Email from Finland

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George Hill

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Hi and greetings from Finland.

I'm not sure if I actually accomplish anything by writing, opinions are much like ???????s since everybody's got one. However you invite people sharing opinions differing from your own so here I go...

First of all I'm a gun owner myself. I do not believe that total banning of firearms would reduce crime since gun crime is committed with illegal weapons. Cosmetic legislation, such as the assault gun ban in US makes us no safer. Does absence of grenade launcher make a rifle any less deadlier? I don't think so. How about bayonet mount? For all my research, I have yet to find a criminal case where a person was bayoneted to death.

In my home country however, gun ownership is not a guaranteed right, nor do I believe it should be. There are a lot of guns here; actually we have more registered firearms per capita than US. Mostly they are for hunting, competition shooting or like mine, for reservists to keep up on their weapon skills. Still you need a sound reason to acquire a gun and be a citizen in good standing to own one.

Are fit to own a firearm? Not everybody is and somebody has to make that decision; it would be great if we could rely on individuals to make the right choise. In reality the society we live in must have their say since it affects them as much as us. Sometimes those around us might say: “Sorry, we do not trust you with a firearm.â€

So what constitutes a society? In democracy, it’s the people or their elected representatives who must set guidelines for this, much as for everything else. We must remember the difference in scales; Finland has about the same amount of population than New York, maybe guns should be a state instead of federal issue? Not that I have any solutions.

In the end guns are poor guarantee of liberty and life. When Gestapo comes, it will take you with or without your guns. “From my cold dead fingers†is propably an acceptable proposal for them. Organization and training work better, guns can be aquired.

Which brings me to the conclusion of my modest rant.

Best Regards

JH

I don't think he has ever heard of "Molon Labe".

I will let the council here respond to him. Since I have had other emails from Finland with a different take, I don't consider this cat to be representative of that population. Give him your best reasoned arguements... and be nice... he is going to read it.
 
Is democratic rule more valuable than your human rights?

What if 51% of the voters decided to abolish all human rights and create a police state?

These days folks do not believe in inalienable rights. They believe in rule of majority and the laws created by the majority no matter how corrupt and lopsided they may be.

The Bill of rights cannot and should not be legislated away, weakened by bench decisions and destroyed by bureacrats ruling us through regulations
backed by force.

The opinion of our friend JH is one that many Americans have come to accept because our schools, media and parents have come to rely on the government to take care of needs, protect us from harm, and decide what is in our best interest.

What many have forgotten is that life is self regulating if left to its own devices. Citizens who take responsibility for their own safety, and survival are better off.

Telling people what they can or cannot own does not make us safer it just makes some people feel better.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong . . .

When Gestapo comes, it will take you with or without your guns.

Finnish hunters, armed only with guns and pressed into service as sharpshooters, gave the Red Army a hell of a time during the Winter War. They fought bravely against tremendous odds, and armed with little more than domestic versions of the Mosin Nagant.
 
No matter how we read past all the commas in the second amendment, we've evolved (or devolved) into JH's description of Finland's environment.

We don't let just anybody have guns. Felons and other classes of lawbreaker are usually excluded. So are the mentally incompetent, however we sort all that out. And people with restraining orders may not be allowed to have guns.

As far as "from my cold, dead hands" being acceptable to the Gestapo, it seems the same attitude was acceptable at Ruby Ridge and Waco.

Regards.
 
my response to part of his statement:

With great respect, sir, you are a touch misguided about your own human right of self preservation. “Molon Labeâ€, my dear Sir, isn’t an idle threat or a snappy phrase… it is a promise. Should a platoon of Gestapo storm troopers come for me – they might get me. But I am going to take a lot of them down with me. If everyone was willing to actually put up a fight, and fight like tigers… the Gestapo would run out of men before they cleared one block. Look at the Gestapo’s record for taking over the Jewish districts in German cities… look at the record for the same people trying to take over Stalingrad. Put up a fight!
 
First of all I'm a gun owner myself.

Great! That's good to hear. You're absolutely right, crime involving guns is almost never involving a legally purchased firearm -- they're either stolen or bought on the black market.

maybe guns should be a state instead of federal issue?

That's a step in the right direction, I guess. Why not make guns a personal issue? If I want to own a gun but my neighbor doesn't, that should be fine, but it is not his business what I own or vice versa.

In the end guns are poor guarantee of liberty and life.

You're right, they are a poor guarantee of anything. However they are far better than anything else out there, which is why our founding fathers were certain to enumerate a guaranteed right into the U.S. Constitution.

When Gestapo comes, it will take you with or without your guns. “From my cold dead fingers†is propably an acceptable proposal for them.

You have a far better chance against the "Gestapo" with a decent firearm and the skills and willingness to use it than following quietly. Going ANYWHERE with Gestapo is not going to end up well, and therefore any level of resistance is both prudent and acceptable.

I too find "From my cold dead fingers" an acceptable proposal. I'd rather be dead than cooperating with scum, and I'd like to make perfectly clear my principles. However, I'm not automatically "a lost cause" simply because they are Gestapo or that they have superior numbers.

Have you ever heard the story of the Alamo? The Alamo was a mission building-turned-fort where the most memorable battle for Texas' independence from Mexico was fought. The story is that Travis drew a line in the sand. Everyone willing to die for their cause crossed the line -- only one man didn't cross. About 250 men fought Mexican army regulars, killing about 600 Mexicans. They held out at the Alamo for 13 days before their defenses fell and all of them were killed.

The reason that that story is important to many Americans is that it is exemplary of the historic tendency for Americans to give their lives for their principles. That tendency has been acted out many times in our history, and it is something that most of us hold dear.

That is why we use the Greek war cry, "Molon Labe," when it comes to our Second Amendment rights. At the battle of Thermopylae, 300 greek warriors were told by Xerxes to lay down their weapons and they wouldn't be hurt. "Molon Labe," was their reply, which is basically saying, "Come and get them." 300 Greeks then held off their attackers, killing many (numbers vary from 125,000 to 600,000) before they fell in battle. They bought precious time for their city to organize a defense.

Yes, arms may not guarantee life or Liberty, but what else can enable a man to take on five men his size? The old western saying still rings true -- God made man, Colt made them equal. Numbers can be overcome.

Wes
 
Well, we each have our own outlooks and what we promise ourselves we will do it different cicrumstances and I can't hold anyone's outlook or promises against them. I also think different countries are in different situations. I think that as far as gun ownership goes, sheer numbers rather than percentages can make the difference.

I have a good friend, or at least a former good friend from Finland and if his experience is indicative, most or at least many gun owners over there see gun ownership as a means to hunt and not much more. But other laws are different as well. If you kill someone, regardless of circumstance, you are pretty much going to go to jail. If someone is in your house with a gun or an axe telling you he is going to kill you and then rape and kill your wife and you manage to kill him first, you will spend a few years in jail regardless of what you or others can prove. You took a life and you must pay your debt for that action. That changes things. In Texas, if you did the same thing in the same circumstances and you had three witnessess, you might have your gun taken away for at least some period of time, but you'd probably never even see the inside of a jail cell.

At the same time, I think there are more gun owners in Texas that there are people in Finland. Who is going to resist to a forced disarming more: gun-owning hunting residents in Finland or all the gun owners in Texas? ;) And in Germany in the late 30s, if the same percentage of Germans owner guns as Americans that own guns, I have zero doubt that the Gestapo still would have disarmed Germany... just with more Germans dead on both sides. Now the persecution of a people, say Jews and Gypsys in Germany, sure... the government would have had a much tougher battle if every Jew was armed but I think in general, in the US, when 'we' talk of disarming the population, we refer to ever gun owner and I don't think it will be a very easy battle for the government to disarm America.
 
First, a shout out to all my fellow Hoosiers!

Second, I think the entire issues is this: you do not have a right unless you ahve some recourse to prevent it form being taken away. The Second Amendment allows for teh ultimate freedom of individuals, hence, the ultimate freedom of society. Even guns do not do it alone, because weak-willed or weak-minded people can never provide for their own security.

That said, I am aware of the Finns' use of overwhelming skill to keep the Russians at bay. None other than Jeff Cooper sites them as a superior example of armed resistance.

If you don't believe in the power of an armed populace, I encourage you to visit 18 Mila street in Warsaw. You will see a monument to the Jewish Ghetto Fighters who resisted the SS liquidation of the Warsaw Jews. Most all of them died in the process but not without exacting a price.
 
Sometimes those around us might say: “Sorry, we do not trust you with a firearm.â€
Best said as you are reloading your firearm and waiting for the police evidence collectors to come pick up the gun of a former irresponsible owner.

As far as the Gestapo? Pretty soon their job fair is going to be a real drab event if their house calls are poorly recieved.
 
"...guns can be aquired."

We know. ;)

Why wait until you need one? Do you buy a spare tire for your car after you have a flat?

Love my Finnfire, too.

John
 
Hey, it's FINland, not ENGland!

cratz2,

If someone is in your house with a gun or an axe telling you he is going to kill you and then rape and kill your wife and you manage to kill him first, you will spend a few years in jail regardless of what you or others can prove.

Es poopo del toro.

In Finland the law regarding self-defence is older than the country itself (1889). I've taught this stuff... and it never ceases to amaze me how ignorant 90% of the subjects of this law are about it. They don't go through this at school, which is another thing I try to wake folks up about.

Let me quote:

Section 6 If someone has committed an act to protect himself/herself or another or his/her or another’s property against an ongoing or imminent unlawful attack, and this act, though otherwise punishable, was necessary for the repelling of the
attack, he/she shall not be sentenced to a punishment for such self-defence.
Section 7
Self-defence is also justified when someone forces his/her way unlawfully into
the room, house, estate or vessel of another, or when someone caught in the act
resists another who is trying to take back his/her own property.
Section 8 (621/1967)
(1) Paragraph has been repealed.
(2) When a person being apprehended, arrested or detained attempts to avoid
capture by resisting or escaping, or when a prisoner or another person
apprehended, arrested or detained attempts to escape or resists the prison
guard or other person who is assigned to prevent escape or keep him in order,
the use of forcible measures is also allowed in order to capture him/her, to
prevent the escape, or to keep order, when these measures can be justified in
view of the circumstances. The same applies when the resisting person is
someone other than the aforesaid person.
(3) When someone has the right under paragraph (1) or (2) to use forcible measures,
those assisting in the performance of the official duty also have this right.
(4) Also a person who has apprehended another person by virtue of chapter 1,
section 1 of the Coercive Measures Act and meets with resistance has the right,
as referred to above, to use forcible measures. (496/1995)

Source: Translation of the Finnish Penal Code .

We work on quite the same prerequisites for self-defence or use of force as can be found in e.g. teaching material for U.S. LE. You need to establish, that the following conditions co-existed in the situation when force was used:

- the aggressor's ability and opportunity to do real harm plus

- immediate danger to the entity being defended and a preclusion of options other than use of force.

In addition, you need to balance the force applied and the entity you defend: "when these measures can be justified in view of the circumstances" is a phrase often repeated in the law, wherever use of force is discussed.

This means that one should be able to sensibly de-escalate use of defensive force as the aggressor's actions allow. Now this is an ideal and it's well understood that a disparity of force or a tactical safety marginal must be allowed both in the amount or method and timing of force application.

The familiar principle of using force with the sole intent to stop the imminent unlawful attack should be clearly visible in this. If the by-product is that the aggressor should perish, well, oops. And if it can't be established that all the four prerequisites for self-defence were still present in the situation, well, oooops for me.

The logic in sentencing has a notion of what your quite normally misinformed friend implies. If I wind up in your example situation, I'll be deemed guilty of manslaughter even though the punishment sentenced will be zero. This difference in procedure exists, but that shoud make no difference in the end result.

When reading about this, bear in mind that our judicial system has no case law to depend on as Common Law systems have. What the law says, rules. The judges aren't allowed to legislate.
 
For the original e-mailer:

Are fit to own a firearm? Not everybody is and somebody has to make that decision; it would be great if we could rely on individuals to make the right choise. In reality the society we live in must have their say since it affects them as much as us. Sometimes those around us might say: “Sorry, we do not trust you with a firearm.â€

Whom would you trust to make that decision for you? Erkki Tuomioja? Where would you be with your reservist rifle if the last try to occupate us had succeeded? In Chechnya serving the big bear. Just
how does what affect the society around a gun owner as much as him/herself? What are you projecting?

You really, really should hang around here for a while. Being an active reservist is such a good start. Register here and PM me: it's just me and a couple of Norwegians keeping this side of the Gulf stream visible here.

For Kaylee, I resent that. You don't know jack about our freedom.
 
stiletto,

I think the entire issues is this: you do not have a right unless you ahve some recourse to prevent it form being taken away. The Second Amendment allows for teh ultimate freedom of individuals, hence, the ultimate freedom of society.

...

If you don't believe in the power of an armed populace, I encourage you to visit 18 Mila street in Warsaw.

I quite agree about the nature of a right. As said, we don't inherently have your 2A right. I experience my recourse for preventing the practical end result of a different logic, namely my gun ownership, from being taken away, to be very good despite that.

Let me explain a little: ours is a society where I (or anyone) can meet with my parliamentary representative by simply making an appointment. This as a depicting detail that should tell tomes about the approximity of political discussion and the actual people affected here.

The principal of having a constitutional right obviously would be even better, but the current state of affairs is a matter of fact we face in this phase of our respective histories.

I'm quite sure that in the case that CCW would really become statistically sensible for everybody here, suitable legislation would be passed. Even the current legislation can be loopholed to allow CCW, but escaping any sanctions would require it to be a "gray" period of time with, say, the outlook of things already worsening. In other words, one would need to sense the "need" part oneself to bother.

I also agree with JohnBT about having the spare in the trunk, but I can only repeat the current state of affairs as a result of our specific past thingy. I think that the original writer's brief mentioning of organization and training refers to our militia style army of conscription-trained reservists, not individual solutions during peace-time.

Which brings me to the latter point of the stiletto quote: however misled the original writer is, he most certainly believes in an armed populace. And so do I. The FDF still train over 80% of every cohort of males. Heck, the way things look in our dearly beloved neighbor Sweden, we'll be taking care of more and more of their defence as well... like we always did when the bearpoopy hit the propeller :D . Sorry about the insider joke. The original e-mailer might get it, though.
 
There are a lot of guns here; actually we have more registered firearms per capita than US.

More registered firearms per capita does not necessarily mean more firearms per capita. :evil:

In the end guns are poor guarantee of liberty and life. When Gestapo comes, it will take you with or without your guns. “From my cold dead fingers†is propably an acceptable proposal for them. Organization and training work better, guns can be aquired.

From my cold dead hands might be an acceptable proposal for the Gestapo, at least the policy makers, but its probably not an acceptable proposal for the brown shirts sent in to do the dirty job. And if it does get dirty, how many of these brown shirts would be required to get it from one gun owner? This is where your analysis breaks down. Lets say it takes 2 brownshirts to take one gun owner's guns, and with that you have a 10% chance of 1 of the brownshirt dying, and the gun owner dying as well. What is the ratio of gun owners to brownshirts do you need in order for this confiscation program to be successful? :neener:
 
JH Welcome to THR.

In my home country however, gun ownership is not a guaranteed right, nor do I believe it should be. There are a lot of guns here; actually we have more registered firearms per capita than US. Mostly they are for hunting, competition shooting or like mine, for reservists to keep up on their weapon skills. Still you need a sound reason to acquire a gun and be a citizen in good standing to own one.

As noted above, it is possible to lose your right to gun ownership here in the United States of American. However, you do not "need a sound reason to acquire a gun." By that, I mean only that an individual needs only explain to him/herself why he/she wants to acquire a gun. The individual doesn't need to explain why to a government agency. To me, this is a good thing.

Are fit to own a firearm? Not everybody is and somebody has to make that decision; it would be great if we could rely on individuals to make the right choise. In reality the society we live in must have their say since it affects them as much as us. Sometimes those around us might say: “Sorry, we do not trust you with a firearm.â€

Admittedly, the system here is not perfect, but it follows the logic that an individual has to demonstrate that they should not be trusted with a firearm. Off the top of my head, I remember being asked if I was a convicted felon, fugitive from justice, "mentally incompetent", dishonorably discharged from the Armed Forces, or had been put on a restraining order (basically provents a man from bothering a specific woman). If I had done any of those things, I would not be allowed a firearm. I can not legally be denied purchasing a firearm simply because someone doesn't like the way I look, nor because someone thinks I might do such a thing in the future. Obviously, this leaves open the possibility that someone who has a clean record could decide to purchase a firearm with the intent to commit crimes, and that someone dishonorably discharged from the Armed Forces no longer is allowed a firearm for self-defence. However, I think this system is much better than any alternatives I have heard of. The problem with "Sorry, we do not trust you with a firearm." is "How is that decision made? Because my parents came from China? Because someone else who looks like me commited a crime? Because I can speak a little French :neener: ?" (Actually, my French is so bad now that I can't even remember how to make a sentence. . .:eek: ) The history of the United States is full of tremendous achievements but also of some very embarassing incidents and outrages. Many of us want more of the former and none of the latter. . .;) :D

BTW, what kinda guns do you have? :D Here is a picture of a VKT M39 I promise to take good care of. . .;)

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And in Germany in the late 30s, if the same percentage of Germans owner guns as Americans that own guns, I have zero doubt that the Gestapo still would have disarmed Germany... just with more Germans dead on both sides.

I don't think the Germans would have. I just finished _The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich_ by Willliam Shirer. The German opposed to the Nazis had their chance late 20s to 1933, the period in which Hitler could have been stopped by people power. They failed to stop him, and a lack of guns was not the reason as far as I can tell. They lacked the will, and they were too disorganized, disunited, and dispirited to stop Hitler.
 
Yes, Quisling of Norway. I felt that one word WAS a proper response. Think about it. The government appointed and supported, legally empowered, recognized internationally head of state was executed for treason. We can follow law or we can fight for freedom and rights. I guess I should have referred to Aristides "kidnapping". Vichy France? Do we support a wrong government idea or revolt and fight for freedom and rights? How do we fight? Who do we fight? Are fellow citizens our own enemies? There are three major powers in North America. The USA. Canada cum England. Mexico. The US has a history of benevolent protection. We don't own Cuba. Canada has a history of thinking for the SUBJECTS. Mexico has a history of despotism and cruel treatment of the populace. The US is a quick country by virtue of a constitution. The amendment can be thought of as LIFE SUPPORT. Canada has no such means of the peoples voice. The government says and the people must comply. Mexico can't even form a strong central government. I believe the US should invade and conquer Mexico. If the Mexicans want social security and jobs, fine. We can do that. Why we don't is simple. The constitution and the amendments limit the presidential authority, the congress must pass legislation to allow an invasion to continue once started and the SCOTUS will review the constitutional issues after such an invasion. No other nation has such a system of checks and balances. IF Germany had such a system in 1939, who knows?
 
Ok Josey, I get it now ;)

And the Mexican invasion idea somehow appeals to me too. After all, you are being assimilated the other way around, so why not pre-empt? ;)

The comparisons you made are good. The Canadian system is a lot closer to the Finnish one than the US. I just wonder, how come we don't feel this armless helplessness of subjects? Is it maybe just a size thing that we still feel empowered (sorry, but the word actually fits here) and sense an approximity to our political process? I do feel that we're starting to resent the centralizing development of the EU just because of that - and there I see a parallel between you mistrusting Washington and us mistrusting Brussels/Strassbourg.

If that development continues, we will need a stronger system of jacks and palances. With the Giscard-d'Estaing-roi-soleil -led joke of an EU constitution that will never happen... if anything like that were to come into existance, we will just be holding on to our guns by whichever loopholes we'll find, just as we've been doing with quite some success until now.
 
When Gestapo comes, it will take you with or without your guns. “From my cold dead fingers†is propably an acceptable proposal for them.

Maybe thats acceptable for the leadership, but its probably not acceptable to the guys doing the doorkicking; if a member of their team dies for every person arrested the arrests will soon grind to a halt.

Kharn
 
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