy "fixes" and "solutions" to very real problems with domestic abuse.
I have read every response on this post and I greatly appreciate the members of this board for helping shine some light and outwards understanding on my situation, I feel much better prepared for any more episodes.
NG VI
I have read every response on this post and I greatly appreciate the members of this board for helping shine some light and outwards understanding on my situation, I feel much better prepared for any more episodes.
NG VI
The Tourist
member
Biker said:
I agree. And I'll openly state for the record that I intend to cheat. And I don't mean that 1-2-3 sucker punch kind of cheating, but I mean the Kurt Russell "cans in the air" style.
My intention with cutting is identical to my love for french fries--I never want to stop with just one. After diverting my attacker's attention with something shiny, I intend to latch on tight and slice whatever patch of skin he presents--over and over. Seeing a chance for an artery would be gravy.
Now, I wrote that paragraph with a wry smile to inject a little humor into this admittedly coarse topic. But my feelings about the overall issue remain.
A knife did this:
http://www.snopes.com/photos/gruesome/kunsan.asp
sacp81170a
Member
There ya go, proof positive that shooting someone with a knife is not escalating.
(The questioning should go something like this afterward: "Sacp, why did you shoot him 15 times?" "Well, Your Honor, he fell down before I could change magazines.")
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