Example of handguns not being "show stoppers".

[CDW4ME]

This thread is one more example to validate my preference for 45 acp or 10mm.
ASAP stopping potential, bigger / more powerful bullets = more potential.

 

[1911 guy]

I listened to an officer recount her incident of going at it with a determined perp who had just shot and killed her partner. She shot him twice in the torso, at contact distance while grappling on the floor, with a .357 revolver. He reportedly grunted, said "That was a good one" and continued to fight until she was able to shoot him in the face. Handguns are the compromise we accept because society frowns upon carrying large caliber rifles in public. Bigger is always better when the balloon goes up..

 

[RETG]

Question is not how many survived a handgun round wound or how many shots it took to stop the thread. The question is how many threats have been stopped with calibers from 9mm to 45. And that number if very high. I remember reading one time that there was an FBI stat that stated the .22 was responsible for killing the highest number of non-military or LEOs in the USA. As for across the world it was the 9mm. Old stats, do not have a link so don't ask, but it was something I read many years ago (about 8-10 if my old memory serves me).
But I asked a smart .45 owner one time if he would prefer to be shot with a .45 in the foot or a .22 in the head and he immediately said the .22 of course. Then he realized what he said.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I listened to an officer recount her incident of going at it with a determined perp who had just shot and killed her partner. She shot him twice in the torso, at contact distance while grappling on the floor, with a .357 revolver. He reportedly grunted, said "That was a good one" and continued to fight until she was able to shoot him in the face. Handguns are the compromise we accept because society frowns upon carrying large caliber rifles in public. Bigger is always better when the balloon goes up..

I think you may have misremembered a story as I doubt there are two such stories where one officer was killed, one of the officers was female, there was a fight over a .357, bad guy killed by shot to head, and the quote from the bad guy that it was a "good one." The story in question involves the first female officer killed in Louisiana, Linda Lawrence, who was a trainee, responding to a resident burglary with her training officer partner, Steve Chaney. This is a story used in a variety of self defense and law enforcement training courses to illustrate how well a determined attacker can withstand brutal damage, how mistakes get made, and the variety of decisions that have to be made during the course of a battle.
https://books.google.com/books?id=9...AQ6AEwCHoECAIQAQ#v=onepage&q=good one&f=false

This is a truly amazing story. If you are not familiar with it, it is a very good and very instructional read with a lot of lessons to be learned from it.

 

[1911 guy]

Double Naught, you may be right. It's been a while.

 

[theotherwaldo]

If firearms had the "stopping power" that the uninitiated claimed, then no one could fire them.

Any force that could devastate an 180 pound perpetrator would be equally devastating to a 2 pound pistol and a 15 pound forearm and hand that's holding the gun.

No, shooting is like real estate. Location, location, location.

 

[Jim NE]

You might remember psuedo science being used to sell cigarettes:
.

I remember those ads. My favorites were the ones where actual doctors recommended one brand over the other for health reasons. Kind of like saying, "Shooting yourself with a .380 is safer than with a .45 auto." That might be true, statistically, but still not very reassuring.

 

[GRIZ22]

You can find cases of bad guys taking multiple hits from 38s, 9s, 357s, 40s, 45, 00 buck, slugs, and everything else and fight on. You can also find cases of people dropping immediately out of the fight with a single hit from a 22.

I know of a case (saw the video) of a bad guy shot by an off duty LEO with a 9mm and the LEO's gun jammed so the LEO got in a wrestling match with the bad guy for about 30 seconds. The LEO got the gun away from the bad guy, the bad guy ran about 100 yds then dropped dead. He had been shot through the heart.

You often hear about shot placement is everything. It is but few places result in instant stopping the bad guy. Add to that the target most likely is bobbing and weaving which doesn't help your shot placement.

That's where shooting multiple shots comes in. Generally, if someone is hit enough times they will stop. I used to tell agents as a LEO firearms instructor to shoot until they stop. Whatever it takes 1, 3, 5, or 15 rds shoot until they stop. The idea is to make them stop. If the BG is behind cover but not using it properly shoot him in the elbow, foot, or whatever target he's giving you.

 

[theotherwaldo]

-There's also the FIBS factor - a person gets shot, thinks, "F***, I've Been Shot!", flops over in a panic. What happens then depends on the actual severity of the injury and the quickness of the follow-up action by the shooter or bystanders.
FIBS factor has little or no effect in cases where the injured person does not realize that they have been shot.

 

[GRIZ22]

-There's also the FIBS factor - a person gets shot, thinks, "F***, I've Been Shot!", flops over in a panic. What happens then depends on the actual severity of the injury and the quickness of the follow-up action by the shooter or bystanders.
FIBS factor has little or no effect in cases where the injured person does not realize that they have been shot.

This is true. There are cases where the person who has bee shot with a easily survivable wound dies of shock.

 

[Garandimal]

Carry the largest caliber pistol in the biggest frame you can carry comfortably and shoot well.

...and then use it to fight your way to your rifle of shotgun.

​

GR

 

[CDW4ME]

Carry the largest caliber pistol in the biggest frame you can carry comfortably and shoot well.

...and then use it to fight your way to your rifle of shotgun.

GR

I agree with carry largest caliber you can shoot well.
Technically if I am in store / restaurant and have to defend my life I'll likely either stop the threat right there (with pistol) or escape from it.
Escape threat, go to vehicle in parking lot to obtain rifle / shotgun and then return to engage is no longer self defense. (I aint talking defense of others)

In that video are there pics showing internal damage with some reference for size like a quarter or a ruler?
Entry holes are not indicative of internal damage.
For example: a hole in lungs made by 9mm HST with objective measurement, and another with 45 HST and objective measurement?
Or is it more anecdotal generalization with no comparison pics that include objective measurements for layperson review?
I'm guessing the later.

I shot a deer with 10mm XTP and documented damage bigger than bullet by placing a ruler in one pic showing a 1 1/4'' hole in entry shoulder and a quarter next to exit hole on heart (quarter is .95) hole is obviously bigger - the incorrect generalization that handgun bullets don't do damage other than what bullet physically touches mythbusted and I too pics to back it up; a XTP 10mm only expands to about .65

 

[Garandimal]

I agree with carry largest caliber you can shoot well.
Technically if I am in store / restaurant and have to defend my life I'll likely either stop the threat right there (with pistol) or escape from it.
Escape threat, go to vehicle in parking lot to obtain rifle / shotgun and then return to engage is no longer self defense. (I aint talking defense of others)

In that video are there pics showing internal damage with some reference for size like a quarter or a ruler?
Entry holes are not indicative of internal damage.
For example: a hole in lungs made by 9mm HST with objective measurement, and another with 45 HST and objective measurement?
Or is it more anecdotal generalization with no comparison pics that include objective measurements for layperson review?
I'm guessing the later.

I shot a deer with 10mm XTP and documented damage bigger than bullet by placing a ruler in one pic showing a 1 1/4'' hole in entry shoulder and a quarter next to exit hole on heart (quarter is .95) hole is obviously bigger - the incorrect generalization that handgun bullets don't do damage other than what bullet physically touches mythbusted and I too pics to back it up; a XTP 10mm only expands to about .65

Speculation in this case is folly.

This is a grad/post-grad level lecture on GSW's by a trauma anesthesiologist.

Watch - and then discuss.




GR

 

[CDW4ME]

Speculation in this case is folly.

This is a grad/post-grad level lecture on GSW's by a trauma anesthesiologist.

Watch - and then discuss.

GR

I watched that awhile back and do not recall seeing internal damage comparison pics with measures for reference.

Like these:
A 1 1/4'' hole in entry shoulder made by a 10mm XTP


A quarter is .95 that hole is longer or wider (whichever) than that.


Entry / exit holes are not indicative of internal damage:


It is not my opinion that a 10mm can do tissue damage beyond the diameter of the bullet, I documented it clearly.

 

[Jeb Stuart]

I saw that video posted above and it makes a lot of sense. And, I will agree with Paul Harrell and say that more rounds is not better to a certain point. I doubt that having to reload will happen in the vast majority of attacks. Each to his own beliefs, and each to his own model used for training.
Personally I will agree with Mr. Harrell and train hard at these statistics. However if you believe you need big bore guns, high round count, multiple magazines etc. That is fine as well. Just not convenient or practical or necessary for my own beliefs.And of course the training goal is NOT to be the AVERAGE shooter.

 

[shadepuppy]

Very interesting thread, I have read the ten year shooting study and most of this thread seems to agree with the studies findings....so do I. So I am wondering are we all eventually are going to be carrying tasers, I realize they have their limitations, not the least of which is....you only get one shot into winter clothing.....I guess no matter how much it's discussed.....it all comes back to location,location,location.

 

[Garandimal]

I watched that awhile back and do not recall seeing internal damage comparison pics with measures for reference....

Then you should watch it again.

It is explicit and emphatic.




GR

 

[CDW4ME]

In that video are there pics showing internal damage with some reference for size like a quarter or a ruler?
Entry holes are not indicative of internal damage.
For example: a hole in lungs made by 9mm HST with objective measurement, and another with 45 HST and objective measurement?

Speculation in this case is folly.

This is a grad/post-grad level lecture on GSW's by a trauma anesthesiologist.

Watch - and then discuss.

GR

I watched that awhile back and do not recall seeing internal damage comparison pics with measures for reference.

Then you should watch it again.

It is explicit and emphatic.

GR

I knew I was right.
There is not one spot in that video where a handgun wound has a ruler, dial caliper or other measurement documenting size, ex: 45 HST did this.
33 minutes I spent to to know I was right. Zero pics like I specified; nothing like what I posted documenting wound size for a specific handgun bullet.
It would be too simple to just say, you're right CDW4ME there are no comparison pics like that in the video.
10:35 the incorrect generalization that crush is the only wounding mechanism; my pics show otherwise, hole nearly 2x the size of expanded bullet.

 

[Garandimal]

I knew I was right.
There is not one spot in that video where a handgun wound has a ruler, dial caliper or other measurement documenting size, ex: 45 HST did this.
33 minutes I spent to to know I was right. Zero pics like I specified; nothing like what I posted documenting wound size for a specific handgun bullet.
It would be too simple to just say, you're right CDW4ME there are no comparison pics like that in the video.
10:35 the incorrect generalization that crush is the only wounding mechanism; my pics show otherwise, hole nearly 2x the size of expanded bullet.

- 6:7 gunshot wound victims survive.
- Almost all rifle gunshot wounds are fatal.

Trivia - does not change these facts.




GR

 

[GunnyUSMC]

I just love it when people that have never been in a gun fight talk about what they would do if they were ever in a gun fight.
It’s harder to hit your target when your target is trying to hit you. Combat accuracy and range accuracy are two different things.
Just keep these thing in mind.
#1 Be able to shoot and hit with what you carry.
#2 more rounds is always better.
#3 Quick and easy reloading is always a good thing.
#4 If ever in a fight, fight to win.
#5 You have an 80% chance of surviving if shot with a handgun, but so does the bad guy.

 

[Fiv3r]

Threads like this just reinforce that humans are fickle beasts when it comes to projecting what and how much t will take to stop them. Like others have mentioned, there are numerous attackers who were shot and were dead but didn't know it yet and kept attacking until they bled out. Others have gone into shock after being winged by a .22 and curled up and died. I remember an anecdote about a WWII pilot taking a direct hit to his cockpit from an AA gun, blowing off half his leg and hip and managing to fly the wounded bird back home with a wound the size of a bowling ball in him.

As fragile as we view life, organisms on this planet tend to be designed to take a fair amount of abuse before giving up the ghost. While I believe in going for CNS hits to quickly end a fight, I know that in all honesty my best hope for ending an attack quickly is hoping that the other guy doesn't want to get shot.

 

[Chuck R.]

There are plenty of real world first hand scenario's where the lights go out instantly, you only need to check The Tube to see for yourself.

Obviously it's not wise to rely solely on shot placement in a SD situation as there will be a host of variables going on. IMHO it's likewise not wise to rely on caliber alone either, within reason of course. I submit capacity is probably just behind shot placement in terms of importance.

What that means in a nut shell is I'd rather have 15rds of 9mm over 8rds of 45, and I'd rather have either of the aforementioned over 30rds of 22.

And that's apparently the same sort of conclusion this officer came to after being in a gunfight and using a .45:

At the core of his desperate firefight was a murderous attacker who simply would not go down, even though he was shot 14 times with .45-cal. ammunition — six of those hits in supposedly fatal locations.

Before the shooting, Gramins routinely carried 47 rounds of handgun ammo on his person, including two extra magazines for his Glock 21 and 10 rounds loaded in a backup gun attached to his vest, a 9 mm Glock 26.

Now unfailingly he goes to work carrying 145 handgun rounds, all 9 mm. These include three extra 17-round magazines for his primary sidearm (currently a Glock 17), plus two 33-round mags tucked in his vest, as well as the backup gun. Besides all that, he’s got 90 rounds for the AR-15 that now rides in a rack up front.

https://www.policeone.com/police-he...ne-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/