FMJ vs JHP for self defense

[Pigoutultra]

I haven't heard this argued before so I'll say it myself. Hollow-point bullets are longer than Full metal jacket bullets for a certain weight. So for instance, if you like the good ole' 230 grainers in your .45 ACP, there is less capacity for gunpowder when you use jhp as opposed to fmj.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I haven't heard this argued before so I'll say it myself. Hollow-point bullets are longer than Full metal jacket bullets for a certain weight. So for instance, if you like the good ole' 230 grainers in your .45 ACP, there is less capacity for gunpowder when you use jhp as opposed to fmj.

Is that for every manufacturer? Do they all use the same type and amount of powder? Same bullet design? Wouldn't you be able to look up the ballistic table for the speed of the bullet from the manufacturer and make sure you're still buying a round that travels fast enough for your tastes?

 

[NG VI]

So a slight bump up in pressure for the same velocity for a given bullet weight would be the result, do you think?

Ragnar, I haven't heard of or seen any tests that could accurately measure different consistencies of people. I think the reason no one has bothered to try is because the gel is just supposed to give a consistent medium that matches as much as possible the consistency of the human body, as experienced by a bullet. People aren't consistent, so it wouldn't be very practical to try to standardize tests with multiple consistencies.

 

[Pyro]

I've got a better debate than this really really really really old and over-debated subject. How about JHP vs a LHP? Sorta like Fed Nyclad vs Hydra-Shok.

 

[HDCamel]

Let's look at the superficial pros and cons of various ammo types:

FMJ - Feeds reliably in all firearms. Able to penetrate hard surfaces or multiple individuals, but creates a more survivable wound.
JHP - Less penetration due to expansion which causes better tissue damage. Probably the most effective at incapacitation.
JSP - Often used for hunting, moderate expansion and penetration creating a large exit wound. Perhaps the most lethal due to fastest bleed out.

It seems like FMJ has very little to offer, but is that really the case?

Taking into consideration the fact that every bullet you fire is your responsibility as well as the fact that you are far more likely to miss your target altogether, what if you hit an innocent bystander with your one-shot manstopper?

They say to hope for the best and plan for the worst. Shouldn't a responsible carrier then choose ammo based on the assumtion that they WILL accidentally hit an innocent bystander to give them the best chance of survival and recovery.

 

[chrt396]

Most quality JHP will not penetrate 14" on average. Some will, but those are few. Winchester bonded JHP tend to penetrate more than non-bonded.

As to why choose JHP?

That looks like it would leave a nasty bruise!

 

[BeerSleeper]

Hollow-point bullets are longer than Full metal jacket bullets for a certain weight. So for instance, if you like the good ole' 230 grainers in your .45 ACP, there is less capacity for gunpowder when you use jhp as opposed to fmj.

It's really a nonissue for a caliber like 45. The case has volume to spare. Using common powders of normal density, you will reach maximum pressure long before the case runs out of room.

 

[BeerSleeper]

They say to hope for the best and plan for the worst. Shouldn't a responsible carrier then choose ammo based on the assumtion that they WILL accidentally hit an innocent bystander to give them the best chance of survival and recovery.

If you are shooting for defensive purposes, you are attempting to incapacitate a person. You want to be at your most effective. If, instead, you're going to try to be least effective, well, the best way to do that is leave the gun at home.

 

[BeerSleeper]

It's also been estimated that the US military fires 250,000 rounds per insurgent killed in Iraq and Afghanistan

That is an unbelievable number. Can it be verified to be accurate?

 

[Glock Doctor]

For Informational Purposes! I am sure I will get flamed for this but here goes! FACT: More bad guys have (been)(Ed) killed by FMJ bullets than any other kind!

Personally, I believe that; but, just remember the lowly 25 ACP loaded with FMJ ammo is a very common street crime gun. Last time I read up on this, (not recently) it appears that most street criminals prefer to carry and use small 22 LR and 25 ACP handguns.

Here’s some recent information on the FMJ/JHP debate. I find it intriguing to note that the United States military continues to use FMJ pistol ammo; AND the USA is NOT one of the signatories to the accords signed at the 1899 Hague Peace Conference.

What the United States did sign was a 1907 Hague Accord not, ‘To employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering.’ This, of course, allows the American military to use whatever pistol ammunition they want; but, still, FMJ pistol ammo continues to be used. The question I would ask is, ‘Why?’ (But, then again, I think I know the answer; and it has little to do with any, ‘unnecessary suffering’.)

http://www.thegunzone.com/miami-ammo.html

These things being said, I like the mandated 14 inch penetration depth for current JHP ammo; and, while I do not feel, 'poorly armed' with either type of ammunition, I do often carry bonded JHP's.

 

[NG VI]

Beersleeper, I think that's been pretty consistent since Vietnam and probably even earlier. It takes into account lots of suppressive fire though, including from aircraft, it's an all-forces expenditure, not just shots per kill by infantry forces.

 

[holdencm9]

Taking into consideration the fact that every bullet you fire is your responsibility as well as the fact that you are far more likely to miss your target altogether, what if you hit an innocent bystander with your one-shot manstopper?

They say to hope for the best and plan for the worst. Shouldn't a responsible carrier then choose ammo based on the assumtion that they WILL accidentally hit an innocent bystander to give them the best chance of survival and recovery.

You're right, I am going to go replace the ammo in my defensive weapons to be rubber bullets.

Seriously, I understand the concept, but the concern of hitting innocent bystanders is WAY overblown. First of all, most SD shootings don't occur in heavily congested areas. Secondly, the only time you should be firing your weapon is if your life is in danger. If that's the case then I hate to say it, but I will take my chances.

It is kind of like that question, would you kill a baby to save 10,000 people? Well, would you RISK (5, 10% chance) killing an innocent to save your own life? Of course, we'd all like to mitigate that risk, but still. Let's be realistic.

 

[Pigoutultra]

I like how lhp can be made in my garage, jhp can't.

 

[JRH6856]

They say to hope for the best and plan for the worst. Shouldn't a responsible carrier then choose ammo based on the assumtion that they WILL accidentally hit an innocent bystander to give them the best chance of survival and recovery.

Obviously the antis are correct. Guns endanger innocent people. A responsible person would not carry one and an irresponsible person should not be allowed to carry one.

:banghead:

 

[HDCamel]

Obviously the antis are correct. Guns endanger innocent people. A responsible person would not carry one and an irresponsible person should not be allowed to carry one.

:banghead:

Not what I was getting at and you know it... but in case you don't:

People can't act all considerate and say that they're concerned with an FMJ overpenetrating and hitting an innocent and then dismiss the fact that a collateral FMJ is far less lethal to a bystander than an errant JHP.

It's just something to consider.

 

[JRH6856]

So what round the military uses to kill bad guys has little to do with what round from a pistol a civilian should use in a populated area in the US.

Besides, the military uses FMJ because the Hague Conventions require them to do so....because JHPs cause unacceptable levels of damage.

 

[JRH6856]

Not what I was getting at and you know it... but in case you don't:

People can't act all considerate and say that they're concerned with an FMJ overpenetrating and hitting an innocent and then dismiss the fact that a collateral FMJ is far less lethal to a bystander than an errant JHP.

It's just something to consider.

Just following the logic of the premise.

But I wonder how much chance there is of collateral damage either way? FMJ and JHP both lose a lot of energy going through things. How much will they have left? Look at the FBI Miami Shootout and how many rounds were fired that missed (something like 80%) completely. What was the collateral damage from those misses? I've seen no reports of any much less any of any significance.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Besides, the military uses FMJ because the Hague Conventions require them to do so....because JHPs cause unacceptable levels of damage.

That's not really the reason we still use FMJ. We use it because FMJ feeds more reliably than hollow points, especially in adverse conditions. And FMJ is easier to shoot through stuff like windows, walls, mud berms, clothing, chest magazine carriers, soft armor, etc.

 

[MuleRyder]

Well my side of the debate is that our military has killed more bad guys with FMJ than any of and/or all of our police departments have combined and that's an irrefutable fact!

I don't believe the military is too concerned with over penetration, also FMJ has the most reliable feeding in a wide range of weapons

 

[JRH6856]

So it comes down to competing philosophies. If you believe that penetration is key, use FMJ. If you believe expansion is valuable, use JHP. If you're unsure, join the party.

Reality is probably that in pistol bullets, all three factors are important, placement, penetration and expansion, maybe in that order, maybe not. I think the importance of each one is dependent how much of the other two you get. Ideally, you get all three, but real life is not ideal. You go for it all, take what you can get, and hope for the best.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Reality is probalby that in pistol bullets, all three factors are important, placement, penetration and expansion, maybe in that order, maybe not. I think the importance of each one is dependent how much of the other two you get. Ideally, you get all three, but real life is not ideal.

That pretty much sums it up.

 

[MCgunner]

Cheeez. I wonder what our military guide lines are and I know they have been taking out bad guys with FMJ ammo for over 100 years now? First in 45 ACP and now in 9 mm NATO!

I'm not in the military and, thus, am not limited by "the rules of war" (treaty) to use FMJ.

Today, I carried Hornady Critical Defense....in my .22 mag NAA Black Widow. I like to be armed at all times like lunch at Town and Country restaurant, but like to be discreet in church.

http://www.hornady.com/store/22-WMR-45gr-Critical-Defense/

 

[HammerheadSSN663]

guarantee that the last thing on your mind when bullets are flying in your direction is over-penetration.

Now if you are considering it before hand and load your weapon with HPs, then that is a valid point.

 

[holdencm9]

Over 90% of that fancy hollow point bullet stuff just gets shot through paper at the ranges.

Over 99.99% of that old-timey FMJ bullet stuff just gets shot through paper at the ranges. So? I don't see how the ratio of real life to practice has anything to do with the effectiveness of a round.

My peace of mind comes from knowing that there is a less likely chance of operational failure in an auto loading pistol with round nosed bullets as did John Moses Browning.

Any modern autoloader should feed most modern JHP ammunition reliably. I am glad you at least said "less likely" as in, you aren't convinced that FMJ feeds perfectly no matter what, which would be false. Funny thing is in my experience, FMJ is less reliable because it is usually for practice, and cheaper, and so QC isn't as good and am more likely to have a stovepipe. Never had a jam related to the shape of the bullet, but then again Beretta's feed just about anything. But if it is a concern at all, then carry a revolver.

Now, launching a couple of 230 grn FMJ slugs at a bad situation has proven to be more than adequate to bring it to a screeching halt in my experience.

I have no doubt a .45 fmj is a manstopper. I think the benefits of jhp in .45 are diminished returns as opposed to 9mm jhp for example.

 

[X-Rap]

Here is a piece I just read that really seems timely for this thread. It addresses the bullet and capacity issue in my opinion.


http://www.warriortalknews.com/2012/01/bullets-dont-work.html

Handguns are at best a compromise and I think we compromise further by the caliber, capacity, and size. For me there are factors that dictate these compromises, clothing, and environment being the major ones. I am not in denial when I carry a 380 in my pocket or a 5 shot revolver due to my not having a belt or need for a lighter more compact gun because I know I probably have an inferior weapon in the worst case. In the best case I have a more powerful 14-17 rd. pistol and of course neither holds a candle to a rifle with 20-30 rds.
I like HP ammo and if it feeds reliably that is what goes in the gun, not even a question in a revolver.