Fad of no Hammer Spur and DAO?

[Bill2e]

For any of you PODCAST listeners go and find the most recent podcast from PROARMS PODCAST.

The episod is on triggers & hair triggers. They cave this topic very well. Massod Ayoob is one of the hosts. It is a newer posd cast, but very informative,

 

[hinton03]

And the solution is.....

The best of both worlds.

 

[jtwig]

Photo

Hopefully with this, my fourth attempt, there will be an image... not real handy with this computer stuff....

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

I've always enjoyed having the option to shoot the gun in what ever mode the situation deemed appropriate, single-action or double-action.

Me too, but I've discovered you can still do with with a gun with NO hammer spur - it's easy. When at the range, start the DA pull slowly with your trigger finger. Then when it's about 1/2 way back, grab it with your offhand thumb and finish cocking it and then, voila, you can shoot it single action as much as you wish. It's easy, and you still retain the snag-free draw of the hammer-spur-less gun.

There won't be any other time that SA shooting will be appropriate, since in self-defense, you'd shoot in DA only. But if necessary, you could do the same thing described in a self-defense scenario - by practicing it, it becomes easy.

 

[Old Fuff]

Dr Tad:

I know of several people who tried your system and ended up making a hole in something they didn't intend to...

 

[MrBorland]

Me too, but I've discovered you can still do with with a gun with NO hammer spur - it's easy. When at the range, start the DA pull slowly with your trigger finger. Then when it's about 1/2 way back, grab it with your offhand thumb and finish cocking it and then, voila, you can shoot it single action as much as you wish.

I have to agree with Old Fuff on this one. What happens if you need to de-cock for whatever reason? Possible to do, of course, but very tricky. I'd prefer any revolver of mine without a spur to also not have a SA sear.

I had my 686 converted to DAO, and discovered the SA wasn't ground off. I simply assumed it would be and never asked about it ahead of time. It's a range gun only, and I'm the likely only one who shoots it, but still...

 

[rdrancher]

There won't be any other time that SA shooting will be appropriate, since in self-defense, you'd shoot in DA only. But if necessary, you could do the same thing described in a self-defense scenario - by practicing it, it becomes easy.

Sorry Doc...

But this is exactly what I eluded to in my previous post. You, as well as the many of those responding in this post and others assume that there are only two uses for a revolver - range or self-defense use. In the real world there's a whole lot more places where SA can be used.

If one if my kids, my wife's $20k horse, or one of my dogs is endangered while I'm working around the property, it'll be an SA shot for me (even though I'm proficient at DA.) It may be a shot at a longer distance than I'd like and need to be taken immediately - and it better be a damn good one. That's just one scenario.

rd

 

[Kleanbore]

Shocking as it may be to some, in "the real world", there are other uses for smallish, fairly lightweight, revolvers other than self-defense. Walking in the woods, fishing, hunting, performing ranch duties (for me anyway.) I want the convenient size and weight of a snubby, but I want the option of SA too...just in case.

Yes indeed. And for me anyway, the best urban casual CCW hardware (very light gun, snag-free, no protruding sights) doesn't really cut if very well for those uses. That's not true for everyone.

I had bought a Model 60 with a hammer, reasonable sights, and 3 inch barrel before I knew enough to choose a gun for CCW. For me anyway, it didn't cut if for CCW in town.

So, along came a 442. I now have both.

 

[Glockman17366]

But this is exactly what I eluded to in my previous post. You, as well as the many of those responding in this post and others assume that there are only two uses for a revolver - range or self-defense use. In the real world there's a whole lot more places where SA can be used.

For suburban and urban carry, those little DAO or shrouded snubbies are great, and IMHO, the best choice (in the contest of this thread's subject).
On the ranch is a different story. You're in a different environment and you need a different tool...a 4" .357 with spurred hammer, for example. Hell, even a big old Ruger Blackhawk would be nice for ranch use...but not so good for urban carry.

The tool has got to fit the job at hand, and, one size does not fit all (so to speak).

 

[BigBlock]

For those of you getting snagged, you need more practice drawing. You should immediately put your thumb over the hammer before you draw anyway.

I keep a full size 4" GP100 in my pocket (not a holster) and the hammer has never caught on anything. To draw I grab the grip and put my thumb on the hammer - so it doesn't get caught, and I can cock it if I need to.

 

[tipoc]

The tool has got to fit the job at hand...

A good point.

Wheelguns with the hammer ground off and rendered incapable of sa shooting have been around for over a century. The point of these modifications was that they were pocket carry guns or concealed carry in an urban environment. The idea being that they were less likely to snag on a quick draw and could, in a pinch be fired from inside a pocket or a bag. Old Fitzsimmons of Colt carried two Colt New Services in .45 Colt in his pants pockets and promoted these mods and a few others for just such purposes.

The same general purpose is accomplished by hammer shrouds or by the S&W Bodyguard type guns. Both of these types are capable of a sa shot if need be.

A hammer on a gun doesn't mean that a shooter can't shoot da. Neither does it mean that a shooter will fall so in love with sa shooting that they do not make the effort to learn to shoot da well. If a shooter doesn't practice shooting da it's because they made the mistake of choosing not to. It's not the siren call of the hammer.

It's a mistake to believe that you'll never need a single action shot in a defensive situation, urban or rural. It may not be likely but then neither are mall shootings or shootings in crowded public places like churches or Universities. Not common but they do happen.

If a fella believes that one can shoot as accurately da as they can sa it's either because they do not shoot sa very well or because they are just flat out wrong. The strength of da shooting is in it's speed in close range encounters. A good wheelgunner will tell you they can shoot almost as accurately in slow da as they can in fast sa at a distance of 25 yards and beyond. But that's "almost".

Now I have two hammerless guns. A S&W 640 and a M66 modified by a cop to be dao and hammerless. I like 'em both. Both snag free. I can also draw my M19 without a snag by covering the spur with my thumb on the draw.

Hammerless guns have been around a long time and they will continue to be. For many it's a worthwhile modification applicable to some modes of carry and situations. But it has become trendy lately fueled by gun mags and some who believe that it makes them appear to be a "serious" pistolero. Bill Jordan never cared for them and I recall him being "serious".

tipoc

 

[MCgunner]

Me, I don't really give a nit what everyone else does or the "experts" say. I like the spur and refuse to cut it off the little Taurus. It works to retain the gun in my UM's ankle rig, got to have it with that holster. It doesn't seem to catch on anything from a pocket, either. I naturally go with the thumb to the hammer on the draw being so into Blackhawks and other single actions all my life, learned on a single action .22. I shoot quite well DA and will shoot DA for defense up close, but I like the SA for 25 yards and out, which yeah, I like to do with all my revolvers, even my snubs. I don't care if all gun fights are at 3 feet, don't give a dang. I enjoy plinking, so sue me. The little Taurus has a wonderful DA trigger and I do like to plink DA with it at 25 yards, but I see no reason to cut off a very useful device in the interest of fashion or to prove my manlihood or whatever is the fad now days.

I keep a full size 4" GP100 in my pocket (not a holster) and the hammer has never caught on anything.

Good lord! Do you attract a lot of hookers on Main street? My jeans have huge pockets, but not THAT huge.

 

[Old Fuff]

Bill Jordan never cared for them (bobbed hammers) and I recall him being "serious".

Several of his pet revolvers, including a favored S&W Model 19 had bobbed hammers. I know because I handeled them.

 

[tipoc]

I never read of that Old Fuff and I have read him speak against it. So thanks for the info. My point is that it's up to the needs and desires of the shooter. Trends and fads come and go. Spurless guns have been around for some time now and some find them useful in some situations. If a fella wants to so modify their piece or buy one so made, I have no argument. It's not the prescence or abscence of a hammer spur that makes a gun useful or "serious" mostly it's the shooter.

tipoc

 

[Old Fuff]

You're right, it is up to the individual. The purpose of these threads is to lay the cards on the table so that an informed decision can be made. Never, ever would I suggest that everyone should cut off all of they're hammer spurs because of the "cool factor." What ever one does it should be for a good reason.

Bill did not cut off the hammer spurs on all of his double-action revolvers either. But you may notice that his holster design was low-cut, and the checkering on some S&W hammer spurs can cut like a rasp! Also he tended to grip the handle toward the high side, and didn't want the bottom of the hammer spur to pinch the web of his hand between the thumb and forefinger. If you ever saw his hands, let along the size of the man you'd know what I mean.

He also didn't recommend that others bob the hammer, unless they had a reason to, and the first thing to do was perfect their double-action shooting ability.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

I know of several people who tried your system and ended up making a hole in something they didn't intend to..

Well, they didn't follow rule #1. I only do this at the range, so there's no chance of accident - even if the hammer slips, the only thing perforated is the berm.

As for de-cocking, yes, I could see that as a potential big problem if you cocked the gun during a self-defense scenario, but then didn't need to fire after all. If that happened, I would wrap nylon cord around the hammer so that it could not fall until I got to the range or a sand bucket to attempt to de-cock or just fire. Or, better yet, don't do it - in a self-defense situation, with a snubbie, rest assured I will be shooting DA or not at all. I don't see it as the slightest bit unsafe when I do it at the range.

 

[MCgunner]

Wow, I wonder how many times Wyatt Earp had to decock after drawing down on some drunk? I hope he lived close to a range with a berm.

I suppose there are good reasons to follow those four safety rules, eh? You know, like "keep the muzzle in a safe direction" type stuff? Some of you folks need some safety orientation.

 

[Landric]

Obviously the best choice is what works for the indiviual shooter.

Of my revolvers, only three have hammer spurs, and if I find the right gunsmith or spurless hammers for sale, none of them will. I shot a lot of IDPA (and I've been using a revolver this year). I find I shoot better DA even at longer ranges.

For me, DA-Only is best in a revolver, YMMV.

 

[MCgunner]

Anyone that thinks they can shoot DA with more precision than SA is deluding themselves. Try it at 100 yards, see if you can group as well. I do a lot of 100 and 200 yard handgun shooting. Yeah, I shot a lot of IDPA, was expert class, but I also enjoyed IHMSA for a while. I didn't see ANYONE, NOT ONE SOUL, firing DA on 200 yard rams. I don't know any hunters that have spurless hammers, either. I don't need no stinkin' spurless hammer on my pocket revolver. I can get on target just as fast and I can still plink at 100 yards with it, which I like to do on occasion. I'm a country boy, ain't privy to the extreme intelligence and gunfighting expertise it takes to live in the big city, I guess. I've never even been in a real gunfight. Damn, I must do that someday. When I do go to the big city, I AM usually carrying a DAO auto, though. I admit my little pocket DAO auto is my carry most of the time unless I'm headed out fishing. It's not stainless and my snubby is. . Besides, DA is not compatible with most real world outdoor shooting.

You know what I've shot the most of besides steel plates with my snubby? I mean living things. I've popped a few hogs in the trap with it, but the most things I've shot are sharks. I find a well placed shot to a sharks feeble brain will tranquilize him nicely using .38 special. Any shark I hang that is too big to grab behind the head with one hand or needs to be gaffed to get in the boat gets tranquilized. I've always used SA to do that and it's at about 10 feet! I've also taken the head off a couple of rattlers in the field, again about 10 feet, again SA.

I'm keeping my hammer spur.

 

[Old Fuff]

Landric:

Of my revolvers, only three have hammer spurs, and if I find the right gunsmith or spurless hammers for sale, none of them will.

What make and models do you have in mind?

 

[Glockman17366]

Anyone that thinks they can shoot DA with more precision than SA is deluding themselves. Try it at 100 yards, see if you can group as well...

In a self defense situation, we're not worrying about 100 yards or even 100 feet...more like 5 feet.

Now, the OP isn't specifying defensive use in this thread, just a fad he's observed of no hammer spur and DAO revolvers. I haven't seen any inkling of this fad. The only DAO revolvers I've seen were snubbies designed for self defense carry. The biggest were large bore snubbies for close encounters with larger critters when hiking (I suppose). But still, self defense was the design intent of the gun.

However, I've never seen DOA revolvers used strictly for target shooting at 100 yards.

So, going back to my previous post (#34)...select the right tool for the job.

 

[Landric]

Old Fluff:

What make and models do you have in mind?

A 681-3, 21-4, and Taurus 431.

 

[Old Fuff]

Oh nuts!! I think I have K & N-frame hammers, but not L-frame or Taurus.

Try the following link, I believe they might have some S&W/L-frame hammers that are bobbed. As far as the Taurus is concerned they might have a hammer, but I doubt that it would be bobbed - but who knows?

Remember that hammers are usually common to the frame size, rather then a particular model.

www.e-gunparts.com

 

[MCgunner]

So, going back to my previous post (#34)...select the right tool for the job.

I'll use my snub as I see fit. If I wanna shoot sharks with it SA, I will, thank you very much. If I wanna shoot a rabbit with it, I will. Or, if I wanna put a hog in the trap down with it, I will. If I wanna shoot the head off a snake with it, I will. It's usually what I have on me when these jobs need doing as I don't carry a 4" .357 magnum daily or a shotgun or whatever. I can kill humans with it, but it's more like a useful daily tool to me that I can defend myself with. I have taken rabbits with a 2" snub. It can be done. So, a shotgun is "the proper tool"? I don't care, I didn't happen to have a shotgun on me at the time when the opportunity presented itself. I wasn't there to hunt rabbits, but I don't turn down protein when I see it. Fried rabbit is good. I suppose I could carry around a handgun case and "select the Ruger Mk2 iron" as if playing golf, but real life really doesn't work that way. Yeah, if I leave the house specifically to hunt rabbits, I take my 20 gauge.

Again, there's no place in my collection for a spurless hammer. I guess I'm not a serious gun fighter like you guys. Then again, that little Kel Tec is loaded with 11 rounds of +P 9x19 in my pocket and it's DAO concealed hammer. So, I guess I really do have a spurless revolver, square revolver that feeds from the bottom. I usually have my revolver on me if I'm going down to my place or going fishing, though. The right tool for the job.....ROFLMAO!

 

[sgt127]

I just bought a slightly used Porsche Carrera GT. Most worthless car I have ever owned. Just the other day, me and a buddy went out running some trails on a friends ranch shooting at jack rabbits. Can you believe the stupid thing kept bottoming out on every rut on the dirt trails? Tires didn't have traction for crap either, hell, just a little loose sand and the back end would come right out from under you when you nailed the gas. Finally, we went through a little creek he has on the property and the damned thing got STUCK! You would think with that kind of horsepower, it would never happen, but, yup it did. Tried pulling it out with a kids bicycle, but, it didn't work. That kid was pedelling like a madman, but, I suppose it wasn't the right tool for the job. Finally, some old guy with a tractor came by and threw a chain to us and got us out. No idea why the hell you would want a tractor, though, I don't think it will go over 40 MPH. Hell, that Porsche will go 175 MPH without breaking a sweat!

So my buddy, with the little DAO Ruger SP101 sees a nice white tail at about 100 yards, he missed. Couldn't believe it, I thought the DAO SP-101 was supposed to be the perfect revolver. Scared the deer off though, so I didn't get a chance to pop a round off at him with my 6" Model 27. That gun has an incredible SA trigger. I had just thumbed the hammer back when my goober buddy cranked off that Ruger...Thank goodness it still had the hammer spur and I was able to thumb the hammer back down without poking a hole in the floorboard of that stuck Porsche.

On the way back to town, some idiot ran up to the car and tried to carjack us! I grabbed a handful of my trusty Smith model 27 and tried to draw. The damned hammer spur got caught on the waistband of my underwear and gave me a wedgie that about killed me. Once it tore loose, the hammer spur got caught in the lining of my goose down jacket, finally ripped it free and there were feathers all over the damned car. Guess all that screaming scared off the carjacker because he ran off, even before my buddy was able to whip that little Ruger out of his pants pocket faser than you can see!