As ignorant as this may potentially sound, I've been doing some reading up on this lately and that is actually where my curiosioty stems from. I know that JHP is the by far more commonly accepted self defense round, but why? It's penetration capabilities have been proven to be inadequate in many instances with many different brands of ammunition; the so called temporary wound channel or stretch channel has been proven to be basically worthless in terms of actually producing any real damage on living tissue, and even though many expanding bullets may increase to twice their original size, the permanent wound channel they create is often smaller than the actual unexpanded diameter of the bullet, due to the elasticity of tissue/ballistics gelatin. So where exactly is their advantage over FMJ? In particular I am interested in flat point FMJ or wadcutters because it seems like the sharp edges of the round would be more efficent at cutting and displacing tissue than a regular smooth round nose bullet. So can someone please explain to me why I should choose a JHP over an FMJ for a defensive load? (excluding the possibility of overpenetration for this argument- given the statistics of percentages of actual hits during a stressful situation, I would think that missed shots present a much greater danger to standerbys than any overpenetration anyways)
FMJ vs JHP for self defense
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Kachok
Member
Most high quality JHPs will penatrate 14+" Rem Gold Saber, Carbon JHPs, Winchester SXT among others. FMJs expend the majority of their energy on the far side of the target which is not only highly inefficient but dangerous to anyone behind the target.
that 14 inches is under ideal conditions though; for example encountering clothing, bone, light cover, and arm, or entering the body at an angle may prevent the round from striking any vital organs, as has been proven in many law enforcement shootouts.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Nobody said you only get one shot!
rc
do you want to risk overpenatration when youre picking your daughter up from elementary school and it hits the fan in the parking lot? ill use the hollow points there is still a chance it can overpenetrate but a lot less risk of it. and im not going to change ammo in and out of my gun all the time.
god forbid any of us end up in that situation.
god forbid any of us end up in that situation.
Lonestar49
Member
FMJ vs JHP over time or stats
Not flamed, but supported by facts..
Take all the wars.. FMJ
Take modern day Gang shootings, crime shootings by the BG's and they don't stock up on the expensive JHP's but shoot, IMHO, namely FMJ of whatever it is they can afford or stock up with.. vs
Take LEA's and other than SWAT rifle/use, most, if not all, LEA's use JHP's in handguns along with have far less OIS's w/death or injury resulting vs badlands public sector shooting deaths. The same, most likely, can be said of those civilian SD/HD shootings of GG vs BG also use JHP's when they prep their guns for real-time duty vs the badlands BG's where the odds of a GG ever using his gun vs BG's shooting each other, rivals, just for the kick of shooting someone, boozed up or drugged up and start shooting, etc. There's just more FMJ flying around day or night by the irresponsible vs the JHP's of the trained a/o responsible..
OMMV
Ls
...
Not flamed, but supported by facts..
Take all the wars.. FMJ
Take modern day Gang shootings, crime shootings by the BG's and they don't stock up on the expensive JHP's but shoot, IMHO, namely FMJ of whatever it is they can afford or stock up with.. vs
Take LEA's and other than SWAT rifle/use, most, if not all, LEA's use JHP's in handguns along with have far less OIS's w/death or injury resulting vs badlands public sector shooting deaths. The same, most likely, can be said of those civilian SD/HD shootings of GG vs BG also use JHP's when they prep their guns for real-time duty vs the badlands BG's where the odds of a GG ever using his gun vs BG's shooting each other, rivals, just for the kick of shooting someone, boozed up or drugged up and start shooting, etc. There's just more FMJ flying around day or night by the irresponsible vs the JHP's of the trained a/o responsible..
OMMV
Ls
FMJ vs JHP
I'm not sure I would be so flippant concerning over penetration as you will be responsible for that round (fourth rule of gun safety).
Errant rounds are another issue and one is responsible to HIT what your shooting at (shot placement).
Shot placement is always the MOST important thing as one can kill a grizzly with a 22 if the shot placement is adequate.
Most data available have always generalized that an expanding bullet seems to improve outcomes with marginal calibers 380 etc. No one ever said that a FMJ couldn't get the job done in 45ACP. 9mm has always been an issue until expanding bullets brought it up to the 45FMJ standards.
It is and always will be about SHOT PLACEMENT. All things being equal, if I can do that and avoid the over penetration issue it's kind of a no brainer.
I'm not sure I would be so flippant concerning over penetration as you will be responsible for that round (fourth rule of gun safety).
Errant rounds are another issue and one is responsible to HIT what your shooting at (shot placement).
Shot placement is always the MOST important thing as one can kill a grizzly with a 22 if the shot placement is adequate.
Most data available have always generalized that an expanding bullet seems to improve outcomes with marginal calibers 380 etc. No one ever said that a FMJ couldn't get the job done in 45ACP. 9mm has always been an issue until expanding bullets brought it up to the 45FMJ standards.
It is and always will be about SHOT PLACEMENT. All things being equal, if I can do that and avoid the over penetration issue it's kind of a no brainer.
X-Rap
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Take a look at many game departments across the country, all of them that I am aware of require expanding bullets for big game hunting and expessly forbid FMJ. SP or HP the intent is expansion with the resulting kill being more humane. I am pretty sure that same reasoning transfers to SD.
Flat nose FMJ is no more effective than round nose. It doesn't cut, it isn't sharp, and even the wadcutters many revolver shooters advocate for a nice sharp projectile, are not cast out of hard enough alloy, so the sharp edges round off when they hit tissue and they don't end up cutting a caliber-diameter hole all the way through the wound channel.
FMJ bullets are the ones that leave wound channels smaller than the actual bullet, not expanded JHP, and expanded JHP bullets often have profiles that are not as easy for a tissue to safely stretch around as a cohesive solid bullet. They still don't punch a hole exactly the same shape and size as the bullet through the whole wound channel, but they do create more significant wounds than FMJ bullets will.
According to many rappers JHP is actually pretty highly sought after by people who murder people as an occasional part of their chosen profession. Personally I think they probably just stick with whatever ammunition they got when they stole the gun in the first place.
Yeah, FMJ bullets have killed more people than any other kind, but last I checked even in Southern California our cops aren't creating World-War class body counts, and won't for the next few hundred years. Maybe few thousand.
The idea that 9mm JHP is only as good as .45 FMJ is ridiculous. 9mm and .45 FMJ bullets are not significantly different in wounding capability, and neither are JHP bullets in the same two calibers. They are all service-caliber pistol cartridges, it's not like the difference between 3" .357 Magnum and an 8 3/8" .454 Casull on large game. They are essentially identical in performance on target, the biggest differences are in shooting characteristics, weapons platforms, and one has an entirely overblown reputation.
Copied straight from some anonymous source on the ever reliable internet:
"...Hollowpoint ammunition is NOT more lethal than ball (full metal jacket) ammunition. You may have seen media hype about "killer dum-dum bullets" but this is nonsense. Hollowpoint bullets usually expand and stop in the human body, and thus the attacker absorbs much more of the bullet's kinetic energy than if the bullet had merely zipped through him and left two small holes. Hollowpoint ammunition is also safer for all parties concerned.
* You are safer because your attacker is more likely to be incapacitated after one or two shots and thus unable to fire back, stab you, or whatever. The decreased likelihood of your attacker dying from hollowpoint bullets saves you the moral and legal complications and expense you will experience from killing a man.
* Innocent bystanders are safer because hollowpoint bullets are less likely to exit the attacker's body and go on to injure anyone else. The ricochet danger is also much lower than that of ball ammunition, and hollowpoint bullets are less likely to penetrate walls or doors and strike uninvolved third parties. Furthermore, if your foe is incapacitated quickly he won't be spraying wild bullets around, endangering uninvolved third parties.
* Lastly, your attacker is safer because he is far less likely to die from one or two hollowpoint bullets than the five or six round-nose slugs you would have had to fire to put him down. Most gunshot deaths occur from shock and loss of blood, and ball rounds tend to make entry and exit wounds, whereas hollowpoints go in and stay put. An attacker shot twice with ball ammo will probably have four holes in him rather than two, and is thus in far greater danger of death from blood loss. If you can avoid killing your attacker you should, for both moral and legal reasons...."
"...Hollowpoint ammunition is NOT more lethal than ball (full metal jacket) ammunition. You may have seen media hype about "killer dum-dum bullets" but this is nonsense. Hollowpoint bullets usually expand and stop in the human body, and thus the attacker absorbs much more of the bullet's kinetic energy than if the bullet had merely zipped through him and left two small holes. Hollowpoint ammunition is also safer for all parties concerned.
* You are safer because your attacker is more likely to be incapacitated after one or two shots and thus unable to fire back, stab you, or whatever. The decreased likelihood of your attacker dying from hollowpoint bullets saves you the moral and legal complications and expense you will experience from killing a man.
* Innocent bystanders are safer because hollowpoint bullets are less likely to exit the attacker's body and go on to injure anyone else. The ricochet danger is also much lower than that of ball ammunition, and hollowpoint bullets are less likely to penetrate walls or doors and strike uninvolved third parties. Furthermore, if your foe is incapacitated quickly he won't be spraying wild bullets around, endangering uninvolved third parties.
* Lastly, your attacker is safer because he is far less likely to die from one or two hollowpoint bullets than the five or six round-nose slugs you would have had to fire to put him down. Most gunshot deaths occur from shock and loss of blood, and ball rounds tend to make entry and exit wounds, whereas hollowpoints go in and stay put. An attacker shot twice with ball ammo will probably have four holes in him rather than two, and is thus in far greater danger of death from blood loss. If you can avoid killing your attacker you should, for both moral and legal reasons...."
MCgunner
Member
Use an adequate caliber and penetration is not a problem WITH expansion. Use a .32, well.......
I'd still carry expanding bullets even in a .32. But, I prefer 9x19 and up.
I'd still carry expanding bullets even in a .32. But, I prefer 9x19 and up.
How daring of you, sir!
JHP for me. All the way down to .380. 918v's picture really says it all. I did a ballistic gel test with some DPX and after seeing the perfectly "blossomed" petals I was convinced. That extra 1/4" of diameter may be what knicks the heart or spine and stops the attack.
Vern Humphrey
Member
You've lumped several sets of conditions together. Clothing, light cover and so on tend to plug hollowpoints and make them act like FMJs -- which leaves you no worse off than if you had loaded with FMJs in the first place.
Entering the body at an angle and missing vital organs would be a failure to stop no matter what you used.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
I think I'd be more concerned with missing than with overpenetration. If you miss, and the bullet skips off down the lane and hits poor old Aunt Rhody two blocks away headed into the VFW's Saturday Night Bingo game...it won't matter much.
Yeah...I know. We practice and become proficient so we won't miss...but when somebody's shootin' back, the whole game changes.
Yeah...I know. We practice and become proficient so we won't miss...but when somebody's shootin' back, the whole game changes.
entering the body at an angle and missing wasn't the point I wished to address, I apologise if I phrased it in an ambiguous manner. The issue I was concerned with was in a situation where a JHP round may not enter the body via a perfect frontal COM hit, but rather at an angle where the distance required to impact any vitals is greater, and therefore not have enough penetration to actually reach them. This seems to be a recurring theme in FBI and law enforcement reports.
You can land hits from a great variety of angles and odd directions and still hit something vital after 12", unless the shot is just not good enough. I know we've got some pretty big people nowadays, but my torso isn't much more than 12-16" across and probably eight to ten deep. Don't have the tape out, I'm just estimating.
Nobody said you had to stop after one.
Nobody said you had to stop after one.
Yeah I am about the same, unless I am puffing my chest out
I know there are some pretty big guys out there, but 12" penetration should be adequate unless someone has a 60" chest measurement. And even then, I think some hollowpoints to his COM will do the trick. I think FBI guidelines are a good baseline but their needs are not the same as average citizen. I do like thinking about the whatifs though. Like what if the bad guy is grossly obese and you need 20" of penetration just to reach his vitals, or if the bad guy is jacked up on a coke/speed/meth combo and feels no pain. Or if he has body armor. Or he is shooting at you with a school full of children right behind him. Can't plan for every contingency. Just have to assess and manage/mitigate risks to the best of your abilities.
Ragnar Danneskjold
Member
Does the addition of more layers of body fat (something more and more common these days) and perhaps thick winter clothing affect the penetration of JHP rounds?
I've heard it postulated that alternating FMJ and JHP could be beneficial. Since it is common (and smart) to train with "controlled pairs", where each instance of firing at a BG is firing two rounds, not just one; that would give you one round that has more penetration and one round that has more expansion for each time you fire.
Has there ever been a test, on Box of Truth or through more official means, that tests penetration on subjects with a lot more body fat and thicker clothes. I live in Michigan, which is one of the most obese states and it also gets very cold. I would think the penetration you would get on an in-shape person in the summer would not be the same as an overweight person with a thick winter jacket and multiple shirt layers.
I've heard it postulated that alternating FMJ and JHP could be beneficial. Since it is common (and smart) to train with "controlled pairs", where each instance of firing at a BG is firing two rounds, not just one; that would give you one round that has more penetration and one round that has more expansion for each time you fire.
Has there ever been a test, on Box of Truth or through more official means, that tests penetration on subjects with a lot more body fat and thicker clothes. I live in Michigan, which is one of the most obese states and it also gets very cold. I would think the penetration you would get on an in-shape person in the summer would not be the same as an overweight person with a thick winter jacket and multiple shirt layers.
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Kachok
Member
The important thing to remember is that under poor conditions (lack of expansion) the JHP will perform at leased as well as a FMJ. No situation exists in which an FMJ will outperform a quality JHP. To my knowlage every single LE agency in the USA uses JHPs for this reason.
Ragnar Danneskjold
Member
Poor conditions are not only lack of expansion, but also expansion where the subject is too thick for the round to penetrate enough while expanded. Will the expansion itself slow a properly working JHP down enough to where it will not penetrate though a thick winter coat, and 3 or 4 inches of extra body fat? JHPs are suppose to expand and slow down. What if the person is so thick, with fat and clothing, that it slows down before it can reach the spine or internal organs? How much fat would it take to achieve this? I know about the standard ballistic gel tests and how much penetration is considered the minimum needed for a round to be reliable. But did those tests take excessive body fat or clothing into account?
Does body fat have different terminal ballistic properties as muscle? Does a down jacket with multiple layers of denim change the terminal ballistics enough to matter? Has this actually been tested? Are we just relying on the standard "12-18 inches" of penetration as per the FBI tests. Penetration of what? Muscle? Bone? Fat? Clothing? Organs? Do they differ enough to matter? Does more of one vs. the other differ enough to matter? Has that been tested?
Does body fat have different terminal ballistic properties as muscle? Does a down jacket with multiple layers of denim change the terminal ballistics enough to matter? Has this actually been tested? Are we just relying on the standard "12-18 inches" of penetration as per the FBI tests. Penetration of what? Muscle? Bone? Fat? Clothing? Organs? Do they differ enough to matter? Does more of one vs. the other differ enough to matter? Has that been tested?
Ragnar Danneskjold
Member
It's also been estimated that the US military fires 250,000 rounds per insurgent killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. So what round the military uses to kill bad guys has little to do with what round from a pistol a civilian should use in a populated area in the US.
Sheer mass of fire can kill a lot of bad guys. But that is irrelevant to what 1 individual round can do.
Sheer mass of fire can kill a lot of bad guys. But that is irrelevant to what 1 individual round can do.
No JHP is going to suffer from reduced penetration after going through a winter jacket. Heavy clothing defeats JHP bullets by clogging the cavity and delaying or preventing their expansion.
JHP bullets penetrate less than FMJ bullets because of their expansion, not because of their nose shape. A defeated JHP will behave identically to an FMJ bullet. Someone wearing a six inch thick jacket isn't the same as an extra six inches of tissue that needs to be penetrated. The amount of penetration a bullet has will be influenced by what it travels through, but that doesn't mean that every single inch of any kind of matter has the same effect on the bullet.
JHP bullets penetrate less than FMJ bullets because of their expansion, not because of their nose shape. A defeated JHP will behave identically to an FMJ bullet. Someone wearing a six inch thick jacket isn't the same as an extra six inches of tissue that needs to be penetrated. The amount of penetration a bullet has will be influenced by what it travels through, but that doesn't mean that every single inch of any kind of matter has the same effect on the bullet.
Ragnar Danneskjold
Member
Curious. Have there then been tests about how rounds penetrate though different types of human tissue? As far as I know, and I may be wrong, ballistic gel is of a standard consistency. Human tissue is not. That would inherently introduce an unstable element to the test. Have there been tests that attempt to simulate bullet entry into human tissue with different fat content?
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