FBI Miami Shootout Riddle.

[cowssurf]

"Hmm. Title of thread - FBI Miami shootout riddle - seems intrinsic to the conversation right here."
--Doug W.

Sorry Doug, I guess I chose a poor title, because most of the posts are way off of the topic I wanted to raise, which was raised in the post below my title. I guess a lot of people read the title and not the post. I thought they would read the title, say to themselves, "Riddle? What's he talking about," and then read my post.

I really am interested in the apparent catch-22 that resulted in the .40 being chosen over the 9mm by a great number of law enforcement agencies. Overpenetration by the 9mm is often cited as a negative of the 9mm, and I just thought the origins of the .40 with respect to the 9mm not penetrating enough is extremely ironic. I wanted to know what people thought about that. I really wasn't interested in their thoughts about tactics, long-guns vs. short-guns, blame games, etc. But oh well, discussion is fun. Still if anyone would like to respond to the original post, I might think that was more fun.

 

[MAKster]

I am amazed that the Miami shootout is continually brought up as the reason for this or that. The transition from revolvers to high capacity pistols was inevitable and well under way by that time and not the result of this one event. In the past twenty years there have probably been thousands of police shootouts that were just as dramatic or deadly yet they haven't taken on the mythological status. I really wonder how much of it is because of the movie with Michael Gross and David Soul.

 

[DougDubya]

Not your fault, cowssurf. My bad all the way.

 

[Geronimo45]

A .38 revolver (or a .357 firing .38s) 'won' the Miami Shootout. Not the shotgun, not the Mini-14. Mireles had an arm torn up, and couldn't handle the shotgun properly. He walked right up to the car Platt and Matix were trying to run off with and shot 'em both down. Sometimes, caliber is meaningless.

By the time the FBI decided that 10mm was too much gun, they'd forgotten about Miami to some extent. I guess they wanted a new round that people would have confidence in.

And the 9mm used was a very rapid-expanding HP design, which wasn't very good in the penetration department. Think they established their FBI standards (penetrate 12" or more of gelatin and expand) as a consequence.

 

[Defensory]

Posted by Geronimo45:
A .38 revolver (or a .357 firing .38s) 'won' the Miami Shootout. Not the shotgun, not the Mini-14. Mireles had an arm torn up, and couldn't handle the shotgun properly. He walked right up to the car Platt and Matix were trying to run off with and shot 'em both down. Sometimes, caliber is meaningless.

No, a .38 didn't "win" the shootout, and the perps weren't trying to "run off". Due to excessive blood loss and trauma from the numerous hits they had already taken earlier in the firefight, both perpetrators were lying helpless in the front seat of the vehicle. Matix may have been dead already, and Platt was nearly unconscious.

This allowed agent Mireles to simply walk up to the car they were in, and shoot them both at near-point blank range. A .22LR could've killed them at that range.

It was agent Dove's numerous 9mm hits on Platt as he crawled out of the passenger side window of the stolen Monte Carlo, that did more than anything to incapacitate Platt, allowing Mireles to walk over and finish him off. Especially Dove's shot that penetrated Platt's arm and went deep into his chest.

 

[IndridCold]

Over penetration myth?

I have to ask. I understand over-penetration is a concern but would a standard JHP LEO loading have enough energy to hurt/kill a bystander after penetrating through 12+ inches of bad guy? And, are there any cases that someone can name where a good guy's bullet went all the way through a bad guy and did more than injure some property. I'm alot more concerned about my .223 55 grain fmj's and my 12 gauge slugs going all the way through and hurting an unintended target than any handgun loading other than 357 mag.

 

[cowssurf]

"I am amazed that the Miami shootout is continually brought up as the reason for this or that. The transition from revolvers to high capacity pistols was inevitable and well under way by that time and not the result of this one event."
--Makster

Makster, I wasn't referring to semis vs revolvers at all in my original post. I don't really care about them, or the FBI shootout's relationship to them. I was actually talking about a semi-auto round from the FBI shootout and it's relationship to another semi-auto round in use today.

 

[DougDubya]

I think the difference is that the new .40 penetrates enough, but rarely goes through a torso. You get large expansion, with minimal threat to people on the other side.

Of course, the 12" penetration of tasty dessert takes into account the fact that it will have to go through clothing and perhaps rib or breast bone and cartilage and the extremely tough heart muscle. 13-15 inches has been stated as perhaps too much, while 12" allows for even an abdominal hit to slow down the bullet to prevent danger to bystanders.

 

[Moonclip]

Defensory, I take it your not a fan of the movie with Michael Gross that was made about this shootout either