Email from Finland

[Tamara]

igor,

If that development continues, we will need a stronger system of jacks and palances.

Thanks for making my morning.

(I hope Diet Mountain Dew doesn't have any detrimental effects on the sinus passages. )

 

[igor]

Most welcome. I hope The Onion won't sue me for copyright infringement.

 

[moa]

Kharn, that is assuming that folks will be sitting around waiting for their enemy to kick in the door. I imagine there will those taking a much more proactive resistance.

 

[NonServiam]

Slightly off-topic, but I'm sure most of you like to have all your facts correct ...

Yes, Quisling of Norway. I felt that one word WAS a proper response. Think about it. The government appointed and supported, legally empowered, recognized internationally head of state was executed for treason.

Not quite. The head of state in Norway is the king. Not the prime minister (we have and had no president btw).
As to the "legally empowered", allow me to quote from http://www.norwaydirect.co.uk/discover/norway-history.asp on Quisling and the April 9th coup:

The Norwegian politician Vidkun Quisling attempted a coup the same day, but was met with such strong resistance from the people that the Germans deposed him within a week and installed a bureaucratic administration in lieu of a government. However, in 1942 this administration was replaced with an occupation government with the ineffective Quisling being named minister president by German commander Josef Terboven.

M67, if you're lurking, you're the Norwegian history buff here, care to add anything?

We like our guns here in Norway btw. I know the Finns do too!

Edited to add: Maybe the Wikipedia on Quisling is of interest to some?

 

[igor]

Takk for informasjonen... we like to have facts about our histories straight, don't we?

 

[Selfdfenz]

"Look at the Gestapo’s record for taking over the Jewish districts in German cities… look at the record for the same people trying to take over Stalingrad. Put up a fight!"


I wished I'd said that.


S-

 

[Mal H]

... we will need a stronger system of jacks and palances

I don't know if that was a typo or a translation error or (I hope) you meant it literally. At any rate, that was great! There is a whole lot of subtle meaning in that sentence.


[Added a few seconds later]
I should have read on before responding. I see you meant it. (Gotta love The Onion!)

 

[Werewolf]

Are fit to own a firearm? Not everybody is and somebody has to make that decision; it would be great if we could rely on individuals to make the right choise. In reality the society we live in must have their say since it affects them as much as us. Sometimes those around us might say: “Sorry, we do not trust you with a firearm.â€

So what constitutes a society? In democracy, it’s the people or their elected representatives who must set guidelines for this, much as for everything else. We must remember the difference in scales; Finland has about the same amount of population than New York, maybe guns should be a state instead of federal issue? Not that I have any solutions.

In the end guns are poor guarantee of liberty and life. When Gestapo comes, it will take you with or without your guns. “From my cold dead fingers†is propably an acceptable proposal for them. Organization and training work better, guns can be aquired.

The attitude expressed above is typically European and is an attitude developed over thousands of years of rule by monarchy. It is the attitude typical of one who thinks like a subject and not like a free man.

I would submit that a goodly portion of those Europeans who thought like free men left Europe some 100 to 300 years ago to come to America. What was left were subjects.

 

[igor]

Werewolf,

The attitude expressed above is typically European and is an attitude developed over thousands of years of rule by monarchy. It is the attitude typical of one who thinks like a subject and not like a free man.

I think you're assuming that acquired traits are inherited... some Russian "genetic engineers" tried to prove that in the 1950's and produced the black russian terrier breed trying... that's how I got a great dog, but still the assumption won't hold.

Plus that the "typically European" thingy is a pretty wiiiiiiiide brush. That's so... typically American .

About the subject attitude in the individual though, you're most correct. He is by no means an exception here :banghead: .

Mal H, remember seeing "Supreme Court Rules Supreme Court Rules" ?

 

[Werewolf]

I think you're assuming that acquired traits are inherited...

Puleeeeeeez! Only the uneducated believe such silliness....

Thinking like a subject vice a citizen is cultural. Cultures evolve in ways that assure their continued existence. Those in opposition to cultural values are imprisoned, killed, ostracized or banished to eliminate opposition to the culture. Those that are left are essentially slaves to the culture in which they live - it's how they were raised, it's who they are.

In the case of Europe there is well over 2000 years of cultural history where the people were ruled as subjects. It's only been in the last 200 years that they have been given the perception of freedom but that's all it is perception. European governments can take away what ever priviledges they've granted in less than a heartbeat if they so desire. They can do it because the cultural bent has taught the people there that it is OK to do, that the government is master and all rights and priviledges derive from the government and that the government is the power. That is why they see nothing wrong with the government controlling who has access to fire arms.

Go to any other web forum or even [gag] usenet where Europeans hang out and float any question regarding rights. You will find that the majority of Europeans equate rights with priviledge - you get 'em because the government gives 'em to you. Not because they are yours by right of birth and government exists to protect those rights. There are exceptions but they are few and far between and they are often considered anarchists by other Europeans.

 

[Stand_Watie]

I'll chip in a correction to your friends geography, George...

... Finland has about the same amount of population than New York, maybe guns should be a state instead of federal issue? Not that I have any solutions

Finland has a similar population to Minnesota - it has less than a third the population of New York. That particular error jumped out at me because anti-gunners consistently use extremely faulty comparison between the US and various countries in their "firearms cause high murder rates" arguments.

 

[AUadvisor]

More guns per capita? what does that mean? are you talking about registered guns? I don't buy it, do you realize how many guns are manufactured in the US per year, not to mention the imports. Granted some us manufactured guns are exported but the U.S has more guns than any other counry in the world. What are you talking about?

 

[igor]

WW,

my remark was a with the slight notion that your way of treating "European" as a single species is IMHO a bit overly generalizing... just as the stereotype of "American" tends to be. I'm guilty myself, but getting better. Obviously you have a valid point in the implications of cultural evolution.

But try to picture to yourself the similarities and differences between the political culture and the frame of daily life for average Joe Schmo in, say, Portugal and Sweden. Or... Belgium and Greece. Or... rural Alaska and L.A. There are more than nuances.

AUa, you might want to check per capita . That's why Finland keeps falsely coming up in the statistics discussions as Stand_Watie pithily put. And, BTW, it's "Finns".

 

[AUadvisor]

I understand what per capita means but thanks for the definition! But saying "FINN" has more guns per capita means nothing, you have a smaller population. Take the south for example, everyone I know has one firearm if not more, the north where laws are strict prevent citizens from owning weapons. So instead of compairing your country to new york why dont you compare it to say alabama, I would say you would be outnumbered. Plus, if your european country had to actually use those weapons wouldnt they just lay them down, and say "I come in peace", or just join the nazi regime to try and save their own asses while giving up a considerable amount of your countrys jews to be slautered.

 

[Stand_Watie]

AUa, you might want to check per capita . That's why Finland keeps falsely coming up in the statistics discussions as Stand_Watie pithily put. And, BTW, it's "Finns".

I had been under the impression that Finland was prettily heavily armed by european standards, but not by american. I think there are probably many different ways to slice the statistical pie to reflect differently, the most consistent figures I see are the % of households with firearms (and even those vary quite a bit)

I commonly see international comparisons having Finland at 25% (highest of any euro nation save Switzerland) and the US at 48% like the table here at guncite

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html

and this "small arms survey 2003" (take with a grain of salt, I think this is a gun grabber website) claims Finns to own 39 guns per 100 people. I believe the US figure is guestimated to exceed 100 guns per 100 people. I'd be willing to bet a couple bucks there are more "assault rifles" per capita in Finland though.

http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/Media/Scandinavia/Scandinavia Media Release English 2906.pdf

 

[igor]

AUadvisor,

you have one valid point there. It would indeed be more fruitful to handle both the US and "Europe" on a state/nation basis in such comparisons. I didn't notice, though, that we were having a competition on who's got more guns or whose dad is stronger. The statistics were mentioned, IMO, since they are sometimes used in a distorted way by the antis. I'm not comparing anything here.
As to this:

Plus, if your european country had to actually use those weapons wouldnt they just lay them down, and say "I come in peace", or just join the nazi regime to try and save their own asses while giving up a considerable amount of your countrys jews to be slautered.

Sic.
What the are you trying to express here? Why this irrational, incoherent and next to unintelligible outburst of... I don't know what?

IM(NS)HO, you need to get your facts straight before passing such... judgment ... and maybe consider the need for such as well. You do realize that I'm not quoted in the beginning of this thread, or do you?

Stand_Watie, let me check some current numbers for our information. The main point I meant, that sometimes gets distorted, is the figures of Finnish suicide and criminal violence falsely connected to the above-average prevalence of firearms, though.

 

[Tamara]

AUadvisor,

I thought they taught manners better down in Alabama.

Plus, if your european country had to actually use those weapons wouldnt they just lay them down,

You really should quit while you're behind. The guy's from Finland. The fact that you don't know what that country did in '39-'40 suggests that you probably aren't an advisor in AU's history department.

 

[moa]

Was not Finland an quasi-ally of Nazi Germany? IIRC, I thought it was but it did not enter WWII in league with the Nazis, but did fight to remove the Soviets from Finnish territory.

 

[igor]

A good observation!

Yes, Finland was, kind of. President Risto Ryti took upon himself to enter a pact with Hitler so Finland could get the Nazis' help: materiel, ordnance and manpower: in the end of it the whole north-eastern front responsibility was given to the Germans. Mannerheim consistently refused to pursue Leningrad as was Hitler's wish so in the last moment a separate cease-fire agreement could be made with the Russians. President Ryti resigned and the pact was declared null and void with him gone. One could say he screwed the Nazis royally... he served a few years as a "war criminal", obviously.

The Soviets then ordered the Finns to forcibly drive the Germans out of the country. They retreated thru Lapland to Norway and the Finns reluctantly followed: as the Russians insisted on the Finnish army to make contact, the Germans scorched the land as they went. Old Lapps still torch scenery cards of their land in front of hapless German tourists and sell reindeer poop to them as aphrodisiacs...

After the war the Soviets occupied a base in our south coast and installed an observation commitee and their domesticated secret police. A long story very short, after a few years the Finns kicked the communists out of the cabinet, normalized the police and paid the war repairs the Soviets had demanded. To the last penny... In 1956 the "leased" base area was returned.

It seems that a dozen Jews were deported to Germany during the war, for some reason or another. A leftist journalist just wrote a book about it, making a big hoo-haa about the news... not to denigrate the tragedy of those cases, but the writer comfortably ignored the tens of thousands of Finns from the eastern areas the Soviets took... and promptly deported to Siberia .

Blah, enough bandwidth on this... thanks for the interest, anyone who reached this far .