Glock vs. 1911 1000 Round Match in OK 10/20/2007

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hey, another useful piece of data you should collect for the next match is an estimated round count through the pistols prior to the start of the match.

for instance, were the 3 glocks that failed almost NIB? or did they have 20k rnds of IDPA competition through them already?

i'd be curious to hear how many total rounds that wilson has through it as well.
 
It is always funny to read on the internet how many peoples guns never have a malfunction. I rarely find that to be true in the classes I have taken. Of course if you never shoot, or only shoot slow fire at targets then you many never have a problem.

BINGO!

The more these type shoots happen the REALITY of shooting under the eye of a "judge" changes the results. The classic statements, "it was a bad round", "it was just dirty", "I didn't XYZ", "but it's not the gun." YEA!

In real life, under stress, tired, inattention, etc... STUFF happens. It is ALL part of gun fighting. It is amazing that folks don't believe their personal "Death Ray" is mortal and can and will fail under fire. Regardless of what the manufacturer, gun writers, and the guys you go drinking with say, ALL GUNS BREAK, ALL GUNS WEAR OUT, ALL GUNS NEED "PROPER" MAINTENANCE. Shocking isn't it?

Denial, the drug that just keeps on giving.

Go figure.

Fred
 
Things to fix for sure

Yeah one problem DNS pointed out was the desparity between what he reported and what I reported. He knows where his gun failed and on what stage and I as the reader of the score sheet did not know which stages had been fired and which had not so if he says he went 83 rounds before a problem then I stand corrected.

Next time I will provide a means to determine the sequence of the stages fired. Each year a little tweaking makes it better.

what does it actually prove? Only what you make of it and like most things in life it depends on your point of view.

I am out of here. See you next year. LM :D
 
this is a great thread and a great idea.

would you be open to allowing other platforms (like HK and SIG) into the contest at some point? i would be bored to tears just looking at glocks and 1911's fail all day. :p

seriously, this would be a fun idea to set up in my neck of the woods with a bunch of pistoleros.
 
Blackhawk,
It must be something in the water out there, here in Ct the only time a Glock fails to fire is when it has a dud round in the chamber.

There must be some magic over there by Hartford, 'cause in my part of CT Glocks jam, fail to fire, and even go "boom" just like any other pistol. The most "reliable" (i.e. least failures, not zero, but least number) pistol I've seen at our IDPA matches has been the Berretta 92. Any pistol will malfunction and it is interesting how internet pistol reviewer state their pistols never fail.

chieftain, you speak the truth. It is what it is...a man made mechanical device that will fail.

Nice test though. Maybe we should have one in CT...
 
I will tell y'all what. I have a place where a small group of us can shoot. I have been in touch with JohnKSa and Littlemac on this for planning issues and in touch with several more of you just to see if there is enough interest. Here is what I would like to propose. This may be refined, but the general ideas seem solid.

I will host a 1000 round match at my place for up to 12 shooters. It will be in the late winter or early spring and take place just south of the Red River in North Central Texas about 90 minutes from of DFW airport. Judging from Littlemac's experience at his matches, that means I can probably accept 16-18 shooters of which 1/4-1/2 will fail to show. If we have a surplus of shooters, I will be glad not to shoot and just RO.

The preliminary course of fire will be this...

20 stages of 50 rounds per stage
All 50 rounds are to be shot within a set time, say 90 seconds (barring malfs)
Every malf will be recorded for the full duration or until shooter/gun quits.
No gun will be allowed to be serviced once the first shot is fired. So no cleaning, lubing, wiping, tightening, repairing, or otherwise adjusting, etc.

Malfunctions will be noted as to when they occurred in the stage and described based on descriptive and NOT diagnostic parameters. For example, a hammer drop on a live round that does not detonate will be a FAIL TO FIRE and not be called a hard primer, light primer strike, or bad primer since a determination of the of these specific causes would require a detailed examination of all the components involved before the issue could be resolved. Similarly, a FAIL TO FEED issue won't be attributed to bad ammo, weak mag spring, or a weak recoil spring. And so on.

The malfunction will be cleared by the shooter while being documented by a recordkeeper and the shooter will then finish the stage.

Requirements:
1. Shooters much have state concealed carry permit or LEO certs. That is just the screening process since few of us will actually know each other other before the match.
2. 7 magazines or more for their gun and the mags must hold at least 7 rounds. Each stage will be shot starting with one in the chamber and then the 7 mags so that shooters all have a comparable number of magazine changes.
3. 1000 rounds of ammo
4. Semi auto pistol for the match
5. Typical eye and ear protection

Strongly suggested aspects...
1. Stock pistols, ESPECIALLY PISTOLS THAT NEVER MALFUNCTION
2. Factory ammo

Targets will be steel targets. There will be approximately 4 different setups shot 5 times each. Unlike Littlemac's matches, you don't have to hit the target for a shot to count. Distances will be varied and some longer range shooting (50 yards or so) will take place.

Anyone with formal RO experience that can help run the match is encouraged. Everyone will be pressed into service to help expedite things, be it record keeping, target maintenance, basic cleanup, etc.

PM me with an email address if you want to attend. Those of you with whom I have been in contact, if I don't have an email for you, please PM me. I will take your suggestions for modifications to the match parameters via email, especially once the match date is set.

Credentials will be required at the time of the match, but will not be copied or otherwise recorded.
 
i can't go to texas this winter, but i can host a similar match in middle-TN. (except i don't want to see your credentials)
 
(except i don't want to see your credentials)

You`ve got to ask for`m. You don`t want to get some "crazies" at your place do ya? Simple CCL`s would work.

I said "got to" you`re grown so I suppose that you can do what you`d like. No offense intended.

If I could get a sponser, I`d try one of these matches down here in MS.
I know lots of guys who claim to have "fail proof" handguns and would probably love it at least until their "failproof" gun fails. hahahaha
 
Hey DNSPY, PM me some info on "how to`s" and the rules that you`ve came up with thus far if you can. I`ll make a loop around here to some of the local gunstores and a few friends and see what it looks like down here.

The only problem that I forsee is that guys probably will not want to put their guns through such torture. I mean, you`re talking about a barrell assembly is almost automatic after such a match along with the expense of the thing. Other than that, we`ll see.
 
The only problem that I forsee is that guys probably will not want to put their guns through such torture. I mean, you`re talking about a barrell assembly is almost automatic after such a match along with the expense of the thing. Other than that, we`ll see.

Please don't tell me you have started the whining by proxy already. You aren't going to make it, but are making up excuses for others? That was the cool thing about the TDSA match and Littlemac's matches. It is all about put up or shut up. I don't care why people don't want to attend, can't, or won't. They aren't part of the solution.

Contrary to opinions, this is hardly a torture test. At worst, guns in good repair simply get dirty and gum up a bit and then don't function properly which results in a malfunction. It may be an endurance test, but we ain't lubing the guns with diatomaceous earth, loading them up with charge +50% loads, or shooting them while on fire.

I don't know what you are asking for in regard to how tos and rules. The rules are in post 106. What "how tos" are you talking about?
 
The only problem that I forsee is that guys probably will not want to put their guns through such torture. I mean, you`re talking about a barrell assembly is almost automatic after such a match along with the expense of the thing. Other than that, we`ll see.

Any of my pistols that would need a barrel after this 1000 round challenge, I would consider defective.

The Highest round gun I own is a SIG 228 with about 37,500 rounds through it. Yea, close to forty Thousand.

But as to my 1911's, my highest round 1911 right now is 11,700 on my #1 Kimber Warrior. And I know it is defective. Nothing breaks (all the MIM, and non hand finishing not withstanding). I run 181/2lb springs in mine vs stock. All ammo shot is full strenght factory230gr hardball for a power level of 192. In competition I run a buffer. IN my CCW a Colt Gunsite Pistol I do not run buffers.

I began campaigning a Glock 34 in the Steel Challenge this summer. I haven't gone back to check but I have approximately 4300 rounds through it. For IDPA and Bowling Pins I still prefer my #1 Warrior. (May begin using #2)

Fred
 
You`ve got to ask for`m. You don`t want to get some "crazies" at your place do ya? Simple CCL`s would work.

never been to a shooting range where they asked to see my ID. not that i'm really opposed to it. i'm just not concerned. events like this attract "knob creek crazies" not "axe-murderer crazies" :)


Please don't tell me you have started the whining by proxy already.

no doubt!
 
...never been to a shooting range where they asked to see my ID.
I've been to at least two that take your photo ID and keep it until you're done shooting. I've been to others where they take down personal information.

Besides, this is not a public shooting range, this is DNS' private property.
 
Please don't tell me you have started the whining by proxy already.
Wow.
The Highest round gun I own is a SIG 228 with about 37,500 rounds through it.
Must keep good records. You shoot a thousand at a time? in 50 minutes? just curious. I`ve got a Mossberg 12 guage that`s probably had 50 or 60 thousand rounds through it. Great gun and?????

I`d love to shoot in your match and I was only stating expected questions of "why" that I`d get when approaching my shooting buddies and gunstore owners about it. I didn`t expect to get such a reply from you but Ok.

After speeking with my freind, a gunsmith with Extreme Outfitters, and the gunsmiths at Gander Mountain, they`ve informed me that ANY gun, whether it be a 100 dollar piece of junk or a 2500 dollar gun can fail at any given time regardless of their condition, which I had already assumed. In my discussion, they just happened to say the exact same words,"crapshoot" and "luck of the draw" along with the fact of this type match only increasing the chances of a failure "down the line" when you may need it the most. They gave me a list of parts that I may need for the ultimate edge for the two guns that I`d thought of participating with and a list of parts that would very likely be affected by this type match. I think that any new style of shooting sport is great but I think that this may be more suited for the more wealthy individuals. I guess I`ll stick with the more contemporary styled shooting but I wish you guys the best and hope that this grows into it`s own monster. Good luck to you guys.
I`ve enjoyed this thread. It`s been, for the most part, very informative and there`s a wealth of information for everyone. solong
 
I`ve got a Mossberg 12 gauge that`s probably had 50 or 60 thousand rounds through it.

60,000!?! Seriously??? That's a round a day for over 160 years! Heck, that's a box a day for over 6 years!

Got a pic of that Mossberg? It must look pretty used.

Wait, never mind the shotgun, let's see a pic of your shoulder.
 
I`ve been shooting it for about ,well I can`t remember but it was my dad`s until he passed away. I actually kept it most of the time and hunted almost EVERYTHING with it as a kid. My buds and I shoot skeets most every weekend in a dirt pit nearby so yeah, we get a deal on paper shells and shoot the crap out of`m. Last weekend I don`t actually keep count man, but just two of us shot 18 boxes.You`d be surprised. hahaha Oh , a pic, OK Yeah it`s beat to death but it has NEVER failed me EVER. and I love it just the way it is.

How`s this for a pic? Excuse the mess.
 

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After speeking with my freind, a gunsmith with Extreme Outfitters, and the gunsmiths at Gander Mountain, they`ve informed me that ANY gun, whether it be a 100 dollar piece of junk or a 2500 dollar gun can fail at any given time regardless of their condition, which I had already assumed. In my discussion, they just happened to say the exact same words,"crapshoot" and "luck of the draw" along with the fact of this type match only increasing the chances of a failure "down the line" when you may need it the most. They gave me a list of parts that I may need for the ultimate edge for the two guns that I`d thought of participating with and a list of parts that would very likely be affected by this type match. I think that any new style of shooting sport is great but I think that this may be more suited for the more wealthy individuals. I guess I`ll stick with the more contemporary styled shooting but I wish you guys the best and hope that this grows into it`s own monster. Good luck to you guys.

Got it. Your gunsmiths took a look at your gun and said there wasn't any way it was going 1000 rounds without some parts being replaced and even then they would not stand by there work. Between the repairs, ammo, and wear and tear, you can't afford the match. I fully understand your excuses.

From Woodstock72000's post (#21)
Isn`t it funny how quickly excuses are given from people that own the models that were indicated to fail without being there?
Yep, it is about as funny as how quickly excuses are given from people who aren't even going to be there. LOL

I just bought a Glock 22, .40 and the reason that I bought it is because it`s utilized by more police departments and government officials than any other. Tried and trued.
Tried and true, but willing to concede it may fail at any time for any reason? Do you really think all those departments buy Glocks because they believe they could fail at any time? Sorry, but but you have some conflicting statements.

I`d love to shoot in your match and I was only stating expected questions of "why" that I`d get when approaching my shooting buddies and gunstore owners about it.
Well in the spirit of the previous 1000 round matches, it is a Put up or Shut up kind of match. Originally, it was to quell some of the bickering between 1911 and Glock people as a fun grudge match.

Woodstock72000, you are a classic reason why we have the matches. You came on with lots of big talk, then started making excuses only AFTER I announced the match and invited folks like you to attend.

Wow.
 
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In my discussion, they just happened to say the exact same words,"crapshoot" and "luck of the draw" along with the fact of this type match only increasing the chances of a failure "down the line" when you may need it the most. They gave me a list of parts that I may need for the ultimate edge for the two guns that I`d thought of participating with and a list of parts that would very likely be affected by this type match.



Uh, It's only a 1000 rounds.
 
i can't go to texas this winter, but i can host a similar match in middle-TN. (except i don't want to see your credentials

Doing such a match would be fun.
I'm in
When and where? :)
 
DoubleNaught your TX match interests me, as I traditionally travel from the PRK to Las Cruces every march. I'd love to enter my Sig in one of these.

The biggest concern I'd have is that "failure to lock open on empty" is a DQ failure, the way I ride the slide release on the 226 would have me out in 10 rounds.
 
I've been to at least two that take your photo ID and keep it until you're done shooting. I've been to others where they take down personal information.

Besides, this is not a public shooting range, this is DNS' private property.

i don't mind if anyone else does it. i don't mind showing my id if i can make it to that match.

choclab, dunno. maybe late january or march?
 
Got it. Your gunsmiths took a look at your gun and said there wasn't any way it was going 1000 rounds without some parts being replaced
hahaha Man you`re really out there! All talk?!! What are you talking about?? Read my posts here and explain yourself.

Or Don`t, I don`t care, I have great handguns of 4 different Manufacturers including Glock,Ruger,CZ and now Smith and Wesson. I think I`ll take the advise of the pros. So again I say to you, have fun.
 
1,000 rounds used to be about 2 weekends' worth of shooting for me. Assuming I get my CHL etc by that time, I'm game.
 
I've been to at least two that take your photo ID and keep it until you're done shooting. I've been to others where they take down personal information.

Besides, this is not a public shooting range, this is DNS' private property.

I have been to many ranges across the country that required ID, and held your Drivers License while shooting there.

Besides, all else aside, His house, his rules. Don’t like’em don’t come. That is exactly what it means to be an American on his own property.

Quote:
The Highest round gun I own is a SIG 228 with about 37,500 rounds through it.

Must keep good records. You shoot a thousand at a time? in 50 minutes? just curious.

My record keeping is actually pretty sorry. Ask my accountant some time. But I do keep records.

NO, I did not shoot a thousand at a time. I did shoot as many as 500 in a several day match. I have shot 2000-3000 in various training classes, over the course of a long weekend or week. My own training sessions are usually about 200 rounds. My fun shoots can get up into the 500 range on a gun if I have my family with me. Both my daughters prefer 45’s. My oldest likes the Glock 30, my youngest at 4’10” prefers ole’ slab side, 1911 Government.

That 228 was my competition gun for about 3 years, in the 90’s. I chose SIG at that time because I was transitioning from competing with revolvers. I had tried many of the readily available Semi Auto’s including Glock, and didn’t think they could give me the combination of reliability and ease of function.

My Dept carried SIG 226 in 9mm at the time. I like SIG’s, arguably, in my opinion, I believe those West German and Early German SIG’s with the stamped metal slides were some of the most reliable semi Automatic handguns ever made. I hang on to mine. (except that 225 that got away)

The biggest concern I'd have is that "failure to lock open on empty" is a DQ failure, the way I ride the slide release on the 226 would have me out in 10 rounds

I shot SIG’s competitively as stated above, and after the first month never had that slide lock problem again. During my SIG Competitive days is when I transitioned to a thumbs forward grip. Fly the right thumb, and it will not happen. Watch Earnest Langston if you can find any video of when he campaigned SIG’s and won the IDPA National title with a SIG 220 a few years ago.

As to 10 rounds, in this kind of competition I would bring the hi cap/normal magazines. 15 rounds in 9 and 12 rounds in 40/357 for the SIG’s. Or if you have some of the factory SWAT mags, they will hold 20 rounds in 9mm.

I think I`ll take the advise of the pros. So again I say to you, have fun.

I think that’s a good idea for you, stick to what other people tell you. We will have fun.

Something here doesn’t pass the stink test. I own S&W‘s, Ruger‘s, and Glocks and a bunch of other marks. I don’t own a CZ. Could you send us the name of these “Professional” Gunsmiths that say these guns can’t make a 1000 round shoot? If they are in business, you would not be giving away “private” information. After all by your definition they are “Professional’s”.

Even your own story, 60,000 rounds through a mossy 500 shotgun. I would not say it can’t happen, I am just a bit skeptical. Understand my primary defense shotgun is the Mossy 590, which is a hardened/militarized version of the 500 so I am familiar with the strengths and weaknesses of the weapon. I have about 3300 rounds through mine. I have replaced parts and had a ‘smith’ replace parts over the years although I prefer to do as much work as possible on my own weapons.

I have seen 100,000 round pistols still working (not my own). I have seen 25,000 round rifles still working, But I have never seen a 60,000 thousand round shotgun still working. Saw a 170,000 round Glock 17 fail with the lower barrel lugs shear on the original barrel.

All those above weapons had good maintenance and ALL had work and repairs done to them or even rebuilds. But every competition pistol I have ever seen would normally be able to run a1000 rounds without a problem.

Go figure.

Fred
 
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