ojibweindian
Member
For deer, black bear, and elk, I'd go with a Swede. The 6.5x55 has plenty of steam to handle elk at 250 or so yards with an appropriate bullet weight (e.g. 140 grain or higher).
First Hunting Rifle: 6.5X55 Swede, .270, or. 308/7.62x39 Russian
- Thread starter CCBPES34
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No..it can't fire a .308 Winchester, the 7.62x39 is completely and utterly different, and it would be horribly inaccurate trying to fire .308 caliber bullets in it.
Ruger has a new Scout Rifle in .308 Winchester.
I doubt many self respecting Scout rifles would come in a long chamber cartridge like .270. Why do you want a Scout rifle?
Ruger has a new Scout Rifle in .308 Winchester.
I doubt many self respecting Scout rifles would come in a long chamber cartridge like .270. Why do you want a Scout rifle?
Cal-gun Fan
Member
308 is on the left, 762x39 on the right:
You couldn't even fire a 308 out of a 762x39 rifle.
Where I hunt is Mountain/Backcountry terrain. Rifles that weigh 8+ pounds are a pain to carry. Most Black Bear Hunters here carry Lightweight 20g Autoloaders for that reason. A Scout-Type rifle would be nice, but it's not a must. I'd just prefer one.
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I was looking at the Tikka T3 Battue. It seems like would fit most of my needs. I haven't looked at the Winchester. The Ruger still weighs 6.5 pounds without a scope. I'm really leaning towards the Tikka. How much does the Battue cost on average, for some reason Tikka doesn't put prices on their Website.
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txhoghunter
Member
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- Nov 8, 2010
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CCBPES34.....no, the 7.62x39 and the .308 win (7.62x51 NATO) are not the same and are not interchangeable.
No, do NOT fire a .308 win round in a rifle chambered for 7.62x39
No, do NOT fire a .308 win round in a rifle chambered for 7.62x39
Does anyone make anything similar to the Battue?
Maverick223
Member
Welcome to THR, CCBPES34!
Between the two listed the 6.5x55mmSwede is your best bet. The .270Win. has comparable recoil (slightly more in most cases) to the .308Win. The 7.62x39mm is a decent cartridge but not the best for hunting in many circumstances (practical range is limited and good hunting cartridges are difficult to find and somewhat costly). The .308Win. is an alright cartridge (admittedly far from my favorite chambering, but it should suit your needs fairly well), but then again you have a fair amount of recoil. That said it is easily manageable for most folks with a bit of practice...same story for the .270Win.
All that having been said, the 6.5x55mm, as capable as it is, and as little recoil as it has, isn't the most common cartridge to find in local stores here in the US. If you plan to take up handloading, it is a dandy, but my advice is to take it one step at a time...take up handloading after you get some rounds down range and become a proficient shooter. Instead, I would opt for a cartridge that is on the heels of the 6.5x55mmSwede, affords just as light of recoil, and has the power required to harvest any game species up to Elk with precise marksmanship (though I would prefer something a bit heavier for this purpose). That cartridge is the 7mm-08Rem. It would make for an outstanding starter cartridge, and would make an excellent primary deer rifle. Later on you can always add a .30-06Spd. or the like for a primary Elk rifle.
Another option, if you plan to hunt Elk in the near future, and/or if it will be a frequent quarry you could purchase a .30-06Spd. or .270Win. now and simply use "low recoil" loads for it until you are comfortable with the heavier loads (which are downloaded to reduce recoil). These loads are adequate for deer, but the full power fodder would be recommended for Elk and such.
Between the two listed the 6.5x55mmSwede is your best bet. The .270Win. has comparable recoil (slightly more in most cases) to the .308Win. The 7.62x39mm is a decent cartridge but not the best for hunting in many circumstances (practical range is limited and good hunting cartridges are difficult to find and somewhat costly). The .308Win. is an alright cartridge (admittedly far from my favorite chambering, but it should suit your needs fairly well), but then again you have a fair amount of recoil. That said it is easily manageable for most folks with a bit of practice...same story for the .270Win.
All that having been said, the 6.5x55mm, as capable as it is, and as little recoil as it has, isn't the most common cartridge to find in local stores here in the US. If you plan to take up handloading, it is a dandy, but my advice is to take it one step at a time...take up handloading after you get some rounds down range and become a proficient shooter. Instead, I would opt for a cartridge that is on the heels of the 6.5x55mmSwede, affords just as light of recoil, and has the power required to harvest any game species up to Elk with precise marksmanship (though I would prefer something a bit heavier for this purpose). That cartridge is the 7mm-08Rem. It would make for an outstanding starter cartridge, and would make an excellent primary deer rifle. Later on you can always add a .30-06Spd. or the like for a primary Elk rifle.
Another option, if you plan to hunt Elk in the near future, and/or if it will be a frequent quarry you could purchase a .30-06Spd. or .270Win. now and simply use "low recoil" loads for it until you are comfortable with the heavier loads (which are downloaded to reduce recoil). These loads are adequate for deer, but the full power fodder would be recommended for Elk and such.
PedalBiker
Member
I'd take the .270. Remington makes reduced recoil loads that put it on par with a .243.
As for Western hunting I can only speak for Colorado, but .243 is the minimum for elk here, with an 85 grain expanding bullet. (It's on page 6 of the 2011 Big Game brochure.) edit: { I'm pretty sure even the reduced recoil .270 ammo would qualify for elk in Colorado }
So, for Colorado, a 6.5x 55 is good to go for elk, certainly for cows by any measure and you'll probably hear both way for bull elk. It would not be my first choice, but I find .30-06 to be tolerable.
As for Western hunting I can only speak for Colorado, but .243 is the minimum for elk here, with an 85 grain expanding bullet. (It's on page 6 of the 2011 Big Game brochure.) edit: { I'm pretty sure even the reduced recoil .270 ammo would qualify for elk in Colorado }
So, for Colorado, a 6.5x 55 is good to go for elk, certainly for cows by any measure and you'll probably hear both way for bull elk. It would not be my first choice, but I find .30-06 to be tolerable.
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Maverick223
Member
It may be legal, but I sure wouldn't want that cartridge in my chamber if I were staring down a large bull elk. I think i'd be forgetting all about recoil and thinking about wanting a whole lot more cartridge. FWIW i'd rather have the 6.5x55mmSwede by a mile...and have to agree that it wouldn't be my first choice either (for large elk).
1stmarine
Member
The 7.62x39 is out. it is actually a .310 caliber and not .308.
It is a carbine military round and falls to the ground after 250 yards due to the horrible ballistics of low grain .30 caliber bullets. It will take care of the deer within the 200 yards range though.
The Swedish why bother? 260 Remington is a necked down .308 winchester case. the other way around the .338 federal is a necked up .308 win. case.
Get a .308 winchester or .30.06 and be done. If you don't get one of these then get one that is based on these military cases like the 270 winchester. That is an awesome powerful flat shooting round but you will be reloading or paying more in advance.
The best bullets departments are in the 224, 6mm, 6.5, 7mm, 308 and 338. being the .224, 6mm and .308 the most diverse and popular. These calibers combined with military based cases are the most popular and affordable in the end of the day. 243 winchester, .308 winchester and 30.06 being the most popular with frequent discounts in big outdoors stores and other retail locations.
This w/o counting the availabilty of good quality .308 winchester surplus and new fmjs for good price. Also cheap and forgiving to reload all of those casings.
Pickup a couple of good bullets for the purpose and then choose a good case and a good system that can deliver those bullets.
Cheers.
E.
It is a carbine military round and falls to the ground after 250 yards due to the horrible ballistics of low grain .30 caliber bullets. It will take care of the deer within the 200 yards range though.
The Swedish why bother? 260 Remington is a necked down .308 winchester case. the other way around the .338 federal is a necked up .308 win. case.
Get a .308 winchester or .30.06 and be done. If you don't get one of these then get one that is based on these military cases like the 270 winchester. That is an awesome powerful flat shooting round but you will be reloading or paying more in advance.
The best bullets departments are in the 224, 6mm, 6.5, 7mm, 308 and 338. being the .224, 6mm and .308 the most diverse and popular. These calibers combined with military based cases are the most popular and affordable in the end of the day. 243 winchester, .308 winchester and 30.06 being the most popular with frequent discounts in big outdoors stores and other retail locations.
This w/o counting the availabilty of good quality .308 winchester surplus and new fmjs for good price. Also cheap and forgiving to reload all of those casings.
Pickup a couple of good bullets for the purpose and then choose a good case and a good system that can deliver those bullets.
Cheers.
E.
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armoredman
Member
Greeting, sir, I am the oddball here - I have the CZ 527M, and love it. Great little light rifle. If you don't hand-load, it's not going to be the bargain for you, because 7.62x39mm hunting loads are not as common as the cheap surplus or Wolf bulk ammo. I load and cast for mine, and think it's a great emergency style rifle, but bear medicine it is not. I imagine it would work on a bear, as bear have been dropped with handguns many times before, but in a bolt action rifle I might suggest something a bit stouter. The 7.62x39mm can be loaded for elk, I have been told, but I have zero hunting experience, much less hunting experience with that caliber.
http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-550-fs/
This might be more in line with what you're looking for. Solid CZ workmanship, iron backup sights, available in the 6.5, .270 and 308, detachable magazine. 7.2 pounds isn't too much, I think.
Umm, Marine, I don't like arguing with Uncle Sams' finest, at least not unless it's in Club Farragut with a belly full of beer in the both us of, (MANY years ago), but the 7.62x39mm in the right rifle, not with junk ammo, can be reasonably accurate. I haven't gotten it out to 300 yards yet, just 200, but I hope to get some good shots there, we'll see.
As for 30-06, great does-everything round, and this would be a great choice, light and rugged.
http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/550CarbineKevlar/
http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-550-fs/
This might be more in line with what you're looking for. Solid CZ workmanship, iron backup sights, available in the 6.5, .270 and 308, detachable magazine. 7.2 pounds isn't too much, I think.
Umm, Marine, I don't like arguing with Uncle Sams' finest, at least not unless it's in Club Farragut with a belly full of beer in the both us of, (MANY years ago), but the 7.62x39mm in the right rifle, not with junk ammo, can be reasonably accurate. I haven't gotten it out to 300 yards yet, just 200, but I hope to get some good shots there, we'll see.
As for 30-06, great does-everything round, and this would be a great choice, light and rugged.
http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/550CarbineKevlar/
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Kachok
Member
Of the 20 or so rifles I have owned my Tikka T3 in 6.5x55 is by far my favorite rifle of all time, sissy kicker recoil, exceptional accuracy, and DRT terminal performance. I have owned a couple of 270s as well, nothing on earth wrong with them either, if you buy ammo at wal-mart I'd go with the 270, if you think you want to handload go with the Sweed. Any respectable gun store should have a varity of 6.5 Sweed ammo, Prvi 139gr SPs is my fav factory ammo and it is dirt cheap too. ($13 a box last time I bought) The 308 is in between the 270 and 6.5x55, my only beef with them is that most 30cal bullets are designed for 06 speeds which are a little higher. 7.62x39 is just too darn slow to top my list, and most factory ammo is lower quality then the others.
Fullboar1
Member
If you are not going to handload I would look at the 6.5x55 or 308, but if you are going to handload I would look at the 260rem (it offers pretty much the same ballistics as the 6.5x55 but in a short action). I think for the money you cant go past the Tikka T3 Lite Stainless/Synthetic. The Tikka's are made by Sako (who are owned and imported by Beretta) and have an accuracy guarantee to shot 1" (Sub MOA) 3 shot groups with "ANY" factory so using match grade or handloaded ammo you should be able to cut those groups in half. The Tikka has one of the best triggers on any factory production rifle on the market and IMO is as good as most performance aftermarket triggers. I like the Stainless/Synthetic rifle for hunting in wet conditions like snow and rain.
1stmarine
Member
I agree with fullboar1, the 260rem is even a tad superior and is a necked down from a military case the .308 winchester.
In case you want to consider the 308win this is a good system I posted here...
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=586536
Cheers,
E.
In case you want to consider the 308win this is a good system I posted here...
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=586536
Cheers,
E.
Given the choices, it is not that hard of a decision for me. I would choose the CZ 550 in 6.5X55. All three caliber choices would be good choices, but the CZ 550 is a much better rifle than the other two, in my opinion.
Don't let anyone tell you that the other two calibers are better choices for elk. It's simply not true. The 6.5X55 is plenty good for elk.
Don't let anyone tell you that the other two calibers are better choices for elk. It's simply not true. The 6.5X55 is plenty good for elk.
Based on description (Recoil, family-shoot, good for up to Bear/Elk, and accurate), we're pretty much describing EVERYONE'S experience with the 6.5x55. Plus, learning to reload can be a very fun experience!
.270 HAS been known to have sturdier recoil than most would expect for a smaller bullet. Many have said it's only slightly under .30-06, which for recoil-sensitive shooters, is a bit much.
.308, despite its small size, is actually only slightly less than .30-06 in recoil. Mostly a "Snappy" round, rather than a "push". It IS very common, however.
7.62x39, as stated, is good for two-legged varmint hunting, and coyotes, maybe small deer. Not that it's not accurate, rather it's a lighter-hitting round, with less-than-long-range ballistics.
As for a Scout Rifle - they are handy, being small, but if you want a WELL DONE scout rifle, expect to pay a premium (compared to other similar-performing rifles) due to its "Status" as a Scout Rifle (Savage Scout, Ruger GSR, Steyr *wince* Scout).
Also, if you're new to rifles, I don't recommend one. It was once stated that it was intended for "experienced rifleman", due to its more unique methods of operation (ching-sling use, LER scope/shooting with both eyes open, handling a rifle prone to recoil and muzzle-lift due to short length). This isn't to say normal shooters can't use it, but generally, you need to be familiar with rifle marksmanship to really extract it's benefits
Also, it's light weight and short barrel make for more muzzle blast, which for some who are recoil-sensitive, can impress as a "harder recoil".
The 7mm-08 is another good round, lower recoil, but EXPENSIVE to shoot, unless you reload. Short of Privi Parizan, you won't find boxes of ammo under $28-30. At least in my experience.
.270 HAS been known to have sturdier recoil than most would expect for a smaller bullet. Many have said it's only slightly under .30-06, which for recoil-sensitive shooters, is a bit much.
.308, despite its small size, is actually only slightly less than .30-06 in recoil. Mostly a "Snappy" round, rather than a "push". It IS very common, however.
7.62x39, as stated, is good for two-legged varmint hunting, and coyotes, maybe small deer. Not that it's not accurate, rather it's a lighter-hitting round, with less-than-long-range ballistics.
As for a Scout Rifle - they are handy, being small, but if you want a WELL DONE scout rifle, expect to pay a premium (compared to other similar-performing rifles) due to its "Status" as a Scout Rifle (Savage Scout, Ruger GSR, Steyr *wince* Scout).
Also, if you're new to rifles, I don't recommend one. It was once stated that it was intended for "experienced rifleman", due to its more unique methods of operation (ching-sling use, LER scope/shooting with both eyes open, handling a rifle prone to recoil and muzzle-lift due to short length). This isn't to say normal shooters can't use it, but generally, you need to be familiar with rifle marksmanship to really extract it's benefits
Also, it's light weight and short barrel make for more muzzle blast, which for some who are recoil-sensitive, can impress as a "harder recoil".
The 7mm-08 is another good round, lower recoil, but EXPENSIVE to shoot, unless you reload. Short of Privi Parizan, you won't find boxes of ammo under $28-30. At least in my experience.
Pistol Ranch
Member
My vote is for the 6.5X55 Swede..I would go with the Winchester Featherweight Mod 70.
The idea of a scout rifle would be way down on my list...
P.R.
The idea of a scout rifle would be way down on my list...
P.R.
Between the CZ 527, 550, and Tikka, I'd look into the Tikka. In 6.5x55, I've NEVER heard a complaint. They have a 60-degree bolt lift (keeps untrained hands from bumping the scope during bolt-racking), which is actually quite easy to work, and is amongst the smoothest operations you'll get hands on. They have a covered top, so water/weather getting into the action is less likely, and they can still be top-fed individual rounds. They're known to be "insect-varmint-hunters", i.e. will pry flies off of a deer's behind with their accuracy. In stainless, the Tikka is virtually weatherproof, something the Winchester(wood-stocked) and CZ's can't boast.
Also, for newer-shooters, and young kids, a Push-feed design is ideal, as they automate the ejection, and loading is just push-it-forward. CRF(Controlled-Round Feeding - Winch/CZ) requires a sharper yank on the bolt pullback to eject a round properly, failure to do this CAN result in an empty shell left in the receiver. Plus, CRF chambering SHOULD be done from the magazine, otherwise it pounds the extractor trying to fit over the rim of the case. Early/new shooters may miss this detail, easy as it sounds (seen it, had to explain it).
Reasons for no-CZ: The 550 American is somewhat bulky, and definitely heavy. 8lbs unscoped, from factory. Add ammo and scope, and it's some weight to carry. Not to say it's not accurate or shoddy, though. The 527 is a VERY accurate gun, renowned in Europe for winning rifle competitions, and is lightweight. However, the "Micro" mauser action restricts it to calibers that really aren't suited to hunting black-bear and elk without some SERIOUS shooting and hunting skill.
Last note: as much as the winchester is commonly recommended 6.5x55, I honestly rarely ever see them for sale, and last I knew, it's not a standard caliber in their 2011 lineup of rifles. However, that's not to say you won't find one
re: .260 Rem (AKA 6.5x51mm American) - EXCELLENT caliber, for reloaders is very handy since it can be made from necked-down .308 brass (common as cockroaches). However, for target-practice and general shooting (when you don't want to be spending $40 a box on ammo), short of online orders, it's hard to find a decent range of factory ammo at most gunstores, if any. If you get into reloading, well, get some 7mm-08 shells and neck them down if you can't find .260Rem cases. It can nearly rival the 6.5x55 in ballistics (some say it does, the only difference is absolute case-capacity).
Also, for newer-shooters, and young kids, a Push-feed design is ideal, as they automate the ejection, and loading is just push-it-forward. CRF(Controlled-Round Feeding - Winch/CZ) requires a sharper yank on the bolt pullback to eject a round properly, failure to do this CAN result in an empty shell left in the receiver. Plus, CRF chambering SHOULD be done from the magazine, otherwise it pounds the extractor trying to fit over the rim of the case. Early/new shooters may miss this detail, easy as it sounds (seen it, had to explain it).
Reasons for no-CZ: The 550 American is somewhat bulky, and definitely heavy. 8lbs unscoped, from factory. Add ammo and scope, and it's some weight to carry. Not to say it's not accurate or shoddy, though. The 527 is a VERY accurate gun, renowned in Europe for winning rifle competitions, and is lightweight. However, the "Micro" mauser action restricts it to calibers that really aren't suited to hunting black-bear and elk without some SERIOUS shooting and hunting skill.
Last note: as much as the winchester is commonly recommended 6.5x55, I honestly rarely ever see them for sale, and last I knew, it's not a standard caliber in their 2011 lineup of rifles. However, that's not to say you won't find one
re: .260 Rem (AKA 6.5x51mm American
) - EXCELLENT caliber, for reloaders is very handy since it can be made from necked-down .308 brass (common as cockroaches). However, for target-practice and general shooting (when you don't want to be spending $40 a box on ammo), short of online orders, it's hard to find a decent range of factory ammo at most gunstores, if any. If you get into reloading, well, get some 7mm-08 shells and neck them down if you can't find .260Rem cases. It can nearly rival the 6.5x55 in ballistics (some say it does, the only difference is absolute case-capacity).
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unwise11
Member
Nothing in this thread will take an elk like a 30-06 with 180 grain slugs.
35 Whelen
Member
I own or have owned rifles in all three calibers. I still own a 6.5x55 and love it, but it would be my last choice simply because of ammunition availability. Using the Swede on elk would require premium bullets and that's something you rarely see on store shelves.
I use a 308 alot, in a Scout rifle in fact, but on deer and hogs. Savage still makes a Scout in 308. I'd steer WAY clear of the Ruger Scout rifles because I understand the have 16 1/2" barrels. I cannot imagine the muzzle blast from a barrel so short. I'm sure it'd be deafening.
I doubt there'd be a nickels worth of difference in the field in the 270 and 308. People yammer on and on about trajectory and wind drift drift, but the real world difference is negligible.
My recommendation would be the 270 for a full length hunting rifle, the 308 if you decide on a Scout rifle.
Good luck,
35W
I use a 308 alot, in a Scout rifle in fact, but on deer and hogs. Savage still makes a Scout in 308. I'd steer WAY clear of the Ruger Scout rifles because I understand the have 16 1/2" barrels. I cannot imagine the muzzle blast from a barrel so short. I'm sure it'd be deafening.
I doubt there'd be a nickels worth of difference in the field in the 270 and 308. People yammer on and on about trajectory and wind drift drift, but the real world difference is negligible.
My recommendation would be the 270 for a full length hunting rifle, the 308 if you decide on a Scout rifle.
Good luck,
35W
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