Fad of no Hammer Spur and DAO?

[bluetopper]

Seems like the fad at this particular point in time is a lot of wheel gun people going to double action only and no hammer spur. Is this the case?

I've always enjoyed having the option to shoot the gun in what ever mode the situation deemed appropriate, single-action or double-action.

Me personally, I enjoy competing with a couple of buddies shooting 99.99% of the time in S/A trying to see how small a group of ten shots we can make on a target 25 yards away.

Is this style of shooting ancient history?

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

I like it on a pocket revolver, not so much on a belt-carried one.

Some "gun pundits" - notably Mas Ayoob - do recommend the mod on defensive revolvers. It removes any chance that the revolver could be cocked manually and unintentionally fired.

 

[MrBorland]

A fad? In some ways, I hope so. Nothing wrong with SA, but many revo shooters don't practice their DA shooting, and aren't sufficiently proficient as a result, so I see The Fad as a good thing, at least for now. That being said, if The Fad creates a generation of SA-deficient shooters, I suppose that would represent somewhat of a lost skill, though I tend to think DA is the mode more at risk of going that route.

Without having both in their repertoire, shooters have a glaring deficiency, and if they rely on a wheelgun as a defense weapon, that deficiency ought not be DA shooting.

I converted my 686 to DAO because I shoot it combat action style, and conversion to DAO helped sweeten the trigger. I also have others that remain DA/SA, including a K-22 and K-38 that I shoot both ways.

Me personally, I enjoy competing with a couple of buddies shooting 99.99% of the time in S/A trying to see how small a group of ten shots we can make on a target 25 yards away.

Yeah, I agree that's fun. I recently started doing this in SA, but I can tell you it's very satisfying when you're able to do this just as well in DA too. With either hand.

 

[9mmepiphany]

if you use a DA wheelgun for defense/combat, the correct way to use it is in DA.

if you're going to use it that way, the hammer becomes a liability as it could snag...plus you'll be tempted to cock the hammer for a SA shot.

becoming proficient with the DA trigger pull will actually make you a better shot in SA...less tendency to develope the habit of snatching at the trigger.

i don't think there is an accuracy advantage to shooting a wheelgun in SA...at least out to 50yards. all the top shooters in PPC used to shoot the 50yard stage (24 rounds) DAO. back when the wheelgun ruled Bianchi Cup, everyone shot the course DA

 

[stalkingbear]

I think it makes perfect sense for pocket/CCW revolvers to be DAO or "hammerless". That way, the last piece that will hang up while concealed drawing/firing has been removed. Naturally I'm talking shrouded hammer versions in this case. As to full size, or regular revolvers, they benefit greatly from retaining SA/DA action. I still shoot most of my magnum revolvers in SA the majority of the time.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Spurless or concealed hammer DAO revolvers have been around well over a century, so this is hardly anything new. I think it is more "small but devoted following" rather than "fad."

 

[rdrancher]

A fad? Maybe, but probably more of an evolution of revolvers used for self-defense, because that's what we typically see discussed here on the net.

Shocking as it may be to some, in "the real world", there are other uses for smallish, fairly lightweight, revolvers other than self-defense. Walking in the woods, fishing, hunting, performing ranch duties (for me anyway.) I want the convenient size and weight of a snubby, but I want the option of SA too...just in case.

rd

 

[FireInCairo]

I'm new to handgun ownership, but I'm glad the option is available. It makes no sense for someone like me (buying for personal protection/concealed pocket carry) would want an exposed hammer. I have no interest in firing in SA mode because this is a tool I want to use to protect myself and my family. It would be highly unlikely that I would operate it in SA in a self defense situation, so I will train with it in the manner in which I intend to use it. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy shooting it. I'm looking it at pragmatically, though.

 

[JWF III]

I have questioned (in my mind) the usefullness of DAO vs. SA/DA. I've always had revolvers with a hammer, so I thought that was the best for everything. I was wrong. I recently bought a S&W M&P 360 for use as a carry weapon. after playing with it for a week or two, I desided I should have gotten the 340. I do like the 360, but as a carry weapon, the hammer has a chance to get caught on any loose piece of clothing. Murphy's Law can rear it's ugly head given the chance. For now I'll be content with it as it is, but eventually I'll be carrying a DAO pocket revolver.

Wyman

 

[dairycreek]

Just a personal opinion here! I think the reason so many shooters tend to "hang on" to their "hammer guns" is because they never take the time or opportunity to get really proficient with DAO shooting and, thus, hang on to shooting single action. Just my opinion but I think it holds some credence.

 

[john1911]

Depends on the intended use. A self defense piece is better off as DAO or shrouded hammer. A range, hunting, woodsbumming or general fun gun is fine with an exposed hammer and the ability to shoot SA.

My experience is that shooting a revolver DA is becoming less common. The people I shoot with (admittedly small group) either shoot semis or want to cock the hammer on DA revolvers for every shot. They don't want to attempt to master the DA trigger.

 

[ArmedBear]

It's only a "fad" insofar as CCW has been growing a lot, and therefore even many experienced shooters with safes full of guns, people who ordinarily collect and trade guns, and haven't bought a new gun in years, are going to the store and buying a 642 or similar revolver.

I like shooting double as well as single action. Each has its place. I wouldn't want a revolver and not be able to shoot it DA and SA, if it offers both.

A DAO is a specialized gun for carrying. Most DAOs sold are lightweights, another carry-specialized feature.

I almost bought an old CHP Model 60 .38 Special stainless snubbie. Neat gun. It had a hammer spur, but it had been gunsmithed to be DAO. Seems the CHP used to spec DAO backup guns. The idea is hardly new, and they even modified hammer spur guns to conform to the spec.

 

[Old Fuff]

If it's a fad it's nothing new. The practice started during the 19th century as soon as "trigger cocking" handguns became available. Today there are two sound reasons for the practice, but they don’t apply to everyone.

1. Lawyers with questionable ethics have been known to bring wrongful death suits in cases of a justifiable shooting, claiming that the “victim” was accidentally killed, when the shooter covered someone with a cocked revolver and unintentionally touched a (so called) hair trigger. This is mostly B.S., but they were successful enough to cause a number of large police and sheriff departments as well as some federal agencies to change to double-action-only revolvers – with or without hammer spurs.

2. Some hammer spurs are so badly designed that they will abrade a hole through a covering jacket, shirt, or whatever, and snag when the user tries to draw. A similar problem with pocket guns should be obvious. Besides bobbing the hammer spur, a possible solution is a holster that will cover the hammer spur, but there is still the possibility of getting the spur caught during a draw.

If neither if these things concern you by all means leave your S.A./D.A. revolver as it is.

 

[earplug]

Lighter faster hammer fall

If your going for a very light DA trigger for a game gun such as Steel, or USPSA taking the hammer spur off and lighting the hammer will help achive a light reliable DA trigger pull.
I haven't measured it, but on my SA gun that has some weight reduction on the hammer the lock time and hammer fall bounce seems less.
The no snag effect is nice too.

 

[Kleanbore]

An answer:

http://www.snubnose.info/docs/daovdasa.htm

 

[scottishclaymore]

Anybody who wants to learn to shoot their revolver seriously ought to be able to master the DA trigger. When I shoot my snub, I stick to DAO. My snubbie has a pretty smooth trigger pull, so there is not actually much of a difference anyway.

That said, it's still got a hammer spur. I'll probably get a shrouded or hammerless job one of these days... For now, though, this is working fine.

 

[BigBlock]

It's only a fad on the internet because people think they're extra cool when they can post a pic of a revolver that they chopped something off of. As far as real life goes...most people use a hammer...and that is evident by the extreme lack of used hammerless revolvers.

It serves no purpose if you've practiced pulling your gun more than once, and you're only nuetering an otherwise nice revolver. Just because you don't NEED the hammer is not a good reason to cut it off.

 

[ArmedBear]

a revolver that they chopped something off of

Uh, they ship that way from Smith and Taurus (probably the two most popular makers of light CCW revolvers), and Ruger's new lightweight offering is also hammerless.

Not sure what you mean...

 

[Glockman17366]

Before they went to semi-autos, a lot of city cops were only issued DAO revolvers. NYC for sure, and I think Baltimore as well, were issued DOA revolvers.
This was to minimize unintentional shootings.
Considering the number of shootings by LEO's, I'm of the opinion we should return to the 5 or 6 shot DAO revolver to instill trigger discipline.

I carried a spurred hammer revolver for a lot of years. I carry a shrouded hammer gun now, but that's for easier draw and less wear on my clothing.

I don't care for DOA revolvers, personally. I do like to be able to cock, which I can with my shrouded hammer revolver.

 

[Jim K]

Hi, Earplug,

To fire caps reliably, a certain momentum is required. Momentum equals velocity time mass. If you reduce the mass of an already light hammer, and either reduce or leave the mainspring alone, you are asking for misfires. The increased hammer speed will not be enough to make up for the loss of mass.

If you don't want to use the single action, buy a DAO gun; they are made to have the right balance of mass and velocity in the hammer.

FWIW, S&W still makes the Bodyguard, as slick as a hammerless, but it can still be cocked.

Jim

 

[earplug]

Competition hammers

I shot my S&W 625 today with sixty other pistols shooters. I was the only wheel gun.
I have been the only wheel gun shooter for the majority of the matches I enter. This shows me that few wheel gun owners practice enough DA work to be confident in public.
The light hammer works better for a seven pound DA trigger or less. If you do some research on modern gunsmithing for DA revolvers you will find that a light hammer is better. Check out Randy Lee's after market hammer for a start.
The lighter hammer swings faster hits harder. I wouldn't cut the hammer spur off and grind the guts out of a perfectly good hammer if it didn't make it work better.
This is the same principle of the various speed hammers on 1911 competition guns.

 

[Old Fuff]

I would note that earplug is apparently using a .45 / N-frame Smith & Wesson, (Model 625) that has a large and relatively heavy hammer with a longer distance between the pivot point and firing pin in the first place. If one is willing to sacrifice reliability they can achieve a light 6 to 8 pound trigger pull that may be considered acceptable on revolvers used for combat games. This was a common practice on PPC guns, but these revolvers were never considered to be applicable for other more serious purposes.

However if one downsizes to a little J-frame that may be carried as a weapon, the points raised by Jim Keenan are very valid indeed. J-frame hammers, with or without spurs, have nothing like the mass found in an N-frame hammer. The also have coil, rather then leaf mainsprings.

It would be a mistake to compare lemons with apples.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

and that is evident by the extreme lack of used hammerless revolvers.

"Extreme lack"? S&W seems to be selling absolute tons of the Model 642 and similar Centennial-derived models.

Concealed hammers don't seem terribly common on sizes larger than J-frame, and shrouded hammers aren't very "in" right now, but a very large number of J-frame revolvers and equivalents are concealed or bobbed hammer, at least in the last 10 years or so.

Just because you don't NEED the hammer is not a good reason to cut it off.

Not very many folks "cut it off", most buy revolvers without the hammer in the first place. Secondly, the aforementioned lack of snag/wear is a great justification for not having a hammer.

A true concealed hammer (Centennial) is even better, since there's no hammer slot at all, eliminating the easiest path for lint and grit to fall down into the mechanism.

 

[Revolver Ocelot]

i prefer no hammer on something i plan on carrying, whether it be in the pocket or on a belt. I just like it as it reduces the opprutunity for a snag

 

[jtwig]

I thought this 625 needed a spurless hammer and didn't want to cut or grind on the factory parts, so I made one for it. Still have the original parts... just in case I change my mind.
Did the conversion reduce lock-time? Hard to tell. Did it reduce perceived trigger pull? Maybe, but it does feel smoother. It has, nevertheless, reduced the "snag" factor.