Factory MOA Gaurantee

[sirgilligan]

I was wondering if any have contacted a manufacturer and they told you the MOA expectation before they consider the accuracy to be poor enough to require warranty work. For example, I read a post about a Browning X-Bolt, and the factory told that 2 MOA is what is to be expected. Another post shared that a Browning BAR is at 5 MOA.

Have you contacted a manufacturer and was told the MOA for a rifle? What was it?

I ask because people complain about 2" groups not knowing the expected may be 3 or 4.

 

[jmr40]

Very few manufacturers will put an accuracy guarantee in print. Those that do specify a particular factory loading. I've never had a rifle that was bad enough that I felt it justified being returned. Based on others experiences if a hunting rifle will shoot 2 MOA most manufacturers won't do anything and call it "in-spec".

I've seen numerous situations where someone had a rifle that they didn't think was up to par (3-5 MOA). But when the rifle is returned with a test target from the factory it is usually acceptable. Maybe not exceptional, but acceptable. With 8-10 years of following numerous gun forums I've seen very few situations where a manufacturer actually replaced a barrel or rifle because it was unacceptable accurate.

I might find 3-4 MOA acceptable from some rifles or carbines shooting pistol calibers. But most rifle cartridges will usually be well under 2 MOA regardless of action. Any more there is no reason for a bolt rifle to shoot more than 1 MOA with good ammo.

 

[CarJunkieLS1]

I can tell you this is that Weatherby's MOA Guarantee is complete crap!!! I bought a NEW Vanguard S2 in 7mm-08 and the best I could get it to shoot was 2 1/2 inch 3 shot groups. I have several other rifles that I can shoot MOA or sub-MOA so I'm a capable shooter. I tried 4-5 different factory loadings even tried some handloads and tried 3 different scopes/rings NOTHING helped. I probably shot 200 rounds trying to get it to shoot half way decent.

I called Weatherby and told them everything in great detail and I wanted to send it back because it didn't meet the Accuracy Guarantee. The man I spoke with said quote "you would be wasting your time and money sending it to us to verify the MOA guarantee." I let a local custom rifle builder build a custom off of it for me and its a 1/2 MOA for 5 shots shooter now.

I will NEVER give Weatherby another dime and will NOT reccomend them to anyone. For the $ I'd buy a Tikka or Savage.

 

[Flatbush Harry]

I bought a Sako Bavarian in .300 WSM back in Dec. 2014. It comes with a written 1 MOA guarantee and easily beat it, producing a 5-shot 0.75" group at 100 yards with Federal Premium hunting ammo. I was pleased enough that I may get a Sako TRG instead of an AI rifle for my final precision rifle.

Harry

 

[FLIGHT762]

I have a friend who is dealing right now with Weatherby and their 1 MOA guarantee in a 338 Win. Mag. He lives within a few hours of their facility and is going to take the Rifle to them. We'll see what happens.

I had a Ruger M-77 13 years ago that wouldn't shoot well. I sent the rifle in to Ruger TWICE and the replaced the barrel each time. They were quite good about it. Finally, the third barrel shot well. It was a 260 Rem. I took my biggest Black Tail Deer with it.

 

[bush3755]

The biggest variable in getting rifles to shoot bullets accurate is the person holding onto the rifle. We all don't have the same marksmenship skills. If a hundred people took a rifle and its ammo to the range (that tested 1/4 MOA at worst at 100 yards for 10-shot groups when shot in free recoil) and shot it the traditional way with it held against their shoulder and resting somehow on a bench, they would shoot few-shot groups ranging from huge (2 MOA) to very tiny (under 1/3 MOA).

Why do you think benchrest winners and record setters don't hold onto their rifles when they're shot? They're fired in free recoil (untouched except for a finger tip on a 2 ounce trigger) so they point to the same place every time the bullet leaves. Hand held rifles don't do that.

 

[BLB68]

I'm curious: Does Weatherby specify what ammo it uses for the 1 MOA guarantee? Do they provide a test target marked with the info?

I remember looking on some manufacturer's website (forget which), and they were actually specific about which ammo they used for their guarantee testing. I remember thinking that it'd be nice if everyone did that.

 

[buckhorn_cortez]

The biggest variable in getting rifles to shoot bullets accurate is the person holding onto the rifle. We all don't have the same marksmenship skills. If a hundred people took a rifle and its ammo to the range and shot it the traditional way with it held against their shoulder and resting somehow on a bench, they would shoot few-shot groups ranging from huge to very tiny.

Why do you think benchrest winners and record setters don't hold onto their rifles when they're shot? They're fired in free recoil (untouched except for a finger tip on a 2 ounce trigger) so they point to the same place every time the bullet leaves. Hand held rifles don't do that.

If you're accuracy testing a rifle by shouldering it - then you don't know how to accuracy test a rifle. You take the shooter out of the process to the greatest extent possible - then you're testing the rifle not the rifle+shooter combination.

When testing a rifle, I use a rifle sled + sandbags and shoot in a 100 yard tunnel so that the bullets are not affected by wind / crosswind.

I have a Les Baer .308 that came with a 0.5-inch guarantee. I've shot 0.375-inch groups using Federal Match 175 grain cartridges in the 100 yard tunnel. In this case, the rifle is better than the accuracy guarantee.

 

[HB]

I think most rifles can be made shoot well but it all comes at a cost. You just have to decide how much you are willing to spend. 10 different boxes of ammo does not makes sense for a Savage Axis.

I've never met anybody that returned a rifle for poor accuracy but I imagine it happens fairly regularly. Then the factory shoots it 3 times and returns it. The fact of the matter is most people are incapable of producing tiny groups, no matter what the internet tells you.

2'' is more than accurate enough for deer hunting in most places. Smaller groups are more of a goal of serious hunters and guys that enjoy shooting.

If it is a factory curable issue my guess is they start with the crown then bedding on down the line.

HB

 

[CarJunkieLS1]

To BLB68 when I called weatherby they said they accuracy test with the Barnes TTSX 140gr Factory Load for 7mm-08. I tried some and I got 2 3/4 inch groups with it. SOOOO I don't know what to tell you about my Weatherby, but after a recrown, bedding job, mutiples scopes and mutiple different ammo types it still didn't meet the MOA guarantee.

It took a another stock and bedding job, Rifle Basix trigger, rebarrel, and target crown by Tooter Meredith of Meredith Rifles to make this thing shoot like it is supposed to. He has a 1/2 MOA guarantee for 5 shots. And my rifle does it easily.

 

[sirgilligan]

I have a CZ 527 Varmint in 223. 5 of us shot it to test accuracy using 5 different grain ammo from 35 to 75. All shot off a bag on a truck hood. Some used the set trigger some didn't. All groups were 1 inch or better at an estimated 100 yards that we stepped. So I do not think shooters are such a variable to not be able to test a rifle. Ages of shooters from 22 to 80 years old.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=731809&highlight=527

 

[sirgilligan]

But back on topic, what is the MOA that you have been told by a manufacturer?

 

[WNTFW]

As said very few will specify it, even custom rifle builders. My brother and I also have Weatherby Vanguards, but they shoot well. I don't think the factory targets specified the load. I guess the guarantee is only as good as the people standing behind it. It would be really easy to shoot @ 50 and claim 100, wouldn't it?

 

[sirgilligan]

As said very few will specify it, even custom rifle builders. My brother and I also have Weatherby Vanguards, but they shoot well. I don't think the factory targets specified the load. I guess the guarantee is only as good as the people standing behind it. It would be really easy to shoot @ 50 and claim 100, wouldn't it?

They don't publish it but the info leaks out when people seal with warranties and customer service. So I wanted to capture this leaked info, like the info in the first post.

 

[WNTFW]

Sir Gilligan,
I agree decent shooters should get close to similar results. I agree there are variables and most guys know enough to be able to say when a rifle does not shoot well.
One day my buddy was trying to sort out a rifle for a friend. He got fed up and asked me to shoot it to verify if it was just him. Before I shot it I told him I have seen him get results enough to know it was not him. My first two shots went close to being in the same hole, which was odd for the rifle based on what we had just seen. I knew I am about even with him in general, but he is better from a bench. I still knew it was not me being better. My third shot was over 4" away at 100yds. Some rifles are flaky. Sometimes I enjoy trying to figure out the cause and sometimes I just want to shoot a rifle that works.
For me being able to call shot is what I look for.

 

[sirgilligan]

I agree 100%. My brother has a hunting rifle that can put 2 shots touching at 300 yards but the third shot is always off. Since it is a hunting rifle he loves it. A target shooter would hate it.

 

[Sunray]

A Factory MOA Guarantee nearly always clearly defines the ammo used in the factory testing.
Weatherby's MOA Guarantee states "with factory or premium ammunition." However, a hunting rifle that consistently shoots 2 1/2 inch 3 shot groups is good enough.

 

[WNTFW]

My Weatherby did come with a guarantee - but I can't tell you what is was at this time. I think it was 1.5 MOA guarantee back then on a Vanguard Sporter. I only know eventually it shot well under the guarantee. Neither my brother or I went out and bought the rifles, both were won at NRA events. Essentially it is a rifle I would not have gone out and bought, but now I am not looking to get rid of. I did have a problem with the scope that came on it. It drove me batty until I realized the problem. In the meantime I heard a lot of voodoo theories on rifle accuracy! While some were valid accurizing techniques none logically addressed the core problem, so I didn't try them.
Winning the rifle was a pivotal thing for me as it made me interested in practical rifle accuracy. Whether it is a blessing or a curse is up to debate.

 

[scythefwd]

ls1 - you tried new rings, new scopes, several different loads (I shoot more than 100 just in one ladder test for 1 powder and projectile combination... in something like 06, I'm looking at almost 300 to cover the spectrum of the load range...). Did you ever pull the bases and re-torque them? I've seen bases come from the factory that weren't snug and let the back of the scope wonder...

 

[sirgilligan]

Sure, 2 inches is fine for an antelope or bigger not too far away. Not really good for a rodent shooter.

Expectation is increasing because prices are going up, even if the price change is inflation people think quality should go up.

Sounds like Ruger wins with actually re-barreling a rifle twice.

But surely others have discovered the acceptable MOA because of talking to customer support.

 

[fotheringill]

I may only comment on rimfires.

Savage, in its FAQ's states 1"@ 100 yards.

CZ on a return service ticket stated 1"@50 yards.

CZ will, 90% of the time shoot sub 1/2" @50, with scope and mid level Eley on a rest.

Other than locking an action or rifle onto a sled that isn't going to move and shooting top shelf ammo, there are too many variables (i.e. shooter or ammo) for any manufacturer to stick out its neck.

 

[sirgilligan]

Pick your favorite factory rifle you own, a Remington, Browning, Weatherby, Saiko, which ever, what MOA would cause you to contact the company? 2 MOA? 3? 4?

 

[Lord Teapot]

fnar comes with 1moa guarantee, more than meets it.

 

[sawdeanz]

I'm surprised, do the Weatherby's not come with a factory test target? Seems like that would prevent a lot of headache.

 

[sirgilligan]

My Nephew has FNAR. He was having fits with it 3 iMOA.. My brother looked at his ammo. He had bought a bunch of different kinds and dumped them in a bag. Mr brother sorted them and magically it was a one MOA rifle.