Federal .44 Special LSWCHP

[Panzerschwein]

Hey guys!

I have a new Charter Arms Bulldog that is quickly becoming one of my most favorite revolvers, and I plan to use it for cooler month EDC and as a primary sidearm while in the woods (Eastern Kansas) all year around, plus using it is a secondary home defense handgun and possibly while traveling.

Needless to say, I need a good defensive load for the gun. I've been doing tons of research online, trying to find a good load that will reliably expand from the 2.5" barrel on my Bulldog. So far, I've tried Winchester 200 grain Silvertips, Blazer 200 grain GDHPs, and Hornady 165 grain Critical Defense rounds in .44 special.

The only one I've shot is the Blazer load. It gets many recommendations as a top carry load for the Charter Arms Bulldogs... but unfortunately, my gun does not like the aluminum cases that round uses. They stick terribly in the chambers, and had to be plucked one by one from the back of the cylinder during reloads. All other loads using brass cases often just fell right out of the gun, I didn't even need to use the ejector most of the time.

As for the other loads, after some research, neither seem very satisfactory. The Hornady 165 grain load does seem to expand from the Bulldogs, but underpenetrates and will only go about 9-10" in ballistics gel. I would greatly prefer something that goes over 12" per the FBI recommendations, but not more than 15-16" or so as I don't want a round that will overpenetrate.

The Winchester 200 grain Silvertips apparantly used to be a great load, but the ones I have are new production with a supposedly tougher jacket that won't reliably expand at Bulldog velocities.

Enter the Federal 200 grain LSWCHP round.



I bought 3 boxes of these from GunBroker just a while ago, and am wondering if this would be a good load for the Bulldog. I have heard it sold under both the "Champion" and "Personal Defense" line, the three boxes I got were listed as the Personal Defense marked ones, though I beliveve it's the same load. I think I read that this uses a softer hollow point bullet and should expand, it looks quite like an enlarger "FBI load" which is a .38 special +P 158 grain LSWCHP.

I am just trying to get some feedback on this particular load form Federal, and to see if anybody else has any experience with it. Will this be a good defense load for my Charter Arms Bulldog with 2.5" barrel? Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks so much all!

 

[Drail]

Well, since you are shooting a .44 cal. bullet I would not worry for a second about expansion. I have been loading shooting and carrying the .44 Spl for many years, most of those in a Bulldog Pug, and I don't lose any sleep over whether it expands or not. If you put it where it needs to go it doesn't need to expand. If you don't - it won't matter. The reason the Blazer Al cases are sticking is mostly due to the rough chamber finish. They can be polished so that all cases will extract easily. Blazer is also available with a brass case.

 

[crazysccrmd]

If you are able check the velocity over a chronograph. Winchester's 200gr Silvertip is advertised at 900fps but only did 619fps average from my Taurus 445. I have loaded 240gr hand loads that are faster than that.
Federal lists their 200gr LSWCHP at 870fps so you might be loosing an awful lot of velocity from a Bulldog.

 

[kBob]

Gosh a rootie!

Any of you guys know of an out fit that offers that bullet as a reloading component or that makes casting block for such 200 grain SWCHP in .429?

-kBob

 

[blarby]

NOE makes a great mould in that weight in 430.

I have another that does 210's, I'll check it tonight.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Yes! I need to get a chronograph bad, and will do so soon.

I also want to someday get my own ballistics gel and find this stuff out for myself. I live in town though, and don't think the neighbors would be pleased if I went shooting in town LOL!

 

[gun_with_a_view]

Personally, In 44 Special, I'd loose the thing for hollowpoints and just go for a good hardcast wadcutter, being as the bullet is already expanded.

 

[Duster340]

X2 gun with a view

Maybe the one on the right 240 gr WFP


Or the lighter 162 or 208gr WC (The 116 are great for ultra lite plinking LOL!), if higher velocity is your thing



All the pictured cast bullets shoot very well in my Bulldog 2 1/2" and I'm pretty sure they'd get it done assuming the shooter does his/her part.

 

[BSA1]

Not in 44 Special but in 45 Colt.

Federal LSWCHP is a old design that has been around for several decades. (I have a box of 45 Colt dated 1982). Forget about expansion in soft tissue from your snubbie. It will show expansion and damage when hitting a major bone. You are basically shooting a British big bore bulldog bullet and velocity.

 

[Panzerschwein]

It appears that there are no factory .44 special hollow points that will expand from the 2.5" barrels on the new Charter Arms Bulldogs. This load appears no different.

For defense, I prefer commercial ammo due to liability concerns. I also prefer a hollow point design to minimize overpenetration (however trivial) and to maximize wound damage (however trivial). I know it "start out as a .429", but when my S&W 642 can push a Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel 135 grain .38 special +P 13" or so deep in ballistics gel AND expand it to over .55" in diameter, what do I really get going with the .44 special? I want a bullet that will expand.

There is one load that seems like it almost certainly should work from my Bulldog... the Buffalo Bore 190 grain soft cast LSWCHP. This is a warm load, it's fairly stout. Now before anyone jumps my butt, I know what I'm getting in to here.

I have been in contact with Buffalo Bore several times concerning this load, and it's appropriateness in a Charter Arms Bulldog. They do have a disclimer on their website that would seem to ward of using most of their .44 special loads in a Bulldog, but I just had to pry deeper. Upon asking them, they said that they don't recommend firing these loads in Charter Arms Bulldogs of old manufacture. However, they also told me that limited amounts of ALL of their .44 special loads, including their 190 grain LSWCHP, would be fine to shoot in a Charter Arms Bulldog of recent manufacture. They said that the new guns are being built well, and that they are capable of firing these loads with no concern for safety. I let them know I would only be buying about three boxes worth, or 60 rounds, for testing and carry use. They said it should be no problem and to go ahead with it.

Now I know that the Charter Arms Bulldog is not meant for hot loads, but I am quite certain the management at Buffalo Bore would not be comfortable giving their blessing if it weren't okay to do so. I also know that this load will have some substantial recoil from my Bulldog. I'm okay with that, I just want the most effective defense load I can find in terms of wounding capacity... and I think I found it.

So without further ado, I'm going to be buying some of the Buffalo Bore 190 grain .44 special LSWCHPs for my Bulldog. I'll be buying just enough to test and carry.

 

[dickydalton]

Two of my favorite 44 Specials are Hollow points. barns TAC X200 and Remington 240 Core Loct.

74 cal after expansion and no weight loss. that 240 Remington at 850 FPS penetrated deeper than a 44 Mag. Black Talon.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Out of what barrel length?

 

[Duster340]

Hey Cooldill,
I too am curious to see how the BB round performs in your Bulldog. Looking forward to your range report. While I'm content with my stout WC loads (BB also offers some Bad A$$ sd WC 44 special loads) and practice extensively with the loads I carry for my EDC, I can appreciate the effort your putting into your research. Keep us posted on your progress.

 

[BobWright]

Cooldill said:

For defense, I prefer commercial ammo due to liability concerns.

Your ammunition source has no efect on your liability, you have bought whatever you have shot other than your opponent. Certainly neither Winchester nor Remington, or any other manufacturer will offer you one red cent toward paying for a shot out windshiled or holed car door.

Bob Wright

 

[Deaf Smith]

Well, since you are shooting a .44 cal. bullet I would not worry for a second about expansion. I have been loading shooting and carrying the .44 Spl for many years, most of those in a Bulldog Pug, and I don't lose any sleep over whether it expands or not. If you put it where it needs to go it doesn't need to expand. If you don't - it won't matter. The reason the Blazer Al cases are sticking is mostly due to the rough chamber finish. They can be polished so that all cases will extract easily. Blazer is also available with a brass case.

Supposedly the FBI's own protocols state that (after saying there is no such thing as stopping power) that the criteria should be:

A. Adequate Penetration.. supposedly between 12” – 18”.
B. Permanent Cavity
C. Temporary Cavity
D. Fragmentation
E. Psychological state of the adversary.

Well that .44 should make it in penetration, and expand or not, .44 is already 'expanded' compared to most 9mm.

So it ought to rate highly on their own test that supposedly does not measure anything.

Deaf

 

[Panzerschwein]

Cooldill said:



Your ammunition source has no efect on your liability, you have bought whatever you have shot other than your opponent. Certainly neither Winchester nor Remington, or any other manufacturer will offer you one red cent toward paying for a shot out windshiled or holed car door.

Bob Wright

?

There have been justifiable homicide defense cases that were made more difficult due to the defendant having used handloaded ammunition. As illogical and silly as it might seem to you or me, the prosecution might use this fact against you in the court of law, claiming that you loaded specially designed killing ammo etc. etc. etc. proving premeditation etc. etc. etc.

It has nothing to do with damage to something other than the attacker.

I just emailed Charter Arms themselves asking what they think about using Buffalo Bore ammo in their Bulldogs, relaying the information that Buffalo Bore had previously given me. We will see what they say about it.

 

[dickydalton]

Out of what barrel length?

850 FPS= 850FPS no matter what the barrel length is. I chronoed them to see if I liked the load and could have went hotter or lighter. I used the same powder charge for both bullets and the 200 Barnes actually only clocked 810FPS average.
It was a 629 Mountain Revolver 4", but as I said, I'm sure I could get the same velocity out of a Charter 2 1/2" with a different load.

 

[dickydalton]

Here they are:

 

[tulsamal]

IMO.. there is one clear standout for personal defense in the .44 Special. I carried it myself for years. The CorBon 200 grain DPX. Solid copper Barnes type bullet. Huge hollowpoint. Loaded at a moderate level so easy to shoot. I'm not the type that buys ballistics gelatin and calibrates it, etc, but everything I shot that bullet into showed excellent results.

Gregg

 

[diyj98]

Personally, In 44 Special, I'd loose the thing for hollowpoints and just go for a good hardcast wadcutter, being as the bullet is already expanded.

I lean a little that way myself. I do use hollowpoints in mine, but I really don't worry about tests. I just pick an accurate load and assume even if I get little expansion, I'm still tearing a .429 or better hole.

 

[BobWright]

cooldill said:

There have been justifiable homicide defense cases that were made more difficult due to the defendant having used handloaded ammunition. As illogical and silly as it might seem to you or me, the prosecution might use this fact against you in the court of law, claiming that you loaded specially designed killing ammo etc. etc. etc. proving premeditation etc. etc. etc.

To date I have seen no documentation where choice of ammunition played any part in such a case. In my state, Tennessee, if the case is ruled self defense, no crime has occured, there no trial nor suit. If the case is murder or manslaughter, a different story, or course. However, far more serious evidence is present in such a case, and ammunition choice is irrelevant.

Bob Wright

 

[gun_with_a_view]

justifiable homicide defense cases that were made more difficult due to the defendant having used handloaded ammunition

As long as the handloads are deadly, I take it that is the type of force device one is entitled to use under most state laws. So, where's the beef?

However, to insure the rounds you use ARE DEADLY in compliance with the statutes, best to use only commercial rounds that say so on the box or use language like 'personal protection" and "self defense".

That should be printed on the box in letters large enough for a jury to read clearly.

 

[Panzerschwein]

As far as the Cor Bon DPX 200 load, isn't that considered a hot load and is thus incompatible with the Bulldogs?

 

[Deaf Smith]

As long as the handloads are deadly, I take it that is the type of force device one is entitled to use under most state laws. So, where's the beef?

However, to insure the rounds you use ARE DEADLY in compliance with the statutes, best to use only commercial rounds that say so on the box or use language like 'personal protection" and "self defense".

That should be printed on the box in letters large enough for a jury to read clearly.

Strange, I thought the whole idea of shooting someone was to stop them, not be 'deadly' as in dead.

And quite a few LEO organizations uses boxes of factory loads that don't say 'for self defense' or 'personal protection'.

I have never heard of anyone being protected for using FMJ, even though it is now considered target ammo.

Deaf

 

[Barry the Bear]

As far as the Cor Bon DPX 200 load, isn't that considered a hot load and is thus incompatible with the Bulldogs?

If your not scared to shoot a few boxes of the buffalo bore offerings Im sure the corbon would be no different . Personally from the emails youve posted even with them stating its ok , I still would not shoot them in a bulldog, I have .44 magnums if i want or need more energy.