Glock vs. 1911 1000 Round Match in OK 10/20/2007

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LOL.......Again you have more faith in the system than I do....But then again I have been around the block once or twice and know how the system works.

The Glock is good platform, but it is no better than some others...It boils down to price..

kind of like when the Texas DPS got 357 Sigs in Sig 229s....no one mentioned how much Sig subsidized the deal!

Prove me wrong...I will be happy to concede!

Glocks in this matched failed very early....if they are the most reliable platform...should they all not have completed the course????
 
Basically the way you`re putting it is like Glock versus the entire line of 1911 models in any brand or manufacturer which would actually be unfair to the Glock. It`s like Glock versus the world or something.

If anything, the advantage is in Glock's court. They are not made by 20 companies with 20 different QC departments, 20 different assembly lines, and parts made by three times as many different suppliers.
 
DURABILITY: Drop it in the mud,water sand,slam it against the wall, hit it with a hammer and it will fire.

I think you are missing the point of this match.

Your statement is simply not true. Any pistol can fail on any given day and that is the beauty of this match. No one is saying Glocks suck, but facts are facts. The Glock dropped out just as fast as any 1911.

If they are as uber-dependable as you claim they ALL should have finished the 1000 rds with 0 problems, correct?
 
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Holy crap! This was a match comprised of 16 guns of which ONLY 2 finished the course of fire, one Glock and one 1911. Die hard proponents of each platform should be rather embarrassed by the lackluster performance of both.

Woodstock, you can claim all you want about sales and testing of Glocks, but I have been in 5 of these matches and seen lots of Glocks fail and several actually break parts. I can say the same for 1911s. I have seen springs break, pins break, pins walk, sights walk, and even seen 3 Glocks take a dump right there while firing, the base of the mag releasing with the spring shooting out followed by all the cartridges and follower like so many turds. That is truly a gun crapping out of the match.

Neither platform performs as well as its reputation is big. It is that simple.
Neither platform lives up to its purported reputation when put to the test by the real people who shoot these guns.
 
Don't forget the corollary to your post Double naught- Based on the types of errors....

The owners failed the pistols as often as the pistols failed the owners.

What you're shooting isn't as important as the time you spend practicing to shoot it.
 
I'd love to try this. It would be great to get something like this together here in Maryland. 1000 rounds sounds like a good warm up for one of my Baers. ;)
 
If you guys do this again in the North TX area (or even a relatively short drive from here) let me know. I'd like to enter a 10mm Glock. I'd need some advance notice as I don't have enough ammo on hand at the moment.
 
1000 rounds sounds like a good warm up for one of my Baers

You would think so until you don't properly seat a magazine and then you are out.[:D]
 
Sorry, at the first 1000 round match I attended, Glockers referred to some of the 1911 guys as "old fogies" because they shot an antiquated platform. 1911 Fogies called Glock guys "Glockers" that I took to be an insulting term. So I thought I would be an equal opportunity offender.

Okay, I have preliminary data. One data sheet is missing and there is some question as to exactly when some guns went out apparently due to inconsistent notation. Remember, the match was shot as a sort of all or none match. Either you finished the COF or you did not. Suffice the second post I made at the start to give some indication of the guns that were out of the match early on. Note that by midday, which was lunch, only 5 guns remained (post #3).

Model/Final disposition
Colt 1991 A1 Finished
G17 Finished

G17L Bad primer of a reload (very late in the match)
G21 Fail to lock back on empty
G? "Sights off" (very late in the match)
G21? Stove pipe
Kimber Tac II Double Feed (reported originally as bad mag)
10-8 1911 Fail to feed
G17 Grip attachment interfered with mag catch
G17 Mag failure to lock (fail to seat?)
G35 Fail to feed
G21 Slide lock premature, fail to feed
Colt Cmdr. Fail to seat mag
Wilson CQB Fail to lock back on empty (reported as fail to feed on score sheet, but this one was mine)
G17 Fail to lock back on empty
 
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Can you add the round-count at which each of the failed pistols dropped?

That would be interesting!

Doc2005
 
Thanks everyone for the warm welcome...

I'd like to make a few more comments.

Someone asked about the hard chrome finish on my gun making it smoother. Maybe, I don't know. I have mostly stainless guns and a couple of blued ones. Quite frankly they all feel smooth to me, but the smoothest I ever remember feeling was not mine, it was a carbon steel gun built from the ground up using a frame and slide with oversized rails that were fit by hand.

I'm left-handed, so all my 1911's have ambidextrous safeties. I find them more comfortable to shoot with a beavertail, which means they get Commander hammers. I like Heinie sights. I hate rust, so guns with stainless or hard chrome finish tend to get used a lot and guns with a blued finish tend to spend more time in the safe.

Knocking off the sharp edges and beveling the magazine well make the gun more comfortable and easier for me to use. I also bump up the recoil spring to a Wolff 18.5 conventional for a more authoritative slide stroke. The particular gun I used in the shoot happens to have an Ed Brown barrel because I wanted the corrosion resistance of stainless steel, not because the stock barrel shot poorly.

I really don't think these are radical modifications. I have owned Colt XS series guns that came from the factory with a beavertail and Ambi safety, and I shot them just fine in stock form.


Have I mentioned I carry a Glock 22 every day as a duty gun? I just happen to like 1911's, but I have no problem with Glocks.

Some of the shooters in this match failed their guns. One experienced shooter showed up to the match with a gun he had not personally zeroed after having someone else install sights on it. Another shooter did not fully insert a magazine and though the gun, magazine, and ammunition were all capable of performing, they never had the chance due to his error.

I have shot this match 4 times and failed twice. I failed once due to a stupid error I made. I failed to complete the match another time because of a defective factory round which I could have spotted if I had visually inspected each round of my ammunition prior to the match.

Bottom line.... if you want to have the highest probability of shooting 1000 rounds without a failure, shoot your gun a lot first to make sure there are no problems with it. Any reliability or accuracy problems should be addressed to your satisfaction, or the gun is a paperweight and not worthy of ownership. Make sure you are familiar with its point of impact vs. point of aim at the distances you plan to shoot, using the ammunition you plan to shoot.

Make sure all of the magazines you plan to use function properly in your gun (including locking the slide back on empty, and replace springs if needed) with the ammunition you plan to use. Clean and lubricate your gun immediately prior to the match. Clean your magazines immediately prior to the match, but don't leave any lubricant in them because it is likely to attract grit and cause them to malfunction.

Use factory ammunition, not reloads. Visually inspect each round of ammunition you plan to use. (I lost last year due to a primer blowout that tied up my gun. The primer hole in the round was visibly deformed and would have been detected upon visual inspection.) Using the barrel of your gun as a guage, make sure each round of ammunition you plan to use fits in the chamber.

Some of the above is a bit tedious. I admit that I don't check all my factory ammo. I just open up the boxes and stuff it into my magazines as fast as I can during the match. I also realize that if I wanted to absolutely give myself the best chance of success, I would go through each of the steps above. I admit that if I skimp on any of the above, it is ME who is lessening my chances of success, not whether I shoot a Glock or a 1911.

Seriously folks, alll of the stuff above is common sense. I don't mean to be condescending in pointing it out, but we seem to loose track of some pretty basic principles and start pointing fingers and/or jumping to unfounded conclusions when we see failures that could have been prevented.

And last but not least.... it's just for fun anyway, so lighten up and enjoy, or move on and don't worry about it :)

-Tim

I'll step down from my soap box now :)
 
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i'd take you up on the factory vs reload challenge. maybe at the next THR get together we can do one of these.
 
Hi Taliv...

Sounds fun, but please understand it was not my intent to disparage any particular person's reloads... just to point out that (in my opinion) using reloaded ammunition is one of those things a shooter can do which would reduce the statistical probability of completing the course of fire without a malfunction.

Also, if a Glock shooter used reloaded ammunition and experienced a failure to fire, it does not necessarily mean Glocks suck and 1911's rule or vice-versa, but it may mean reloaded ammunition tends to generally be less reliable than factory ammunition...OR NOT.... Maybe the ammo gremlins just picked on that particular shooter for the heck of it that day :)

-Tim
 
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Interesting....

the pistol is a carbon steel Colt 1991A1 Government Model. It has been modified with the addition of a Commander hammer, beavertail grip safety, ambidextrous thumb safety, Ed Brown barrel and bushing, Heinie sights, and a hard chrome finish. I was running CMC Powermags and Federal American Eagle 230 grain ball.

a FrankenColt......

The Glock.....was a Glock...
 
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the pistol is a carbon steel Colt 1991A1 Government Model. It has been modified with the addition of a Commander hammer, beavertail grip safety, ambidextrous thumb safety, Ed Brown barrel and bushing, Heinie sights, and a hard chrome finish. I was running CMC Powermags and Federal American Eagle 230 grain ball.
a FrankenColt......

The Glock.....was a Glock...


The Glock was not.......a Glock. It had been worked over too.
 
I would like to see a stock G-17 (Around $550.00), against a Stock 1911....
+1. A G17, G19, G22, and G23 versus a SA GI, SA Mil-Spec, RIA 1911, and something a bit high-dollar... STI, Kimber, or Les Baer.

BONE STOCK. I doubt a Honda Civic would be as reliable if I gutted the engine and installed a turbo on it in my garage.
 
OK... You got me. My gun is a FankenColt. Is my Baer Custom Carry a Franken 1911 too? Keep in mind it came from the factory with everything I added to my Colt, except the corrosion-resistant finish. If I send it back to Baer for a hard chrome finish, will that make it a Franken 1911 then? What about a Colt XS with a factory ambi, beavertail, Commander hammer, and 3-dot sights...Real 1911 or Franken? Is a Springfield 1911-A1 a Franken gun because of the ILS mainspring housing? Maybe they are all Franken guns because they deviate from the original 1911 design... just like all the 1911A1's used to save the world in WWII were Franken guns because of the A1 modifications to the original design. Maybe the ones made by Colt were OK, but those made by Remington Rand were Fanken because they were not Colts?

Right now i'm carrying a Glock 19. I don't like serrated triggers, so I put in a smooth trigger meant for a full-sized Glock. Oh yeah.... my Department requires a NY1 trigger spring and 5 pound disconnector or an 8 pound disconnector with the standard trigger spring. (I have chosen the former.) Is my gun a FrankenGlock, or is it OK now, but becomes Franken if I add night sights?

I quit. You guys win :)

-Tim
 
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Sounds fun, but please understand it was not my intent to disparage any particular person's reloads... just to point out that (in my opinion) using reloaded ammunition is one of those things a shooter can do which would reduce the statistical probability of completing the course of fire without a malfunction.

yep, I understand. particularly in the past 2 years, i've seen a LOT of issues with factory ammo, even supposedly quality stuff.
 
What a way to rile up the troops. :evil:

Both are great guns, I like the 1911 better because of the grip and the single stage trigger.

Good job showing the world that all guns are mechanical and prone to failure.
 
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