FMJ vs JHP for self defense

[Bozwell]

I'm not sure that that's quite fair.

The super-expensive new expanding loads (whether DPX, EFMJ, FTX, or whatever) offer marginal improvements over old HP technologies. Via gel tests, we predict they may expand better than standard HPs after hitting barriers, but that's about it. And it is a real question whether the cost is worth it, IMHO.

That doesn't change the fact that for defensive handguns, I do not use FMJ. And I've even been known to blow money on super-ammo; however, that's a personal choice based on personal opinion.You know, Prosser, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if you've got a 12 ga revolver (and proper paperwork!) sitting in a holster somewhere!

I'm not suggesting ALL "new" things are better. I'm simply saying the broad statements being made in this thread about hollow points generally being gimmicks amaze me.

Also, Prosser, while it did tumble, 23 and some inches of penetration is quite a bit and I suspect that you'd be better off to give up some of that penetration in exchange for a larger, expanding round. In any event, until you have equivalent data comparing the HPs to that FMJ round (or other FMJ rounds) from the same gun and into the same medium, it's really all speculation. You then have to consider other factors, such your personal carry gun (does it feed the round, do you get sufficient velocity from the various rounds with your gun) or even climate (such as is everyone wearing multiple layers and winter coats) to even come close to reaching a well-informed decision. I won't say that the HP is always the superior round to FMJ, but I will laugh when it's suggested that HP's are merely gimmicks and serve no purposes other than inflated costs.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Then that would suggest that if FMJ and JHP were compared for the same WC length, the average WCD for FMJ would be larger and there would be less difference between the two.

Are you talking about a JHP bullet that doesn't expand? I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Bullet shape plays a critical role. A round nose FMJ penetrates less than a flat point FMJ (of the same caliber, weight and velocity) due to the resistance of soft tissues that are in continuous contact with, and flow against the FMJ-RN bullet's contours (meplat, ogive, shoulder, shank). More tissue comes into direct contact with an FMJ-RN bullet than an FMJ-FP bullet, and this greater contact translates into greater drag. Whereas the flat nose of an FMJ-FP bullet produces a small temporary cavity that propels soft tissues radially away from the ogive, shoulder and shank, which means less tissues come into direct contact with the bullet, and that translates into less drag, which allows the bullet to penetrate deeper.

OTOH, if the WCD for FMJ were the same for the entire channel length, so would be the average for any distance. The latter is what your graphics seem to indicate.

The wound profile illustrations are flawed because they depict the permanent cavity as being the same constant diameter from start to finish.

 

[easyg]

Having used and seen the 230 grn FMJ round in action, I can assure you that it is a formidable man stopper and has been for over 100 years now. We have won several wars with it too, I might ad.

Nonsense!
The USA has never won any war because of the 230g FMJ round.
In fact, handguns are insignificant when it comes to modern warfare.
Less than 10% of military personnel are even issued a handgun.


Here's a bit of trivia for you:
Handguns were originally issued to officers to shoot those who refused to advance in to battle, not to be used against the enemy.


When it comes to warfare, handguns are insignificant.

 

[JRH6856]

The wound profile illustrations are flawed because they depict the permanent cavity as being the same constant diameter from start to finish.

That's it. I wasn't quite sure where I was going either, just something didn't quite fit.

 

[Sam Cade]

Lethality is a function of what the bullet hits. What you hit is more important than what you hit with - be it FMJ or JHP.

Quoted for truth.





To belabor the the point, Vasili Blokhin killed 7,000 people consecutively, with a .25 ACP, one shot each.

 

[Prosser]

It seems that as the bullet is heavier, bigger, and faster, resistance seems to increase geometrically. The shot gun round goes only 14 inches.
The wound channel indicator would suggest that a 17.6 MM bullet, nearly one inch, would leave a Wound channel diameter of 3.783" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of 1.0", and a striking velocity of 1513 fps, on first contact. After hitting resistance, the wound channel is going to become smaller, eventually becoming the size of the bullet, at 26".

That's funny, since when I showed my friend a 275 grain, .475 Linebaugh load, at about 1560 fps, he said the problem is it blows a 4" hole in deer, but doesn't penetrate enough.

So, imagine that slug hole starting at about 4", and you have a better wound channel to calculate. Problem is my 275 grain bullets are too light to adequately penetrate deer, given HP and that velocity.

Still, for what I'm after, that's pretty near perfect. I essentially have a shotgun in a hand held pistol, that weighs 3.2 pounds.
It's hard to open the door with a shotgun behind your back, or rifle.

Now, without any expansion, for the 185 grain wadcutter:
Wound channel diameter of 1.059" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .45", and a striking velocity of 941 fps.
If I juice the .45 185 to 1350 fps, I end up with another half inch on the Wound channel.

The hole is going to be more cylindrical then a HP.

Try looking at Gello in slow motion, and you can see how the initial cavity is large, but tapers very quickly, cone shaped.

Where I'm going with this is HP's are one tool in the box. There are no absolutes. Depending on your situation, you may or may not be able to get a HP bullet that penetrates enough. You may want more penetration then most HP's are designed to give.

 

[Prosser]

I want it all

Here is my take on the entire subject:
The .45 Colt, with 200-300 grain LFN type bullets at around 1100-1400 fps is near perfect. They never fail to expand, and they penetrate straight.

If you want a HP, it should be in the 300 grain range, to maintain velocity and penetration after impact. In fact, all the service calibers are pretty much incapable of firing a bullet heavy enough to really justify a HP. While they work some of the time, if you really want a high % of effectiveness the HP should be heavy for caliber, and going at least 1200 fps for reliable expansion.

The industry, needing velocity to promise expansion, have gone light for caliber HP's, that open up strong, but die quickly after impact, with limited penetration.

Or, a fast opening bullet going relatively slowly, not a good solution either.

As for the .45 ACP in war:

It's primary use was out of Thompson Submachine guns. IIRC, average rate of fire is 600 rounds a minute, or, 10 rounds per second. Do the Math. That means you are getting hit with 2300 grains every second.
So, think getting hit with Sam Baker's 4 bore, Baby, but a little harder, and you have the general effect. Keep in mind, Baby was effective enough to stun an elephant.
I think we can close the book on how effective the .45 ACP was in the World War II, when used out of it's primary weapon, a Thompson machine gun. I guess nearly 2 million Thompson's were made, 1.5 in WW II alone.

I do wonder what the percentage of Thompsons to other rifles during WWII.

 

[Bozwell]

Where I'm going with this is HP's are one tool in the box. There are no absolutes. Depending on your situation, you may or may not be able to get a HP bullet that penetrates enough. You may want more penetration then most HP's are designed to give.

I don't really follow the first part of your post, as it seems that you're talking about hunting medium sized game with handguns rather than self defensive rounds. That said, I think at the end of the day we're in agreement. Hollow points aren't always better, nor are they always worse. It's one tool. Most of my comments earlier were addressed at people referring to hollow points as just gimmicks and scams orchestrated by the ammo companies, thereby implying that there's no merit to hollow point rounds whatsoever.

 

[JRH6856]

The .45 Colt, with 200-300 grain LFN type bullets at around 1100-1400 fps is near perfect.

OK, you're making a pretty good case for a Taurus Judge for SD. Or at least something in a .44 Magnum.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

9mm 124 Gr. FMJ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSrlItrsbvs

.45 ACP 230 Gr. FMJ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLPjTlj1pHk&feature=related

As you can see here, 9mm FMJ created a bigger temporary cavity against .45 ACP FMJ.

 

[NG VI]

...Why is your .475 Linebaugh being thrown into the defensive pistol arena?

Prosser, you've got a ton of shooting experience, but the loads and platforms you are advocating as best are only an option for very few people. Even for them, it's probably not the best overall option, given the size, weight, and heavy recoil.

 

[Pigoutultra]

As you can see here, 9mm FMJ created a bigger temporary cavity against .45 ACP FMJ.

I believe you said wounds, not temp cav in your earlier post.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

I believe you said wounds, not temp cav in your earlier post.

They go hand in hand. The bigger the temporary cavity, the bigger the permanent wound.

 

[Pigoutultra]

Not as far as I can tell. Temporary cavities can only be estimated, permanent can be accurately measured.

 

[JRH6856]

I have PERSONALLY seen with my own eyes what a couple of .45 230 grn FMJ flying ashtrays can do

Flying ashtrays are JHP, not FMJ. Or pehaps these are 230gr. FMJ, electronic, JHP flying ashtray, hydrogen bombs?

 

[Bozwell]

Flying ashtrays are JHP, not FMJ. Or pehaps these are 230gr. FMJ, electronic, JHP flying ashtray, hydrogen bombs?

I'm waiting for the portable sharks with frickin' laser beams myself.

 

[Prosser]

Bozwell:

I do think they sort of originated as gimmick. Remember, you can get the same result using a 12BRN or less, cast lead bullet, with a gas check. If feeding in an auto is a problem, add a gilded thin jacket.

The problem is the assumption you made after my initial statement.

I don't deal in firearms in absolutes, since pretty much, any statement has an exception.

Soft pure lead bullets, even heavy for this discussion, 260 grain, .45 Colt bullets, at 940-1000 fps are known to deflect, just as HP's are.

NG VI:

Where I'm going with that is for certain situations, certain guns.

Also I think the .475 is a bit extreme in some ways, and not in others.

What I am getting back to is after killing everything on the planet, almost, with bigger guns, a couple folks I really respect settle on .475 Linebaugh 420 grain bullets, at 950 fps(Lee Jurras),
and Ross Seyfried is apparently back to a 6 shot .45 Colt for his favorite all around pistol. John Linebaugh's one gun for a long time was a .45 Colt S&W 25-5, with LFN 240-260 grains, at 1100 fps.
Kept food on the table, and worked like a rifle.

So, while they may have a few other guns laying around, the standard seems to be a bullet that starts with a .4 going at least 950 fps, and weighing at least 240-260 grains. Couple other guys, Keith
and Skelton came to the same conclusion. This combination is reachable in most modern revolvers at low pressure, without severe recoil.

Jurras also knows that if it starts with a .3, weighs at least 125 grains, and is going at least 1350 fps, it is going to be effective as well.

Just match your choice to your target. Their is no absolute right answer to this question. Hollow points are NOT the best answer, always, particularly not in service calibers.

The advantage to revolvers is you can get these ballistics without having to overload the guns to high pressure.

The 9MM and .40 are pretty much operating at .44 Magnum pressures to get their velocity. I suspect that a lot of recoil is added for not much of a gain in ballistics, when going from 25k pressure to 40K.
Plus the target is unlikely to notice.

On the otherhand, the .45 ACP is too low pressure. The difference between .45 Super pressure and velocity and .45 ACP makes me feel like my guns are alive, but, I spent most of my shooting life shooting .45 Detonics, ironically with 200 grain flying ashtrays, yes, they are HP's, at 1200 fps, out of a Detonics Mark VI.

Remember, the ignore feature is your friend;-)

 

[Pigoutultra]

I will be so daring as to say that .45 230 grain fmj bullets are most certainly no more lethal than a pink mouse. I will also say(sarcasm aside) that there isn't much of a difference in your choice of caliber or bullet construction aside from .90 caliber handguns and styrofoam bullets.

 

[Bozwell]

Again, I was referring to a comment by someone saying they are a gimmick. If you said or thought they originated that way, then that's fine, but that's not what I was referring to. A statement that hollow points, generally, are a gimmick is the nonsensical statement I was referring to. That statement is pretty clear on its face and I don't think I'm making any assumptions in my reading of it.

Also, there are other issues to shooting cast lead bullets, beyond feeding, such as fouling, fragmentation, and so on. I don't really consider that the same.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

They go hand in hand. The bigger the temporary cavity, the bigger the permanent wound.

It'd be more accurate to say - The bigger the temporary cavity the potential for greater permanent disruption.

Permanent disruption is the term used to describe tissue contacted and crushed by the bullet (and any fragments) PLUS the tissue that is permanently damaged by the temporary cavity (tears and ruptures).

Permanent disruption is highly dependent on what tissues the bullet encounters as it penetrates AND where these tissues are located along the wound track. (For example a .357 Magnum 125gr JHP that encounters liver near the beginning of its wound track is going to produce more damage to the liver, due to the location of the temporary cavity, than if it encounters the liver near the end of its wound track.)

 

[Shawn Dodson]

As you can see here, 9mm FMJ created a bigger temporary cavity against .45 ACP FMJ.

The 9mm bullet yawed about halfway through the block, which presented more leading edge surface area as it penetrated.

 

[Prosser]

Shawn:
What's your choice, caliber load, firearm, and why for SD? Also where?

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Speer 9mm 124gr +P Gold Dot. (Glock 19 or Kahr PM-9, depending on the situation.)

Winchester .32 ACP 71gr FMJ-FP. (Seecamp LWS .32, depending on the situation.)

I chose the 124gr +P load simply for economics - I can handload training ammo with less expensive 124gr FMJ bullets that mirror the ballistics of the Speer load. The Speer 124gr +P load reliably achieves adequate penetration and I can purchase 50 round boxes for less than $30.

I chose the Winchester .32 ACP FMJ-FP load to ensure it achieves adequate penetration. The flat point crushes a greater diameter permanent cavity than round nose. A secondary reason is because it's the only FMJ cartridge that will fit in a Seecamp magazine. (While the Buffalo Bore "+P" cartridge uses a hardcast lead bullet that also has a flat point (and will fit a Seecamp magazine) the tradeoff in slightly increased penetration (20" vs 14-16") isn't worth the extra recoil and cost ($25 for 20 rds vs. $25 for 50 rds).)

 

[Prosser]

Funny how that works out. Much as I would like to carry .45 Colt, as close as I can come is .45 Super:
so 230 Grain Speer HP's at 1100 fps:
Detonics CombatMaster or High Noon full sized holster, and Kimber Custom II custom by JRH advanced gunsmithing.

Federal HST 147 grain 9MM: Why? I got a great deal on them, bought around 500 for about 12 bucks a box for 50.
Kahr PM 9

S*W 360PD:
fioochi 147 grains JHP, at 1131 fps, or, Buffalobore 158 grain LHP, at 1040 fps.
Because that's all I can shoot out of that gun, at 7 yards, and hit what I aim at, without killing myself.

Beretta 950 .22 short
with CCI HP's that don't expand. It's as good as an ice pick, and I don't have to get as close as with an ice pick. The HP's don't work. Should find something with a solid bullet, but I still have a bunch around.

Finally for woods or winter carry, Thomas Perfectionist, .500JRH, 425 grains, 1350 fps. For those days and places you really want to be carrying a rifle, but can't.

FA 83.
No one right answer to this question.

 

[Prosser]

The only real answer is that most of us aren't allowed to use submachine guns anymore.

You want lethal? I had, a long time ago, on another planet, a Mac 10, .45 ACP.
With ball ammo, it would spit out 32 rounds of 230 grain ball ammo at about 1200 rounds a minute. That's 20 rounds per second. In other words in under 2 seconds you absorb the bullet weight of the most powerful elephant rifle ever built, the ONE BORE. 7000 grains. At SD distances, it was the ultimate SD gun.
With that, or a Thompson, you don't need no expanding bullets...

The 9MM version and the baby .380 had similar fire speeds, and, I suspect if you took a full clip from any of the 3 it would be much like getting hit by a buzz saw.