Elderly retired teacher arrested for Queen Anne flintrock

[ExMachina]

According to the press, this happened back in November 2014. The man in question was not the driver of the vehicle but a passenger, and the driver was in possession of some amount of heroine. So while I won't defend NJ gun laws, the fellow in question certainly put himself in a bad spot by keeping the company that he kept.

 

[wojownik]

^^^ Those would be disturbing facts in the case, if indeed the truth.

Interesting that the Sheriff has been more circumspect with the U.S. press (only professing that "there is more to the story") but blabs out all sorts of details about a pending case to a U.K. tabloid (the Daily Mail).

 

[Drakos]

"The colonists of New Jersey would NEVER have put up with this garbage in the 1750s"


Actually, they likely would have. New Jersey was a center of loyalist and tory sentiment, and was governed by the very pro-British son of Ben Franklin, from whom he was estranged. New Jersey had many battles fought on its soil in the war due to its position between British held New York and our Continental Capital of Philadelphia, but as for actual contributions to the war effort actually added very little to the rebels. It was never a place of strong patriotism. The New Jersey Militia was never known for it's efficiency or discipline.


Sad to say, but true.


"And I’m thinking, ‘What? Ballistics on a flintlock?'"

I bet the number of recent murders with a .58 caliber unrifled round ball are pretty small....


Willie

.

Not only was New Jersey a Tory enclave during the revolution, I seem to remember that New Jersey provided the bulk of the militia used to suppress the Whiskey Rebellion, 20 years later, because it was thought that Pennsylvania and Maryland militias could not provide enough "loyal" soldiers to handle the job.

 

[Old Fuff]

According to the press, this happened back in November 2014. The man in question was not the driver of the vehicle but a passenger, and the driver was in possession of some amount of heroine. So while I won't defend NJ gun laws, the fellow in question certainly put himself in a bad spot by keeping the company that he kept.

I wouldn't say so, unless it could be proven that the owner of the antique pistol knew they're were drugs in the car (which wasn't his) or at least had prior knowledge that the car owner/driver was a drug user.

Lets say we are in New Jersey on a Gray Hound bus. For whatever reason the police search the contents of baggage compartment and find illegal drugs. Are all the passengers liable for the discovery, and as a result should be subject to questionable or trumped-up charges?

 

[Carl696]

I my self lived in NJ for most of my life (56 yrs.) I was a LEO there for some time. I truly got discussed with the state when they first banned several firearms. AR-15 AR 180 MAC 10,9,11 etc. there was a very long list. Even some pistols that were bought with a pistol permit were banned. There were three choices, 1.deactivate it. 2, donate it to a museum. 3, sell it. If you were in possession after the law went into effect you could be charged with a felony. Faced with that choice I sold off most of them but moved some to my friends house in PA. A few years later the state allowed the sale of AR-15's with out the nasty things that the libs go out of their mind over. (Bayonet lug, flash hider folding stock, unpinned flash hider and threaded bbl). But even then some types ( FAL AK G3 etc )were not allowed to be sold even with out the nasty items!
Recently the state made it a felony to posses an unregistered bb gun.
When I had the chance to move to WV friends asked me why?
My reply was:
1, I can carry concealed
2, I can own a full auto firearm.
3, I can own a silencer.
4, My property taxes are 1/10 of NJ
When we were about to start looking for our new home my wife asked me what I wanted.
I told her, I want to be able to open the back door and shoot.
My new home sits on thirty five acres, The nearest neighbor is 1/2 mile away,the nearest neighbor I can see is seven miles away. I can open my garage door and have a 100 yard range.
Life is good.
Good by NJ

 

[mooosie]

I know it is hard to pull up roots , leave family and friends, but faced with that kind of crap I would be out of there.

 

[Tallbald]

Carl696 I'm tickled for you. I live in the suburbs here in South Central Kentucky, in a town of 65,000. Though Miss Penny and I are on 1/2 an acre, we do have a pellet gun gallery in our back yard, and have yet to have anyone whine should we need to function fire a new gun into the ground in our back yard. We are still waiting on an opening to a local outdoor gun range. I take it that you're not kidding about registering BB guns in new Jersey. Holy Moley. Don.

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

Apparently, from my reading of a NJ defense attorney's website bb guns and airsoft guns are considered illegal unless permitted. WOW!!!

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

Not to highjack the thread, but then again I started it. Texas is not the bastion of gun rights despite all the stories and movies. It is one of a handful of states that bans open carry of hand guns, licensed or not, off your own property. It has been that way since 1869, following the ACW and during Reconstruction. Only in the 1990s did liscened concealed carry come about. Prior to that folks that conceled carry were consideres thugs and nere-do-wells, gamblers, etc. Only in the last few years was carrying a hand gun in your car considered legal.
The Texas Legislature has two different open carry bills up this session: Constitutional Carry and Licensend Open Carry for those with a CCL.
Don't get me started on the wacky Texas knife laws.

 

[Carl696]

The most insane thing about this is a person could be convicted of a felony, and never be allowed to own a firearm or vote, because of a bb gun.
I remember my father going to NY state to buy me a Daisy pump bb gun for my eleventh birthday (1965) because at that time bb guns were not allowed to be sold at all in NJ.
Years later the requirement was:
If you want to purchase a bb gun in NJ if it’s a rifle you need a firearms ID card same as to buy a real rifle.
If you want to buy a bb pistol you need a pistol permit just like a real pistol.

If you want to make a conservative mad tell him a lie.
If you want to make a liberal mad tell him the truth.

 

[Pete D.]

"Consented to a search?" Nah. Why would anyone transporting any firearm consent to a search unless they had no choice

 

[MAKster]

"Van Gilder allegedly admitted that the reason they were in the area was to purchase drugs, according to Austino."

"A search allegedly found used heroin bags in the vehicle, according to the sheriff."

http://www.nj.com/cumberland/index...._activity_in_drug_area_led_to_antique_gu.html

 

[Speedo66]

The NJ police have always been a bit "ambitious". Their troopers have a long history of racial profiling on the NY Turnpike. Plenty of cases and media coverage about that.

Many members of the NYPD live in suburban counties just outside NYC on the other side of the Hudson. Before LEOSA, they crossed the George Washington Bridge and passed the short distance through Jersey back into NY at their own peril. Jersey police were notorious for arresting NYPD officers during a traffic stop, after the NYPD officers identified themselves. The Jersey police would act friendly and casually ask if the officer was carrying, then arrest them if they admitted it.

Re: the case being mentioned, I can't understand how a pension previously awarded can be taken for events post the award which have no bearing on his previous work.

 

[steve4102]

Maybe this will wake up those in NJ that voting does come with consequences.

Vote for the devil, expect to get burned.

 

[BSA1]

Look at all this money and effort wasted because of New Jersey politicians. Putting a school teacher in jail and ruining his life because he owned a flintlock. Stupid beyond belief.

At first my response was this;

Actually it is pretty smart. The Liberal agenda is to get all citizens not to own firearms. By prosecuting, bankrupting and sending a citizen that has followed most of the laws all of his life they are sending a powerful message of fear to his neighbors hoping they will get rid of their guns to avoid getting into the same trouble.

Until I read this;

The car stop that led to a 72-year-old former teacher to being charged with possession of a 300-year-old pistol was conducted because his vehicle was allegedly "acting suspiciously in a known drug area," according to Cumberland County Sheriff Robert Austino.

The sheriff said Gordon Van Gilder was a passenger in his vehicle, which was pulled over on Nov. 19, on 2nd Street. Van Gilder allegedly admitted that the reason they were in the area was to purchase drugs, according to Austino.

"This is not just a case of the police picking on an elderly gun collector," he said.

When stopped, Austino said Van Gilder immediately told officers about the antique flintlock pistol in the glove compartment. The firearm was not loaded and was in what Austino called an envelope when Van Gilder turned it over to the officers.

A search allegedly found used heroin bags in the vehicle, according to the sheriff. The driver of the vehicle -- identified as Adam Puttergill, 21, of Maurice River Township -- was allegedly found in possession of drugs and was charged with possession of a controlled dangerous substance, according to Austino.

What the heck was a 72 year old man doing riding with a junkie for the express purpose of buying a illegal drug? With a handgun no less?

True the gun is a antique and may not even be functional but drug dealers are known not to play nice.

If the Police version is true (and I have no reason not to believe it) then I agree with the Sheriff's comment "This is not just a case of the police picking on an elderly gun collector."

Maybe Van Gilder has diminished capacity such as Alzheimer's in which case he may have a defense.

Let's pick our battles carefully and get all the facts before starting threads ranting about a police arresting gun owners who happen to have a gun in their vehicle.

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

Verdad o no verdad. Quien sabe?

 

[ExMachina]

As I posted previously, this event happened nearly 4 months ago and a quick google search shows that the arrest made few headlines at the time. The reason it's making the rounds of the news outlets now is that the NRA launched a media campaign last week related to it's legal defense of the man in question. Obviously the NRA is hoping to highlight the absurdity of NJ's law, and I imagine finding someone who was arrested and charged for simply being in possession of a flintlock pistol is probalby every NRA lawyer's dream. Unfortunately, the extenuating circumstances regarding the heroine and the drug buying activity will dilute the outrage many of us might have otherwise have felt.

 

[Red Wind]

Verdad o no verdad. Quien sabe?

Lie or not a lie. Who Knows?

 

[Officers'Wife]

"Consented to a search?" Nah. Why would anyone transporting any firearm consent to a search unless they had no choice

Why would someone in possession of narcotics consent to a search. This is starting to reek of "reasonable deception."

 

[Praxidike]

Personally, I do not see what the issue is. Us getting upset over NJ laws is no different than New Yorkers and Californians getting pissed off and wanting to change the laws in other gun friendly states that they do not live in. The voters indirectly voted for strict gun control, so let them have it.

 

[Speedo66]

I wouldn't say so, unless it could be proven that the owner of the antique pistol knew they're were drugs in the car (which wasn't his) or at least had prior knowledge that the car owner/driver was a drug user.

Lets say we are in New Jersey on a Gray Hound bus. For whatever reason the police search the contents of baggage compartment and find illegal drugs. Are all the passengers liable for the discovery, and as a result should be subject to questionable or trumped-up charges?

In some states, if drugs, weapons, or other contraband are found in a private vehicle, it is prima facie evidence that all occupants had knowledge of it. Prima facie meaning at first glance, true unless disproved.

Not so on a common carrier, the bus you refer to.

 

[oneounceload]

The success or lack-there-of, of NJ's strict gun laws can be summed up in one word... Camden

And Newark and The Oranges as well; and we see how much good it has done.

 

[Officers'Wife]

True, but he hasn't been charged with the possession of drugs only the antique. Were the empty drug packages found in the car or the driver's possession? I have the feeling some police chief is looking at the arrest report and thinking this would be an NRA dream case so we had best release the drug angle to smear the guy.

Now, consider this. I know a number of ancients that have some less than savory characters drive them in their vehicles where they need to go simply because they don't have anybody else that can or will do it for them. Even though our local counsel of aging provides taxi service free of charge they aren't willing to give up that illusion of independence. I'm sure on occasion there is the "while we are in the car..." messages sent.

 

[Michael4yah]

2nd amendment

NJ isn't the same as NY. It seems the people there should be able to overcome this liberal crap. Not that there aren't lots of liberals in NJ just that there seem to be a lot more who are pragmatists.
The constitution says we have a right to own guns and we have the right to carry them. Bear means carry. What is so difficult to understand about that? Now we need another amendment to safeguard our ammunition? How about firing pins? Whats next? We need to force the government to accept a 20 yr moratorium on all gun and ammo laws.

 

[orionengnr]

Re: the case being mentioned, I can't understand how a pension previously awarded can be taken for events post the award which have no bearing on his previous work.

Yep, this part is truly disturbing, and if upheld, may set a terrible precedent.