FMJ vs JHP for self defense

[Shawn Dodson]

Beretta 950 .22 short
with CCI HP's that don't expand. It's as good as an ice pick, and I don't have to get as close as with an ice pick. The HP's don't work. Should find something with a solid bullet, but I still have a bunch around.

You might consider CCI SGB (Small Game Bullet) which has a flat nose and is propelled at Mini Mag velocity.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

The 9mm bullet yawed about halfway through the block, which presented more leading edge surface area as it penetrated.

Thus a bigger wound.

This is the opening OP Posting and query. I will never back off the firm conviction that a 230 .45 caliber FMJ is a LETHAL and FORMIDABLE self protection round. Thank you all for lively debate!

Of course it's still lethal and formidable but JHP outweighs the benefits of FMJ and when it expands, it does more damage and has a bigger energy dump with JHPs. I would and I have relied on 9mm FMJ and I wouldn't hesitate to use it again but I would be better off with JHPs.

 

[Prosser]

Thanks Shawn. They go 6-8 inches of real rat.

I've been using Paco's Accurizer to flatten the nose out on em. Don't remember if much real velocity difference out of that short a barrel between those two rounds???

So, as for the .45 ACP in WWII:
LOTS of shootings with it, out of 1.5 million Thompson machine guns VERY effective at close range. I think that we can safely say it's track record is proven, as is the 9mm, as a VERY effective sub-machine gun round.

 

[Bobson]

I find this topic to be super interesting - especially considering there are so many conflicting opinions on it. I don't mean to steer the conversation away from whatever is currently taking place (I didn't read the last several pages yet), but I wanted to bring this up here to see what some thoughts are on it.

I read this in the last month, in another thread on a similar topic: Warning: Graphic Images Inside (One of those FBI Analysis Links) - - That other thread can be found here (Post #34), if anyone wants to know where I got the link.

Unless I seriously misunderstood the information within the link, JHP ammunition (.40S&W Speer Gold Dot's, in this case) proved to be very ineffective - in this situation, at least. Did I misunderstand it? The suspect in this situation was shot something like twelve times, and not a single round penetrated more than 2", IIRC. Needless to say, none of the shots stopped him. He wasn't on drugs, wasn't wearing a ballistic vest, etc.

Was the poor penetration in this event a freak/isolated incident? Are Speer Gold Dot's generally accepted as sub-par JHP projectiles? Or something else entirely?

 

[Prosser]

Read it again. Someone doesn't like the 180 grain Speer HP, and reported it failed to penetrate 1", which was not the case. The last page makes clear that the rounds did penetrate, just that this is the guy with the will power to break the handcuffs, and tear them off.

He was very determined to kill as many police as he could, before they got him. That is clear.

None the less, there are a lot of 40 bullets in that body, and, perhaps it would have been much better to have through shots, giving a better chance to stop then what are assessed as non-vital, non-threatening hits.

As Urey Patrick wrote, under-penetration can and will get you killed. It seems all of this departments ammunition selections are determined by being politically correct, instead of ballistic correct.:banghead:

 

[Bozwell]

Was the poor penetration in this event a freak/isolated incident? Are Speer Gold Dot's generally accepted as sub-par JHP projectiles? Or something else entirely?

That's really not something you can ascertain from one incident. I do think though that a situation like this where you have someone wearing a heavy down jacket strengthens the case for better penetration. My personal take away though is that you should always grab a rifle instead of a pistol when given the option.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Unless I seriously misunderstood the information within the link, JHP ammunition (.40S&W Speer Gold Dot's, in this case) proved to be very ineffective - in this situation, at least. Did I misunderstand it? The suspect in this situation was shot something like twelve times, and not a single round penetrated more than 2", IIRC. Needless to say, none of the shots stopped him. He wasn't on drugs, wasn't wearing a ballistic vest, etc.

Yes, you misunderstood.

The "NTOA BLOG" (slide 6 of the FBI report) reported incorrect information, as the FBI investigation revealed.

Key findings by the FBI (as presented in the last five slides of the report):

BRF Testing of Officer’s Ammunition on 12/15/06

• Consistent with all bare gelatin and barrier testing done previously for ammunition data CD.
  
• Results of Speer 180 gr. Gold Dot satisfy FBI standards for terminal performance.
  
• Results of Hornady 55gr. and 75 gr. TAP do not satisfy FBI standards for terminal performance.

Facts

• At least 107 rounds (.40/.223) were fired by two officers.
  
• First officer on scene seriously wounded in left forearm and seat-belted in cruiser was unable to return fire.
  
• Assailant fired 26 rounds and reloaded magazine from box of loose ammunition.
  
• Assailant was shot 17 times with 11 rounds exiting body.
  
• Incident lasted approximately 3.5 minutes. Six .40 S&W rounds, five which expanded, were recovered on autopsy.
  
• It is impossible for .40 S&W 180 gr. JHP ammunition to expand with only 1 in. or less penetration in a human body.
  
• After all .223 rounds had been fired, assailant was hit with 180 gr. Gold Dot in right arm above the elbow.
  
• Officers had to “fight” assailant in order to get handcuffed.

Lessons Learned

• There is plenty of inaccurate information regarding ballistics/terminal performance disseminated on web forums, even those which are dedicated as LE only.
  
• The .40 S&W ammunition did not fail in this incident.
  
• The performance of the .223 TAP ammunition, although consistent with manufacturer’s claims, did not perform terminally as this Police Department expected.
  
• Determined individuals can sustain many gunshot wounds in areas that produce great pain and continue to fight a long time, even without the aid of drugs or alcohol.
  
• Shot placement is everything in a gunfight and always the key to stopping a threat effectively.

 

[Bobson]

Thanks for clearing it up guys, and Shawn specifically. I failed to grasp those bolded points, and connect the dots to what they actually meant - despite being so blatantly obvious right now.

 

[NG VI]

Down jacket's don't stop bullets.

 

[Ben86]

the so called temporary wound channel or stretch channel has been proven to be basically worthless in terms of actually producing any real damage on living tissue

That's mostly irrelevant to pistol calibers. With pistol calibers the only thing that really matters is the permanent wound cavity. JHPs create a larger permanent wound cavity.

and even though many expanding bullets may increase to twice their original size, the permanent wound channel they create is often smaller than the actual unexpanded diameter of the bullet

What? Expanding bullets EXPAND and create a larger hole. A permanent hole.

So where exactly is their advantage over FMJ?

They do more damage which = faster incapacitation and they present less of a chance of over-penetration. Yes over-penetration should be a concern, just as missing your shot should.

I don't think fmj can't get the job done, but properly designed jhp can do it better.

 

[Loosedhorse]

It is impossible for .40 S&W 180 gr. JHP ammunition to expand with only 1 in. or less penetration in a human body.

This seems to be an erroeous statement.



That's a Federal EFMJ expanded after about an inch of gel. There also the famous photo of the Federal Hydra-Shok .45 full expanded after 2 inches of gel that's on the cover of Handgun Stopping Power.

"Unlikely" or "highly improbable" is one thing; however, "impossible" is a very high standard, and it is easy to impeach many "impossible" statements.

With pistol calibers the only thing that really matters is the permanent wound cavity.

Fackler himself mentions that temporary wound cavity is enhanced as a wounding mechanism with fragmenting bullets (he was referring to 5.56). So, one then looks at successful handgun rounds like the .357 125gr SJHP, which fragments and has a large temporary cavity, and wonders.

Like "impossible," categorical statements (such as, temporary wound channel doesn't ever matter for any handgun load) seem to demand fairly exhaustive evidence ruling out all handgun loads.

.45 caliber flying ashtray round

I always thought it was "flying ashcan" rather than flying ashtray (with deferrence to Mrs. Clinton, of course.)

 

[Tcruse]

Yes, you misunderstood.

The "NTOA BLOG" (slide 6 of the FBI report) reported incorrect information, as the FBI investigation revealed.

Key findings by the FBI (as presented in the last five slides of the report):

This shooting and the two versions of it have surfaced a few times in different places. I am not sure that either account is 100% accurate. The FBI report is certainly "cover your behind" report saying that we were correct from the begining and all contrary information is wrong. The first report may have also been slanted to say it was the "ammo" not the officers skill or the other factors.

The x-rays are somewhat helpful but it is not possible to get a good reading on the depth based on a one view xray. There are bullets that did expand and stay in the body, apparently not going deep enough for best effect. There are also a bullet that stayed in the body and did not expand. So, in this one case there are questions that deserve investigation.

In general, we all know that the 40S&W with HP ammo has a good record especially from full sized Glocks. But there is nothing certain in these circumstances, so call it what you like. This is one case not enough to make any general statements.

Would an FN 5.7 at 1900 fps saved the day?
Would a .45 FMJ at 900 fps saved the day?
Would a 9MM HP +P+ saved the day?

All not answerable from the information available.
This is the exact reason that we must take the information from testing in known media, field reports (usually from PD like this one), gun choice and our own skill/comfort level for the choice.

For me, FMJ is the choice only if my gun is very small ( less than .380 ACP) or has a problem with feeding HP bullets (some .45 1911). I also will opt for a medium priced HP that I can rotate in my practice. I consider broken any 9mm or .40 pistol that does not feed HP bullets every time.
(Note: I will make every attempt to not have to find out by personal experience as to if my choice worked or not. The best gun fight is one that did not happen.)

 

[X-Rap]

Yep you are going to go from the RNFMJ to the hydrogen death ray and skip those stupid HP/SP bullets the rest of us use.

 

[Bozwell]

Well said Tcruse.

 

[NG VI]

LoosedHorse what I think the report's author intended to say, and boogered up through somewhat clumsy writing, is that it's impossible for a .40 S&W bullet to only penetrate a single inch of human. If that's what he was really trying to write, then he would be absolutely correct.

Every gel test I've seen tends to show hollow point bullets expanding within the first inch or two of media, so the author is definitely, documentedly wrong with that statement.

 

[SharkHat]

NG,

The way I read it was that the examiner interpreted the evidence of expansion to indicate that the bullets must have penetrated beyond the 1" claimed in the initial report.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Quote:
It is impossible for .40 S&W 180 gr. JHP ammunition to expand with only 1 in. or less penetration in a human body.

This seems to be an erroeous statement.

It's a poorly written statement. It addresses inaccurate statements in this NTOA Blog bullet (slide #6 of the FBI briefing):

Officers fired on the subject and hit him in the left arm, completely shattering the bone. He was also hit five times in the chest and abdomen. All rounds penetrated less than 1". All of the rounds expanded fully but did not cause incapacitation due to the lack of penetration. According to the Medical Examiner, none of the rounds caused any life threatening injuries. The subject also received one round into the front of his throat, it penetrated less than 1" as well. The Medical Examiner stated that the recovered rounds were in pristine condition (still had rifling marks on them).

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

.40 S&W JHP produces around 440 foot lbs, I find it hard to believe that one inch of human flesh can stop that.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

This shooting and the two versions of it have surfaced a few times in different places.

My understanding is the briefing(s) that has been posted on the Internet is incomplete. For more information see (post #4 by DocGKR) - http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=88907

There are bullets that did expand and stay in the body, apparently not going deep enough for best effect.

More likely the bullets penetrated deeply enough (they're 180gr bullets which share the same sectional density as .45 ACP 230gr bullets) but they did not hit or damage anything critical to immediate survival

 

[Prosser]

We are ignoring the possibility of squib loads, or HP's that are not filled correctly, too light. That shot in the throat has me really wondering if something wasn't wrong with the rounds.
There isn't much there to stop a bullet...

Wonder what construction failure rate is in HP ammunition?

 

[Certaindeaf]

"As ignorant as this may potentially sound, I've been doing some reading up on this lately and that is actually where my curiosioty stems from. I know that JHP is the by far more commonly accepted self defense round, but why?."

They do more damage. Perhaps shoot a rabbit or somesuch with both.
However, FMJ's out of even an 9x19 pistol could/have come in handy for getting an elephant to quiver after it's down.

 

[Prosser]

I don't buy that. A high velocity, light for caliber FMJ, with a LFN or TC type profile is quite capable of doing overall damage equal to most hollowpoints in service calibers. The service caliber cases are really too small for the weight the HP's really need to be to be ideally effective.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I hear what you're saying. Personally, I generally use cast by me swc's out of everything I shoot, 9mm heavies included. They work very well. I'm fairly happy but know a properly constructed jhp has certain value.

 

[ATLDave]

This seems to be an erroeous statement.



That's a Federal EFMJ expanded after about an inch of gel.

I'm not sure that disproves the statement. You read the statement to mean that it is impossible for a .40 projectile to expand after only an inch of penetration. I wonder if the author meant that a projectile that has only enough energy to penetrate one inch of flesh (or gel) does not have enough energy to deform the lead and copper and thereby expand.

IOW, you are reading the statement as asserting a causal connection between penetration and expansion, whereas the author may only have referenced a correllational connection, with a common cause of sufficient (or insufficient) energy for both expansion and penetration.

All that said, your warnings about the validity of always/never statements are well-taken!

 

[Shawn Dodson]

We are ignoring the possibility of squib loads, or HP's that are not filled correctly, too light. That shot in the throat has me really wondering if something wasn't wrong with the rounds.

There are at least two plausible explanations. The bullet clogged with down jacket clothing material, preventing expansion, possibly because the angle thru the clothing in which the bullet traversed presented a thick barrier of clothing. The bullet penetrated the body at an unusual angle, with a long penetration path, and simply came to rest where it did.

The second possibility is the bullet first passed thru sheetmetal, which clogged the cavity and prevented expansion. The bullet penetrated the body at an unusual angle, with a long penetration path, and came to rest where it did.

There are no reports that any of the officers' pistols experienced a stoppage, which would rule out a squib load theory.