Firearm chooses

[BSA1]

Thank you for the advice on how to use the bubble-wrap feature. I knew there had to be a easier way.

 

[Kleanbore]

Watch this video


Also, remember that a shotgun need not be a 12 ga.

 

[holdencm9]

Adj. 1. terrified - thrown into a state of intense fear or desperation. BIG difference than being in fear of your life which is a legal requirement for justified use of deadly force.

Agree to disagree. I think fear for your life could just as easily BE the definition of terrified.

Very subjective based on your opinion not on facts or real life events. Remember the single mother in Oklahoma that shot and killed a intruder while on the telephone with 911. The dispatcher told her to do what she had to do to protect herself and her child. Scared yes...terrified hardly. As I recall I think it only took one shot...not your 9" group.

One anecdote does not constitute "data." And one shot does not qualify as a "group" either. I think most would agree that stress degrades proficiency. Do some people rise to the occasion? Sure. Do some just get lucky? Of course. But to assume that you will shoot just as well in the dark under pressure as you do at the range is dangerous and naive. Not subjective at all, 10 seconds of googling found this study that says specifically "police officers’ shooting performances degraded significantly when they “choked” under pressure. Similarly, Nieuwenhuys and Oudejans (2010) demonstrated that pressure and anxiety negatively affect
officers’ handgun shooting accuracy, situational awareness (increased eye blinking), and effective bodily posture." And there is a lot more data, both in published studies and anecdotal data, to also prove the point. Heck, look at the cops in NYC that took how many shots to drop one bad guy? I am sure they thought hitting COM on the silhouette target at the 7 yard range was a piece of cake. I am sure there are other high roaders that could provide links to studies that show motor skill function degrades.

You are applying your lack of training and skill in use of single and double barrel shotguns to her.

Doesn't matter what your and my choices are. We are both gun nuts and love shooting. She isn't.

Okay then. Well, best of luck to you sir. I hope you find her what you're looking for! But most of all I hope she never needs to use it. Peace.

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

Kleanbore, your link is missing the "h" in "http..."

Woody

 

[mdauben]

Well I have seen firsthand more than once the effect the sound of racking a round into the chamber of pump shotgun has (ever see a grown man lose control of his bladder)

I'm sure it may have happened but I refuse to count on it. I don't think that criminals are superhuman but many of them live in an entirely different culture that we do, and while many probably are craven and cowardly, other may well have much more real life experience with having weapons pointed at them that most of us ever will.

Your lack of confidence in your use of the shotgun is not shared by her or myself.

I assume then she regularly takes part in combat shotgun training? She fires a couple hundred round a month in practice? This is in no way intended to demean your wife, but your from you initial post I could only assume she is relativly new to firearms. Most people (and I don't excuse myself from this, either) are not really ready for life-or-death combat situations and simply lack the instruction and conditioning to deal with it. Tunnel vision, loss of fine motor control, and other physiological reactions are commonly documented in such situations so to me it just makes sense to minimize the need for them when planning for an emergency.

Also the term "terrified" when describing how my wife reacts when attracked is totally inapporiate, sexist and demeaning to women in general.

Please don't put insult in my mouth. I said nothing about cringing in fear or giving up. However, anyone who isn't terrified when faced with imminent death or serious injury (the only justification for using deadly force) is foolish.

I and others have offered what we intended as helpful and useful advice; feel free to accept or reject it but choosing to ridicule or insult our help does nothing to endear you to the THR community.

Good luck and I hope both of us never have to face a true life-or-death situation.

 

[Rail Driver]

I've followed this whole thread, and the only thing I seem to be getting from it is that the OP already knows what HE wants to get his wife, and is just looking for someone here to validate his opinion while he ridicules, discounts and argues with every other opinion offered, even though he asked for opinions.

Personally I'm done participating in this thread and I'm done following it - You can't argue with a brick wall, and that's what this has devolved into from my perspective.

BSA1 - go get her what you want - in the end it's her life that will rely on that gun in a situation, not ours. You come off like the only opinion that makes any difference in this situation is YOURS... I respectfully submit that it is HER opinion that matters, not OURS OR YOURS.

Have a nice day

*Edit to add - Anyone that thinks racking a pump shotgun is enough to make a grown man urinate on himself watches too much television.

 

[BSA1]

Cops are well documented bad shots. Very few are gun"nuts" like us. Many of them only qualify annually and then only because to keep their job. i think most members of THR can outshoot 90% of LEO's.

The term "terrified" can be used to imply that someone was so scared they reacted solely on the basis of emotion not a rational fear supported by sound legal logic.

My wife successfully fought off a mugger without being "terrified" or even being scared. She said she saw him coming and knew what his intentions were so she got angry. This incident and the incident with the teen mother in Oklahoma proves that being terrified is not always the case.

Mental attitude has a lot to do with successfully defending yourself. You candidly admit your own doubts to do so. You can fight or you can be a victim. She chose to fight and has assured me she will do so if attacked again.

You know what? I believe her! Texans are that way.

But the topic is about choosing firearms that she can shoot well with her physical limitations so let's get back on topic.

 

[BSA1]

Rail Driver,

I think You misunderstood the intent of my thread. My bad. It is only about narrowing choices. I do not mean she is or should be limited to one gun or type of gun. However, recommending that she should get a semi-automatic handgun is like trying to teach a one armed man to use a knife and fork at the same time. It just isn't going to happen. Again I am sorry you have been somehow personally offended.

I also have mentioned before the house we are moving to has three floors so that means a gun on every floor.

We got sidetrack on the emotional part about being terrified and tactics like reloading. There has been several good suggestions made. Many thanks and reasons to visit gunshops.

Over 30 years as LEO I have racked a pump shotgun more than once and even the biggest drunks knows what that sound means. And it does have a way of emptying a bladder full of beer.

 

[mortablunt]

I am puzzling at choosing a firearm for H.D. for my wife.

Normally, picking a defensive gun is something that a person best does for themselves.

NO semi-automatic handguns. She can not rack the slide on any semi-auto I have offered her. I guess she lacks the necessary hand and wrist strength. She has had carpel tunnel surgery in both of her wrists.

Strange... my mother had had the same surgery, and she is definitely strong enough to do it. I think that ought to be brought to your awareness that being unable to rack a pistol simply due to carpal tunnel surgery is quite odd. How old is she exactly and what sort of other relevant conditions does she have?

She lacks the strength to fire a j-frame revolver she currently has double action.

What?

She says she prefers the Model 10 although I am concerned about her lack of hand strength. Maybe a pencil barrel Model 10?

Her lack of hand strength is worrisome in a medical way. I'd get that checked out quickly.

Did I mention NO semi-automatic handguns?

Eeeyup.

She can handled and shoot Ruger Vaqueros just fine which is a little bit of a puzzler since she does it one handed from the back of moving horse. The problem with a single action revolver is safey decocking it under stress which leads her to state she might just as well shoot him if she has to cock it.

Now it sounds more like a general issue with coordination and strength in the hands. Highly abnormal.

Favorite shotgun is a H&R single shot shotgun 12 ga.

If she can work a break, she ought to be able to work a pump or a semiautomatic.

What are some suggestion?

Again, you seem to have some issues with spelling and grammar.

K frame revolver with a lighter tuned action by a good gunsmith?

So exactly what is the story on her hands? She can do single action revolver no problem with only one hand. She can do a break action shotgun no problem. However, she cannot do a double action trigger pull with both hands? Has she spent her whole life in handcuffs, or is she arthritic?

Cut the barrel down on the H&R for use in the home? Very affordable and that 12 ga. bore in legendary.

What are you trying to say, exactly? If you go shotgun, then get a 12 gauge pump or some 12 gauge semiautomatic.

She has short arms. How about a AR with adjustable stock and short barrel?

Define "short". I'm 5'5" and have no problems with operating even full-sized battle rifles with their stocks fixed in default configurations. I don't like the AR15. You ought to realize that short barrels rob the platform and its 5.56 bullet of performance to a disquieting degree. WAIT- your wife can't work a handgun, but she had no trouble at all with using a rifle or a shotgun? Odd...

Unfortunately it looks like I am being forced to move back into town as the bank is getting the farm so rifle caliber such as 223/308 is out of the question.

Well then, get a pistol caliber carbine or a shotgun. Hi-Point carbines are fantastic budget weapons. I have some alternatives, but I'll save those for the end.

Maybe a 9mm AR style.

You're having money troubles and you want to dump the better part of a grand on a gun, and then dump the better part of another grand on an accessory just to make the gun function as you want? And the mags for 9mm AR's are expensive. Since you're got it in the budget for an AR, then I highly recommend the Beretta Cx4 Storm as a 9mm carbine. It will serve excellently.

NO High Point. I believe in buying high quality firearms although I do not want a custom gun.

Hi-Point makes great guns that are easily affordable on any budget. Also, your prose could make do with a not insignificant amount of polish. It's just one of my pet peeves and it would help make your writing a bit more understandable.

Did I mention no semi-automatic handguns and no High Points?

You already have. The former has been said thrice and the latter now twice. Here's some other options you might want to look into. AK-74; a 5.45x39mm AK would do fantastically for everything you're describing. Plus, the surplus ammo is dirt cheap. You could get a KelTec Sub2000, which is known for quality.
Good luck!

 

[BSA1]

Kleanbore,

The video link you provided also mirrors my experience as a NRA firearms instructor and LEO range instructor.

The video also makes a case for how important it is to make your choice on the range, not the gunshop or the Internet.

Now if I can just convince her to go gun shopping with me.

 

[holdencm9]

Cops are well documented bad shots. Very few are gun"nuts" like us. Many of them only qualify annually and then only because to keep their job. i think most members of THR can outshoot 90% of LEO's.

Hmmm, probably false, or at the least exaggerated, but even if it is true, is your wife a THR member?

The term "terrified" can be used to imply that someone was so scared they reacted solely on the basis of emotion not a rational fear supported by sound legal logic.

Bold is mine. Point is, he WASN'T implying any of that. You simply inferred. Wrongly.

My wife successfully fought off a mugger without being "terrified" or even being scared. She said she saw him coming and knew what his intentions were so she got angry. This incident and the incident with the teen mother in Oklahoma proves that being terrified is not always the case.

Mental attitude has a lot to do with successfully defending yourself. You candidly admit your own doubts to do so. You can fight or you can be a victim. She chose to fight and has assured me she will do so if attacked again.

If you don't have your doubts, why bother going to the range to practice? Why bother trying to improve or maintain proficiency? Sure, confidence is important, but too much can be dangerous.

Anyway, how long ago was that? You have to forgive people for be skeptical. This is the internet after all. When things don't seem to add up, people question things. There are a lot of internet commandos out there. It is nothing personal. I personally believe you. But when you say your wife is a gun nut but won't go gun-shopping, with carpal tunnel in both wrists and can't rack a slide, but can ride a horse while shooting a revolver at the same time, and fought off a mugger? Sounds fishy. Again, I believe you, but even if we take the story at face value, you said it yourself: she SAW HIM COMING.

As I am sure you know from your LE career, most criminals are predators. Just like the leopard seeks out the weakest of the herd and tries to ambush, criminals look for targets that appear weak, and they also try to utilize the advantage of surprise. Once that mugger saw your wife wasn't easy prey, and that he had been made, he knew he better go elsewhere. You are right to be proud of your wife for refusing to be a victim, but you can't extrapolate that story to the future.

First of all, she may NOT see him coming this time. She may be asleep. People aren't always 100% when quickly roused from REM cycle. Or she may just be watching TV and they surprise her this time. Who knows. Furthermore, there may be several of them. Who says it will be just one guy? It could be three. And in addition to that, they may be armed next time. Or more desperate.

It is totally awesome your wife was so brave and steadfast when confronted by a mugger. It gives great insight about your wife's strength of character and refusal to be a victim, but does little to indicate to anyone she should have x gun vs y gun. I think you really just have to FORCE her to come shopping with you and let her pick out a gun herself that she can operate and shoot well, rather than forcing one on her. Cheers.

ETA sorry to have contributed to the sidetracking of the thread. I'll follow rail driver's lead and show myself the door. Best of luck BSA, take care.

 

[BSA1]

First of all I have no problem with you calling me a liar. In fact EVERTHING I post should be treated as a LIE UNTIL you research it yourself and prove it to be true or unless you know personally it to be true.

Hmmm, probably false, or at the least exaggerated, but even if it is true, is your wife a THR member?

In regards to how well LEO's can shoot I would suggest you either join your local police or sheriffs department as a reserve officer so you can see for yourself. You will also be doing a wonderful service to your communty.
No my wife is not a member of THR.
Quote:

If you don't have your doubts, why bother going to the range to practice?

Hmmm, how about for recreation, family time together, self improvement, empowerment, self confidence, gaining knowledge and experience with shooting different kinds and calibers of firearms..

Why bother trying to improve or maintain proficiency?

Some humans such as my wife, children and myself strive to improve ourselves. Unfortunately many Americans do not do so.

Anyway, how long ago was that?

I am not sure of your question. The attack took place in 2002. The last time she practiced shooting at the range was a month ago.

But when you say your wife is a gun nut

I never said that.

but won't go gun-shopping,

True

with carpal tunnel in both wrists and can't rack a slide,

True

but can ride a horse while shooting a revolver at the same time,

I am not sure what you are challenging;
She can't ride a horse?
She can't shoot a handgun?
She can't shoot a handgun from the back of a horse?
That it is not possible to shoot a gun off a back of a horse?
You have not heard of Cowboy Mounted Shooting?http://www.cowboymountedshooting.com/
That it is not possible for her to control a horse while shooting?
If so then you obviously have not learned how to ride a horse. Proper control of a horse is done with the legs, not with the reins and bit.
That you do not understand the difference between shooting a single action hangun with a tuned 4# trigger pull vs. a double action revolver with a 12# trigger pull vs. a semi-automatic handgun.
Or that you don't know that the single-action revolver is designed for one handed shooting?

and fought off a mugger?

The name of the felon that attacked her is Terry L. Scott, KDOC # 46163, case # 02CR2263, Attempted Agg. Robbery. The attack took place in 2002 and he is currently incarcerated in the Wichita Work Release Center, Wichita, KS.
http://165.201.143.205/kasper2/offender.asp?id=17363

You are right to be proud of your wife for refusing to be a victim, but you can't extrapolate that story to the future.

I believe past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior. Also you must not be aware of the flight or fight reaction when someone is attacked. You seem to have convinced yourself the proper response is flight.

First of all, she may NOT see him coming this time. She may be asleep. People aren't always 100% when quickly roused from REM cycle. Or she may just be watching TV and they surprise her this time. Who knows. Furthermore, there may be several of them. Who says it will be just one guy? It could be three. And in addition to that, they may be armed next time. Or more desperate.

All the more reason to have more than one gun and watch dogs

It is totally awesome your wife was so brave and steadfast when confronted by a mugger. It gives great insight about your wife's strength of character and refusal to be a victim, but does little to indicate to anyone she should have x gun vs y gun.

I agree but I am continuing to humor your off-track posts.

I think you really just have to FORCE her to come shopping with you and let her pick out a gun herself that she can operate and shoot well, rather than forcing one on her.

You don't FORCE this little, tough Texas lady into doing anything.

 

[Al Thompson]

One resource I didn't see mentioned:

www.corneredcat.com

 

[BSA1]

Kleanbore and Al Thompson,

Thank you both for the excellent video links.

I think if the title of "The Cornered Cat" was changed to something more macho men would be receptive to the advice. As a civilian my personal choice is too retreat as much as possible (much cheaper that defending myself in a criminal trial or civil lawsuit) and to fight (use deadly force) only when when it is my last resort.

Oh holdencm9 and Rail Driver both of you will be GREATLY RELIEVED that my wife went to a well stocked gunshop yestersday. At my SUGGESTION she handled DPMS, COLT and S&W AR's. THE GUNSHOP OWNER WAS VERY HELPFUL AND OFFERED ADVICE AND OPTIONS TO HER.

Since I know both of you remain opposed to my participation in helping her choose a firearm for self-defense I would like to know if having the male gunshop owner show her firearms and offer her advice and options was a good idea or it it just attempt on my part to force my opinions on her?

 

[hso]

She needs to go to the range and pick what she likes instead of trying to give something to her you aren't sure of. It is probably best if she goes without you so she's not deferring her choices for yours.

She'll pick what works for her and she'll be able to operate it. She's smart enough.

 

[mgkdrgn]

Nothing trumps a 12g shotgun for HD. Nothing.

I'd prefer a double over a single, and a semi-auto/pump over a double.

Reduced recoil buckshot will be the load of choice.

 

[BSA1]

The problem is there is not shooting range where we live that she can rent a AR and any other long gun and shotgun.

This thread resulted in it going way off track even with me being called a liar. Clearly the real lifestyle and experiences of my wife and I are unbelievable to some members of THR.

Her favorite firearm is the H&R single shot shotgun that currently stands guard by our front door. Since that is what both my wife and gun salesman daughter (oops...another unbelievable story about the women in my family) like the best another one upstairs would be the most likely gun they will use first.

I think I will upgrade my pack of watchdogs to include a larger one with bigger teeth.

I think it is time for me to drop the entire issue all together with this forum.

Moderator please put this thread to bed.

 

[Lee D]

60 pro series...round butt and a 3" bbl w/ trijicon front sight. i added the pachmayr grip to cover the exposed backstrap and can shoot full bore .357s all afternoon without beating up my poor hands.

my 12 yr old daughter, who is a teeny tiny thing, loves this revolver when loaded with .38s




Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

[Al Thompson]

Per the OP's request, good night Irene.