Experiences in Tactical Operations

[Rifleman173]

Many of us have had experiences in tactical operations either while in military combat operations or while working as police officers. Some of us have had experiences in both fields. This thread is for those of us who have "seen the elephant" to express things that might help newer, younger less experienced people increase their understanding of what happens in most tactical events. I'll start...

#1. The first thing that you need to do when you are involved in a high stress situation or tactical situation is keep your head and do a quick situational analysis of what is happening around you. Identify the nearest and most dangerous threats that you will need to eliminate or avoid. Notice I said avoid. There might be a time when avoiding a fight is the smarter move. Always keep that option in mind.

#2. Most gunfights, as I learned over in Viet Nam, do not always involve long range shooting distances. The majority of gunfights I participated in were well under 300 yards and many of them were down to a few feet because of the jungle and sudden turns. Long distance shooting events were pretty rare but they did occur. I was a sniper who got into one sniper versus sniper shooting event just after nightfall. I won and the other guy didn't but that shooting event was actually done at a distance of less than 250 yards! The other sniper had an old Mosin Nagant rifle that sounded like an old freight train moving around when he racked the bolt to reload. Many times, soldiers end up engaging "targets of opportunity." That's military lingo for we shoot what we stray across in the field.

#3. Police research data tells us that most police shootings involve officers engaging armed suspects at close range, often less than 10 feet, in dark areas like unlit hallways and dark allies, at night. We can pretty much expect the same thing to happen for many of us when we travel or move around, especially in larger cities. Also keep in mind that gang members like to target older people in places where the older person's movement is limited like in train cars on a subway or on platforms for subways. That's why you always want to put your back against a wall and keep your hand in your coat pocket to keep people from sneaking up behind you and implying that you might be armed or ready to engage a threat.

#4. One of the things I learned to do in Viet Nam was to scan ahead and seriously look for things that were missing as well as what was there and out of place. You have to look for both boobytraps and missing items as well. In a jungle or woodland you need to listen hard and if you don't hear singing birds that means that there's a predator or people nearby your location. If you see a bucket, garbage can or something strange next to where you're going to travel you need to suspect a bomb or boobytrap. Maybe it's nothing but, just to be safe, think ahead of trouble and avoid that area. If you see both something strange and no animals or bird sounds in the area, get out of there immediately!!! That area is definitely a trap or kill zone of some kind.

#5. Layer your defenses. Over in Viet Nam I carried a sniper rifle for long range engagements, a pistol for close range social events, a knife for contact events and an entrenching tool for when I needed powerful impact at really close range. I also had grenades and claymore mines to use that were stationed on my side of the barbed wire or razor wire as well. So if you were coming at me, you had to get to the triple wire fencing as I was shooting at you. If you got into the wire I would rain hand grenades down on you. If you got to the last line of wire I would set off my claymore mines and continue to shoot you down with the rifle and throw more grenades at you. If you got too close my .45 caliber pistol would engage you until it was empty and then the knife would come out and we would dance because sniper rifles don't have lugs on them for bayonets. I figured that by the time I would be overrun I would have accounted for over 30+ enemy dead if things went right before they got me. I've kind of done the same sort of thing, without the barbed or razor wire being obvious, for my home. Jeff Cooper did that same thing to his residence in a more extreme manner which I thought was interesting. Look what he did as far as security of his home.

#6. Effectiveness is not measured in caliber. It's measured in common sense, accuracy of fire and good tactics. Tactical or SWAT teams all use the same basic principles: get close to the bad guy, use multiple bullet strikes and deliver accurate, well placed bullet strikes on to the target's kill zones. To achieve such accuracy and precision these teams constantly practice their craft and their shooting over and over and over. While many use .45, .40 and 9 mm pistols the one key link that they all have in common is repeated training and practice.

Those are the 6 main points I want to start this thread with for now. Let's see what other people wish to contribute to this thread.

 

[FL-NC]

Crush the enemy and never quit. Keep your head, remember your training (train hard and often) and accept the fact that you may be a casualty. I guess that's about it.

 

[Jenrick]

If the extent of your practice is large targets at close range, the extent of your ability will be large targets at close range - Dave Harrington two time NCOIC at the JFK Special Warfare Center

I saw/see this often as a full time LEO, and firearms instructor (I was range cadre for 5 years at my department, and we are in the top 15 nationally size wise). Officers who spend a lot of time doing "tactical" drills, and "CQB" shooting. They are fast and can make hits on the move, but back them up to the 15 yd line and suddenly being on the backer is a challenge. We've had multiple shootings at my department in the past 10 years that were over 15 yds away, including two that were 50 yds+. Close range marksmanship is simple, the manipulations are hard due to the compressed time available to you.

A gun doesn't solve every lethal problem. Be prepared to cut an assailant off of you, strangle them to death, etc. A gun isn't a talismann that a bad guy flees automatically, it's just another factor in their decision to act. You may not have time to access it, it may not be effective, it may just plain not work, it is merely another tool on your belt.

 

[Bill Raby]

You got that right! The internet it flooded with useless arguments about what caliber is better. Fact is that a 100 pound girl with a 22 pistol in her pocket is better armed than a guy that has tactical pants, tactical sunglasses, a tactical pen, and a dozen Glocks back in the closet.

 

[MedWheeler]

Rifleman173 writes:

There might be a time when avoiding a fight is the smarter move. Always keep that option in mind.

Absolutely.

As a LEO, self-extraction was rarely an option.

As a civilian, it should be the first, if possible. Too much discussion on self-defense spends too little time on this.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Be violent enough, quick enough.

It's OK to be rude to someone who's trying to test your boundaries.

The fight that you're in isn't going to be anything like the fight that you trained for

Yes, this really IS happening and yes, it really IS happening to you

 

[bearcreek]

As a LEO, self-extraction was rarely an option.

As a civilian, it should be the first, if possible. Too much discussion on self-defense spends too little time on this.

I hear this constantly, I even teach it to some degree myself in our CHL classes. I'm curious as to why though ( I know why I teach it). Do you say this because you think it's the way it should be or because it's the way it is? To be clear, I think this question is relevant to this thread but I'm fully aware that it has the potential to derail things. If that happens, I'll bow out straight away. Threads like this are the most valuable ones on these types of forums, IMO.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

I hear this constantly, I even teach it to some degree myself in our CHL classes. I'm curious as to why though ( I know why I teach it). Do you say this because you think it's the way it should be or because it's the way it is? To be clear, I think this question is relevant to this thread but I'm fully aware that it has the potential to derail things. If that happens, I'll bow out straight away. Threads like this are the most valuable ones on these types of forums, IMO.

Any time you pit your will against another's there is a chance (could be great could be small) that you lose.

If you lose out there on the street you are now at the mercy of your attacker (if you are not already dead).

The game doesn't have rules and will never go the way you think it will.

Just make sure the fight is worth the risk.
There will be times when there is no other acceptable option. Then fight.

Remember that you have no duty to perform.
And that whatever you do, you have to live with.

 

[Rifleman173]

Time is always on the side of the smart person. What that means is that sometimes you might want to fall back, consider your options and then go back at the target from a different way with different tactics or smarter tactics. By the same token, you don't want to waste time either. You want to be careful but not overly cautious to the point that you become frozen with fear or too incompetent to act in a precise manner. You need a balance based off of common sense, good training and experience. Sometimes an expedient plan, implemented in a hurry, can work wonders as well as well thought out plan. So the leader of a group needs to understand all of these things and use these ideas to confront various situations.

Another thing that I always stress for new/novice people is mount a scope on your primary rifle. The scope is not there to try to turn to rifle into a sniper rifle. It's there to enhance your over all accuracy and give you an edge over other shooters who may not have a scoped rifle. A simple 4 X (4 power magnification) scope will work wonders for the majority of people when the scope is adjusted to the shooter's eyesight, ammo and the rifle that's being used. The 4 X scope is the basis for the American ACOG system and the British SUSAT scope systems used by those militaries to enhance basic shooting accuracy for the average infantryman. Just about every rifle should have some form of scope or telescopic sight on them for use by a survivalist or in emergency situations.

 

[IlikeSA]

It is easy to want to move quick, but know that 90%+ of the time, you should take your time. It's the slow moving hunter who gets the prey, not the fast mover kicking through the brush. You will feel pressure to move fast in training, resist it. Get there safe, control your breathing, make the shot.

 

[MedWheeler]

bearcreek writes:

(asking about my promoting the idea of self-extraction)

I'm curious as to why though ( I know why I teach it). Do you say this because you think it's the way it should be or because it's the way it is?

I see the concept of self-extraction as something that should be an integral part of a self-protection practice. In LE or military service, a certain duty to remain engaged (or re-engage if the other party breaks off) is often the case, prolonging a potentially-deadly encounter (and, of course, increasing the risk of "losing.") In a civilian self-defense scenario, little or no such duty will typically exist, making the number-one priority simply surviving as uninjured as possible. Many "experts" or others discussing self-defense too frequently place emphasis on "taking down" the BGs, and fail to recognize that simply escaping and surviving counts as a "win." Remaining engaged keeps one in danger longer.
This is why most civilian self-defense shootings involve less than half-a-dozen rounds fired, while LE shootings, even by a lone officer, involve far more. Suspects shot at by police officers know that the cops will keep pursuing, and will be more motivated to try to stop them. Suspects who flee from armed citizens are much less likely to be pursued, and they know that, so they're less likely to stick around and keep shooting.

If self-extraction isn't considered an actual "tactic", then I apologize, as it would then be off thread-topic (if it's not a "tactic", it's got to be at least a "strategy.")

 

[bearcreek]

bearcreek writes:

(asking about my promoting the idea of self-extraction)

I see the concept of self-extraction as something that should be an integral part of a self-protection practice.

When you say "practice", to what are you referring, exactly? How would one practice that, outside of mental exercise? I mean, it's not as if it makes sense to go to the range and practice not shooting.

In LE or military service, a certain duty to remain engaged (or re-engage if the other party breaks off) is often the case, prolonging a potentially-deadly encounter (and, of course, increasing the risk of "losing.") In a civilian self-defense scenario, little or no such duty will typically exist, making the number-one priority simply surviving as uninjured as possible.

Certainly. That is the conventional thought process and it's what I teach my CHL students. It seems to me to be based largely on the way that the system has become over time, rather than on any concept of moral obligation. We are at a point now where a civilian may have to decide whether saving lives, other than his own, is worth possible financial ruin. I realize that that is the way things are and we must deal with it and train accordingly but I'm curious as to what the opinion of other members on this forum, especially those with real world experience, is regarding this. There was a time when it would have been considered perfectly natural, morally upright and maybe even obligatory in some cases (assuming the person had the means) for a civilian to intentionally engage an active killer, for example, even when/if he could get away. And he/she wouldn't have faced bankruptcy or worse afterwards. Do you think that the way things are now is the way it should be, or are you just being a realist and recognizing that that's the way it is, like I am.

Remaining engaged keeps one in danger longer.

Of course. Why should a civilian face potential legal consequences for that though? I don't believe civilians should be legally obligated to engage but I also don't think they should be penalized for doing so, unless, of course, they do so negligently, just like an LEO.

If self-extraction isn't considered an actual "tactic", then I apologize, as it would then be off thread-topic (if it's not a "tactic", it's got to be at least a "strategy.")

If this was in reference to what I said about derailing the thread, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't side tracking things into yet another debate about civilians trying to be Rambo or whatever. Hearing from those with real world experience (which I do not have) is what this thread is about, so I don't want to bump things the wrong way, since threads like this are already too rare, IMO.

 

[Jeff White]

Of course. Why should a civilian face potential legal consequences for that though? I don't believe civilians should be legally obligated to engage but I also don't think they should be penalized for doing so, unless, of course, they do so negligently, just like an LEO.

We aren't going down this rabbit hole here. Taking the discussion in this direction will result in the thread being closed as off topic. The law is what it is and it's not in the scope of the Strategies, Tactics and Training forum to discuss how things should be.

 

[bearcreek]

We aren't going down this rabbit hole here. Taking the discussion in this direction will result in the thread being closed as off topic. The law is what it is and it's not in the scope of the Strategies, Tactics and Training forum to discuss how things should be.

Fair enough. I thought that might be the case.

 

[Rifleman173]

There are basically 3 ways to practice. #1. You go to a range and do live fire. #2. You practice dry fire in a safe and secure manner. #3. You do mental exercises and unarmed walk-throughs in the area that you plan to defend. You look at your area or home that you plan to defend from the outside like you're going to attack it. You check distances, look for weaknesses and look for ways to penetrate the perimeter. That's what a mental exercise part is all about: checking yourself and re-checking yourself and your defensive plan again and again. No plan remains the same for long because the plans need to be updated, fixed or changed as circumstances change or new technology comes into play.

Dry fire though is your best friend. It is dry fire that really helps you work out the bugs in your defensive plans. You get to move with your firearms in your hands, switch back and forth between the firearms like you would do in an actual emergency. Dry fire training, often called "walk throughs," is what many tactical teams will do before going in on an operation. They will do such walk throughs over and over until they can practically do the movements in their sleep.

When you do live fire, you need to try to make your live fire distances close to the same length that you plan to actually be shooting. If you live in a large manor house, which 99% of don't live in, and if you have a long hallway that measures an unusually long 75 feet, then you need to practice shooting some targets at that longer 75 feet distance. When possible, you also need to try shooting different angles too like uphill and downhill as well. Trouble is that finding a range which allows a shooter to do all the things that need to be done is a hard to locate. About the best place for practicing some of these shooting techniques is often in an old abandoned strip pit of some kind if you can get the land owner's permission.

 

[Rifleman173]

Bearcreek, to kind of answer your question, in some cases the police in some states are legally mandated to stand fast and not retreat. In other states movement of the police can be discretionary. If you look at some of the school shootings, different agencies train to respond to active shooters in a school in different ways. At one school shooting, officers were told "to stage" and the thought was that a local SWAT team would go in and engage the active shooter. In other areas/states, field or beat cops are taught to respond immediately to an active shooter in a school. Some of the tactical teams receive advance training, new gear for tactical work and personal protection. So depending on which state you live in, how the police departments are set up and how the local state laws are designed, all that comes together to meet local criteria for whether police can fall back or are legally required to not back down at all.

 

[Golf-21-Bravo]

Dealing with the adrenaline dump and shooting effectively under stress are key things to deal with in regards to self defence when firearms.


Obviously time spent on the range honing basic marksmanship principles is crucial, it cannot be denied; but that basic marksmanship will erode badly under combat stress and people are often surprised at how bad they are when firing under stress.


It’s something that militaries have been trying to train their troops in for a very long time and it generally works or at least helps. As civilians training in defence it’s worth applying as much stress to yourself in your training as legally and practically possible. That might be doing 30 burpees or sprinting for a few hundred metres before a shoot or doing force-on-force simulations that will help you get used to snap decision making under duress. Anything that will help you to deal with that sudden burst of primal fear that you’d have to deal with in reality.


Shooting and tactical theory is all good and has to be taken into account but if the brain is flapping becouse it thinks it might suddenly die, then the rest will suffer badly. Great shots will become average shots and average shots will be become awful shots and so on.


Train for sudden stress and physical discomfort as best as possible and then work on the theory.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

The OP mentions over and over situations in Vietnam. While certain actions could be studied upon most military or LEO advice doesn't correlate to civilian carry. This is nothing new.

Avoid conflicts at all costs. If you must fight fight as if your life depends on it as it likely will. And train accordingly.

As usual situational awareness is paramount.

 

[george29]

1) Know the law. Not what you've been told but what you've been shown. Knowing the law allows one to make immediate decisions. Most people don't know the legal difference between the Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground.
2) Do everything you can to avoid a fight. This might mean possessions get stolen or broken but those are easily replaceable, they are also cheaper than hiring an attorney.
3) Have a plan for everything, fire, burglary, home invasion, chemical spill up the road, power outages, etc.
4) Get good insurance. It's easier to watch your car / house disappear if it's properly insured.
5) Invest in solid doors, steering wheel locks, proper lighting, trimmed bushes, burglar bars, alarm system, etc.
6) People are unpredictable, don't confront them if possible.
7) Join a law firm that specializes in use of force. My membership costs me $11/more and was recommended by my security company.
8) Most cops are decent and sympathetic but the report they write goes to unsympathetic prosecutors and DA's so limit what you say to nothing more than generalities. I was taught to say, "I was the victim of a crime and do not give permission to search my home or vehicles and have nothing further to say without my lawyer present."
9) A crime usually happens very quickly and is over very quickly but the trauma can last a lifetime. Trauma can cost you your marriage, job, peace of mind and mental health. Do all you can to not become a victim. Many neighborhoods aren't safe at anytime but some places that are fine during the day go through a metamorphosim at twilight until about 5am. Criminals are sociopaths, narcissists and sometimes psychopathic, they are chameleons, especially the ones who have graduated Cumma sum laude from Attica U or similar prestigious university. Is the Midnight movie really worth it?
10) Listen to your local scanner, (I downloaded Broadcastify on my android) learn the codes, criminals do. You'll be surprised by how busy they are over nonsense and resources are stretched thin.
11) Evaluate your life as if you were a criminal casing you. Many people are burglary victims of their children's friends for example. Going to an ATM? Where would you stand if you were a criminal waiting for a victim? Does someone in your household post their every move and photographs on social media? Did someone post a selfie showing something valuable in the background?
12) Identity theft. Check your account daily. Don't allow the phone or website to remember your password. Phones get stolen all the time and we all have banking apps on them. Don't allow a stranger to borrow your phone, I fell for this and she took off and ran into a waiting car that zoomed off.
13) Most victims are people with a victim mentality, crime can happen to anyone, anywhere, anytime, be aware and stop gawking at your phones all the time. Cops don't carry guns to protect civilians, they carry guns to protect themselves so that they can protect civilians.

 

[Old Guy]

Yesterday, I set out to buy new, good Scissors for my Wife, she was engaged in making capes for my 59-year-old Daughter who runs an animal welfare organization. I was up, showered, and ready for off, P was covered in bits of green shiny material.

As I went to Office Depot, and back home, with the goods, it dawned on me, it was the first time in a long while I was not accompanied by my 74-year-old Wife. I am 83.

Then, again on my own, off to pick up a prescription, at Cosco, still on my own! Also filled up with gas, love a full tank. Armed as all ways with my Glock 19 4th Gen Pistol, spare 17 round magazine, plus a very bright SureFire flashlight, Oh and a folding knife. TruGlo night sights, just been away for insert changes, very bright green now.

I still watch, note people, vehicles, parking, and be watchful of individuals close to me, and my Marked Vehicle, my Son owns a Security Company, I get a Gas Card!

The big difference, I was not hyper-vigilant, as I am when with my Wife of 26 years. Opening her door, if she is in heels, hold her arm to be sure she enters the Jeep safely, lock her door prior to closing it.
Any threat to her, by a Criminal, I would not hesitate to flood that person or persons with 147g Ranger Ts.
And instantly. Five years as a Bouncer in Liverpool UK Night Clubs definitely set the stage for instant attack mode. I was stabbed twice, regardless.

I am not walking around half asleep when on my own, but I sure am more on alert when accompanied by the love of my Life!

 

[Gridley]

When you say "practice", to what are you referring, exactly? How would one practice that, outside of mental exercise? I mean, it's not as if it makes sense to go to the range and practice not shooting.

It takes some set up and some friends, but you can do scenarios. One or more people set up a situation and run another person through it. "You're walking out of the grocery store. It is early evening but not fully dark yet, so we're going to turn off most of the lights. Here's your bag of groceries. The couch over there is your car..." Hopefully it goes without saying that no one should be carrying *any* live weapons in this kind of exercise. An important aspect is to set up at least three kinds of scenarios and not give the person about to go through one any clue as to which type they're about to deal with:
1. Where there isn't a real threat, and use of force is NOT justified.
2. Where there is a threat, but retreat is a valid option.
3. Where there is a threat, and retreat is not a valid option.

Note that this requires a certain amount of imagination on the part of everyone involved, and it takes some practice to get rolling. I've seen this done with things like paintball guns, or with laser training aids, but never gotten to that level of sophistication myself. A cardboard "knife" is easy to make, and a water pistol can stand in for a handgun.

 

[Old Dog]

There are some good points made by several posters in this thread. However, I've gotta ask the OP, who is this thread geared toward?

This thread is for those of us who have "seen the elephant" to express things that might help newer, younger less experienced people increase their understanding of what happens in most tactical events.

It would seem to me that there's just not that much that we can say on the internet that will help "newer, younger less experienced people" increase their understanding of what happens in most tactical events. A little clarification of what sort of "tactical events" are we talking about?

When you say "tactical events," this seems to presuppose those who are engaging in military or law enforcement activities; citizens typically are placed only in events they must react to, so long-term strategizing would not seem to be necessary. Ways to disengage would be.

Mugged at the ATM? Walk into a stick-up at the AM-PM Mini-Mart? Home invasion? Active school shooter when dropping off your middle-school student?

You can't learn much about tactics by reading posts on internet forums. Training, and repetitive training, is the key.

And as much respect as I have for the late Col. Cooper, the hackneyed phrase "seen the elephant" as code for those who've been in real-life armed encounters seems silly now. I've seen elephants (actually rode one in Thailand once), and seeing elephants to me isn't a good way to describe ending up in a lethal force situation, especially a surprise or accidental one such as an average citizen would be likely to encounter.

However, in the spirit of the thread, all I have to add is that (to echo Golf-21-Bravo): if you've never trained in shooting while moving, a gunfight is not the time to learn how ... If you've never trained at shooting with a heightened pulse rate along with being out of breath while experiencing an adrenaline dump, a gunfight should not be the first time you've done this.

Not sure why the OP thinks we all need scopes on our rifles unless we are trained snipers or it's opening day for whitetail.

 

[herrwalther]

The internet and magazines are filled with self appointed experts (read as idiots) who have never been on the business end of a firearm shooting at them. So when getting actual training, know the credentials of the trainer.

Do as much training as you have the time and money for. Because until that moment of a gun fight happens, you will have no idea how you will respond. I have seen 10 year Army veterans get in their first firefight and crack but a fresh boot a few months out basic training look downright bored while getting shot at.

 

[Rifleman173]

However, I've gotta ask the OP, who is this thread geared toward? Old Dog, it's geared for all of us or anybody interested in the thread. I learn from threads like these because other people with experience different from mine put into them. Nobody knows it all so a thread like this one allows many people to learn, read, think and digest information that might help keep them alive later on when they go shopping, travel somewhere or even stay at home. A tactical event can happen anywhere at any time.

Two nights ago I took another tactical course in my area and learned a new way to engage targets using a modern method of point shooting. To me, there's 2 kinds of shooting: precision shooting and point shooting. All firearms tactical training will be based off of one of these 2 types of shooting styles.

Modern point shooting is extremely fast and deadly at close distances. This course taught us how fast good point shooting can be. It's the same way with this thread. I can pretty much assure people that we will all learn from it in the long run.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

However, I've gotta ask the OP, who is this thread geared toward? Old Dog, it's geared for all of us or anybody interested in the thread. I learn from threads like these because other people with experience different from mine put into them. Nobody knows it all so a thread like this one allows many people to learn, read, think and digest information that might help keep them alive later on when they go shopping, travel somewhere or even stay at home. A tactical event can happen anywhere at any time.

Two nights ago I took another tactical course in my area and learned a new way to engage targets using a modern method of point shooting. To me, there's 2 kinds of shooting: precision shooting and point shooting. All firearms tactical training will be based off of one of these 2 types of shooting styles.

Modern point shooting is extremely fast and deadly at close distances. This course taught us how fast good point shooting can be. It's the same way with this thread. I can pretty much assure people that we will all learn from it in the long run.

Point shooting is an exceptional skill to learn, fully warranted in civilian SD situations.

Not to say aimed sight is never warranted in SD situations but I get the hint that you're insinuating a hero mentality in something like a school shooting or terrorist attack.

Most civilian SD situations the defenders would be most benefited by some point shooting training, I agree with you there.