FMJ vs JHP for self defense

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Are you a troll?

 

[Shawn Dodson]

JHP bullets, when they expand, produce greater wound trauma than a solid, non-expanding round nose bullet of the same caliber.

Flat nose FMJ is no more effective than round nose. It doesn't cut, it isn't sharp, and even the wadcutters many revolver shooters advocate for a nice sharp projectile, are not cast out of hard enough alloy, so the sharp edges round off when they hit tissue and they don't end up cutting a caliber-diameter hole all the way through the wound channel.

Incorrect. Flat nose FMJ crushes a hole very near the same diameter as the meplat (flat nose). Flat nose FMJ penetrates deeper than round nose FMJ because the flat nose also propels soft tissues radially away from the penetrating bullet which decreases penetration resistance. The effect produces a temporary cavity in which soft tissues are not contacting and flowing against the ogive & shank during the first few inches of the wound track. (The same is true for wadcutter bullets.)

*Lastly, your attacker is safer because he is far less likely to die from one or two hollowpoint bullets than the five or six round-nose slugs you would have had to fire to put him down. Most gunshot deaths occur from shock and loss of blood, and ball rounds tend to make entry and exit wounds, whereas hollowpoints go in and stay put. An attacker shot twice with ball ammo will probably have four holes in him rather than two, and is thus in far greater danger of death from blood loss. If you can avoid killing your attacker you should, for both moral and legal reasons....

Your attacker is allegedly “safer” because you’re shooting him with JHP bullets that cause greater wound trauma, meaning you won’t have to shoot him as many times? Malarky!

Bleeding is mostly internal. It leaks directly into the abdominal or thoracic cavities. Two holes on the outside of the body (entrance and exit) don’t translate into a greater danger of death from blood loss.

 

[Pyro]

I don't mind carrying ball ammo as long as it's LRN,
but that's when I have my thirty-eight derringer in my pocket.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

have no doubt a .45 fmj is a manstopper. I think the benefits of jhp in .45 are diminished returns as opposed to 9mm jhp for example.

9mm FMJ creates bigger wounds than .45 ACP FMJ. Yes I can back that up if you want to see it.

 

[cskny]

Most quality JHP will not penetrate 14" on average. Some will, but those are few. Winchester bonded JHP tend to penetrate more than non-bonded.

As to why choose JHP?

That must be one of those JHP's that bounced off a fat man's winter coat

 

[cskny]

Bleeding is mostly internal. It leaks directly into the abdominal or thoracic cavities. Two holes on the outside of the body (entrance and exit) don’t translate into a greater danger of death from blood loss.

I re-read and agree, my point made no sense. Forgive me

 

[Pyro]

9mm FMJ creates bigger wounds than .45 ACP FMJ. Yes I can back that up if you want to see it.

Not that I don't believe ya but I am curious now. If ya can, I'd like to see your proof.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

I'm pretty sure that non-intended holes on the outside of your body do put you at greater risk for blood "loss". When I bang my finger with a hammer I have internal bleeding. When I poke my finger with a nail, I suffer blood loss.

I think you are trying to argue that "internal bleeding" is a more likely cause of death in a gunshot wound, not "blood loss".

However, I don't think that's supported in gunshot medical data.

Smashing your finger with a hammer causes a bruise because the blunt force trauma ruptures capillaries. Blood is lost to surrounding tissues. This is not comparable to a bullet that crushes and removes the wall of a major vessel, creating profuse internal bleeding (blood loss from the circulatory system that leaks into the thoracic and abdominal cavities of the torso). Blood loss is blood lost from the circulatory system - it doesn't matter if bleeding is internal or external - its all blood loss.

 

[JRH6856]

Blood loss is blood lost from the circulatory system - it doesn't matter if bleeding is internal or external - its all blood loss.

+ 1

 

[SeriousGunBlog]

The "best" is the one you have and no one wants to get shot by either one.

 

[ColColt]

The 230 gr FMJ did it's job well...on the war front and in the bush. This ain't Viet Nam or Korea, however and we're not restricted to ammo use. I'd much rather have 200 gr lead SWC's in my magazine than ball ammo. A SWC doesn't just push a nerve or muscle aside, it cuts a chunk out of it. If Elmer Keith was alive today he'd straighten out some of these youngin's ideas about FMJ for defense.a lead SWC will do more internal damage and create more shock than any RN bullet whether lead or jacketed.

A good hollow point, whether it works 100% or not is immaterial. It will still punch a .45 cal hole just like FMJ but will do damage in the process. I'd stake my claims on Federal's HST, Ranger T or GDHP's and only rely on ball ammo as a last resort.

Cops miss way may than they hit-known fact. Ever watch TruTV and the shootouts they have with felons? I saw one the other day where three cops fired an undetermined amount of ammo at a guy and only hit him twice. Where did the rest of those bullets go? fortunately, this situation was out in the boondocks with no streets where the bullets could bounce off concrete or brick buildings and drill someone in the back or face.

I'll rely on something a little less likely to over penetrate and skid down the road. a 230 gr FMJ can penetrate 36 inches whereby the same weight hollow pint about 12-14 inches. If you're trying to knock out cinder blocks or a cars engine maybe the FMJ would work better. My vote goes for the jacketed hollow point.

 

[cskny]

Smashing your finger with a hammer causes a bruise because the blunt force trauma ruptures capillaries. Blood is lost to surrounding tissues. This is not comparable to a bullet that crushes and removes the wall of a major vessel, creating profuse internal bleeding (blood loss from the circulatory system that leaks into the thoracic and abdominal cavities of the torso). Blood loss is blood lost from the circulatory system - it doesn't matter if bleeding is internal or external - its all blood loss.

I agree, it's all circulatory system blood loss, but I thought we were talking about a cause of death? Internal bleeding can cause death from more then simply the loss of blood from the circulatory system (the blood can compress organs and cause their dysfunction)

 

[Jeb21]

I choose hollow point for self defense because it reduces the chances of over penetration and of ricochet. The fact that it may expand and might be a better stopper is nice but is not a prime consideration.

 

[NG VI]

Jeb, if you don't trust your JHP to expand, why would you trust it to penetrate less?

 

[OpelBlitz]

eb, if you don't trust your JHP to expand, why would you trust it to penetrate less?

I don't think he was implying that he doesn't trust it to expand or penetrate less. I think he was just saying that the ability to expand is a nice bonus. (Though for me, that's THE reason I use JHP's in my .45ACP - the expansion)

 

[Shawn Dodson]

I agree, it's all circulatory system blood loss, but I thought we were talking about a cause of death? Internal bleeding can cause death from more then simply the loss of blood from the circulatory system (the blood can compress organs and cause their dysfunction)

Cause of death? I was simply addressing the myth that two holes (entrance and exit) facilitates greater blood loss.

Internal bleeding can cause the lungs to collapse, which is why trauma surgeons routinely insert chest tubes to drain blood from the thoracic cavity.

 

[NG VI]

230 grain .45 auto will expand reliably at its normal velocity. Don't listen to that troll, he comes out to spout misinformation and idiotic statements like "more people have been killed with FMJ and bare lead bullets since firearms were invented than JHPs, so they must be a fancy major waste of your money!"

 

[OpelBlitz]

Yeah, I've read from his previous posts. Considering how many other facts he ignored when making his initial statement in this topic, I wasn't really taking him seriously anyway.

 

[wlewisiii]

As ignorant as this may potentially sound

Yes, Yes it is ignorant. Go talk to your local PD. If you find one actually carrying FMJ, I'll show you a walking federal civil rights law suit.

For the record, I shoot what ever cheap **** I can find for practice, including a boat load of FMJ and/or reloads.

EDC? Winchester 9mm Ranger 127gr +P+ T-Series (RA9TA). Don't fool around with your carry ammo. Carry the best you can or do. not. bother.

 

[mljdeckard]

Of course they overpenetrate. I WANT them to overpenetrate. I wouldn't want to use them if they didn't. Including the JHPs. The whole idea is to cause as many cm3 of tissue damage as possible, I want it to go all the way through the target.

Get this overpenetration idea out of your head, it's gibberish. Even if you could invent the perfect round that always stops in the target and still reliably stop the attacker, you are still likely to miss some of the time. You STILL have to worry about hitting people. And even if you think that the bullet will stop inside the intended target, you can't ASSUME it will, and that anyone standing behind them is safe. This means, you have to watch what is behind your target no matter what kind of bullet you are using, so you might as well use the most effective one. There is no overpenetration, there's just penetration, and you want all you can get.

And no, I have never heard of a premium JHP bullet that leaves a wound channel the same size as a JHP bullet. Some of the damage will not be traumatic enough to cause incapacitation, but no matter how you cut it, they do more damage than FMJ.

Oh, are we REALLY having this discussion again?

 

[mljdeckard]

Um, yeah. Cops and civilians don't have nearly as much opportunity to USE high-volume fire for self-defense. Soldiers are not ALLOWED to use hollow-points. Even nations who use the Hague Accords for toilet paper don't often use them, because the vast majority of ammo available to them is either NATO or Russian mil-spec FMJ.

Soldiers also use different rules. They don't have to use the same degree of restraint as cops and civilians. They are allowed to cut people in half with a crew-served weapon. With that kind of fire, what kind of bullet you use means little.

 

[OpelBlitz]

I didn't just say it all.

Whether any of us would want to be in the path of a bullet, or if anyone else would, is irrelevant. If a criminal would care what kind of bullet is in the gun pointing at him as you're about to pull the trigger, is irrelevant (and false). What's relevant here, is the performance of a hollow point versus a full metal jacket type bullet.

 

[mljdeckard]

Here's why it makes a difference. Soldiers can use volume of fire and teamwork and offensive tactics to stop their targets. The rest of us can't. We need bullets that will have the highest likelihood of stopping the bad guy under the most dire of circumstances. We are much more dependent on stopping people in the absolute shortest time possible than soldiers are. A soldier can stitch a 200lb man with his rifle. If I shoot a 200lb deer, I will probably get one shot only. I need it to count. I have had plenty of first hand experience seeing the difference between large animals wounded with FMJ and JHP. there is a HUGE difference.

JHP ammo is not as magical as some people think it is. But to say that it has no significant advantage over FMJ is gibberish. If it were so ineffective, police agencies wouldn't bother to pay for it, they would just use regular target ammo. The reason we spend so much time and energy trying to make better pistol bullets better is because their low velocity (to allow controllability and compactness) makes them lousy bullets. They ALL suck. When you are fighting for your life, you need to milk every last bit of effectiveness you can get out of that bullet, because this is when it counts. You are using a pistol to defend yourself, because you are in the absolute worst kind of trouble, and it's the only tool you have. It's a bad idea to tell yourself that the 'lesser' bullets are 'good enough', because NONE of them are.

 

[OpelBlitz]

Here's why it makes a difference. Soldiers can use volume of fire and teamwork and offensive tactics to stop their targets. The rest of us can't. We need bullets that will have the highest likelihood of stopping the bad guy under the most dire of circumstances. We are much more dependent on stopping people in the absolute shortest time possible than soldiers are. A soldier can stitch a 200lb man with his rifle. If I shoot a 200lb deer, I will probably get one shot only. I need it to count. I have had plenty of first hand experience seeing the difference between large animals wounded with FMJ and JHP. there is a HUGE difference.

JHP ammo is not as magical as some people think it is. But to say that it has no significant advantage over FMJ is gibberish. If it were so ineffective, police agencies wouldn't bother to pay for it, they would just use regular target ammo. The reason we spend so much time and energy trying to make better pistol bullets better is because their low velocity (to allow controllability and compactness) makes them lousy bullets. They ALL suck. When you are fighting for your life, you need to milk every last bit of effectiveness you can get out of that bullet, because this is when it counts. You are using a pistol to defend yourself, because you are in the absolute worst kind of trouble, and it's the only tool you have. It's a bad idea to tell yourself that the 'lesser' bullets are 'good enough', because NONE of them are.

That was pretty well said, thank you for that.

 

[NG VI]

Dude won't understand it, or will dismiss it because armies fighting for their nations, right or wrong, killed and in many cases murdered tens of millions of people in the 20th century.

It's a great explanation though, I think the bulk of people who read the thread will understand.