Glock vs. 1911 1000 Round Match in OK 10/20/2007

[Littlemac]

Next Round of Trials

So when are you Naysayers going to put on one of these matches. If you want to put in Sigs or Baers or whatever there is nothing stopping you, but you. You don't like the rules? Ok make up your own

The next one of this series will be in October of 2008. If you want an invitation you have to get one of the current attendees to vouch for you. That is the way it has worked for the last few years and it has proved exceptional. There are exceptions after you have provided your bonafides that can be verified.

This match isn't for everyone and I understand some of you are skeptical, that is OK you don't have to play. You don't even have to read the thread, but from the looks of it, lots of folks are interested.

Most of the folks, who attend, have such a good time, they almost always come back to compete another year and to see lots of friends.

This thread has taken a turn I did not expect. When is a glock a glock and when is a 1911 a 1911? Strange. I guess in keeping with Big Boy rules, if there has been any modification then it is a frankengun?

I recognize DNS and TimB but I don't recognize 455 SD. Out of T Town?

To the attendees, Whew what a time? After picking up brass for 4 hours, I got tired and left some. Sorry we did not get the pneumatics up and running, but hopefully soon I spoke with the manufacter today and have a schematic for the wiring. Keep your eye on the email, 2008 date to be sent shortly. Thanks for the ideas on the next match. Turning over spinners, small targets up close and larger ones in back. Maybe not so much work in resetting? That would be good. Huh

LM

 

[taliv]

The next one of this series will be in October of 2008.

i could maybe make that. where?

I don't have a problem with the rules, other than maybe make it "glocks vs 1911s vs MAC10s" that way i could get through my 1000 rnds and head back to TN with a little daylight left

 

[[email protected]]

Doublenaughtspy, This has been a great thread. I`ve read pretty much every comment and it`s one of the better threads that I`ve attended. Nobody got too huffy-puffy and it has been nice and smooth. I guess there will always be the "fogies" as you put it and the "glockers" again as you put it but as for me, I guess I`m a "GlogieCZ"
Good luck with your next matches and I`ll try to keep up with ya as time moves on.

Great job.

 

[Sir Aardvark]

Very good thread!

I had planned on doing something like this with my CCW guns (Glock 30 and SIG 229), and after reading this it gives added impetus.

Here is my question, though... what do you use for lube?

I use Mobil 1 on my slides, but I am not sure how it would hold up for 1000 rounds.

I would think a grease would work good, but might end up getting really dirty.

Also, it would be neat to see how a finish like Robar's NP3 or Rogaurd would affect the outcome.

 

[Dravur]

Is my Baer Custom Carry a Franken 1911 too? Keep in mind it came from the factory with everything I added to my Colt, except the corrosion-resistant finish

Nope, but it doesn't make it a Colt, either...

Not bashing the FrankenColt. I myself collect Colts and I have a soft spot in my heart for the brand. Just pointing out an interesting tidbit of info. You did do alot to the Colt to make it work. A number of parts were swapped. I did not see what was done to the Glock, if anything. If I missed it in here, then oops.

Im not saying the Glock is better than the 1911 (look, a can of worms and an opener... how strange...) I just found it funny that the 1911, to function well, had to have $1k worth of work done to it to make that particular one that reliable..... While the Glock, to my knowledge...did not.

Again, not saying that the 1911 is unreliable. Mine can shoot 10k rounds without a hiccup... underwater... after being in a Rhino Butt..... but, so can my Glocks.

Both are good guns and will do what you ask of them.

Now, the real question is... What is better.... 9MM or .45 ACP?... Discussion?

 

[455SD]

Dravur

A good portion of the work done on the 1911s is not necessarily done to make them work, but to better suit them to the shooter. My Commander worked perfectly with plastic parts and factory sights, but a beavertail, steel mainspring housing, and Novaks make it better for me.

Not all modifications are done just to make the gun run.

 

[1911RjB]

nice post thanks for all the info.

 

[45auto]

Match was well done and "it is what it is"...real life stuff IMHO.

I'm not sure why it matters if the 1911 was "gunsmithed" or not.

If anything, shooting a 9mm with less recoil and reloads in a full sized gun(17) should be a big advantage in a match like this. Particulary comparing to a 45 if hardball is used...much heavier recoil and twice the reloads.

 

[Littlemac]

We have an excellent shooter down in God country, who I will attribute this to. Hany's postion is that 9mm is best shot from a Glock and 45 acp is best shot from a 1911. From my experience that is the case.

I am by no means the authority on either one, but I have come to the bright side since 4 glock 21s seem to give me lots of trouble, but I did not finish the match with a 1911 either.

Are there any other folks out there who can put one of these matches on? Of course I won't be in the state VS state match since I can't get a pistol to go 1k rounds. There is always next year. L M

 

[MarshallDodge]

Again, not saying that the 1911 is unreliable. Mine can shoot 10k rounds without a hiccup... underwater... after being in a Rhino Butt..... but, so can my Glocks.

That's a bunch of BS. OOPS, I mean RS.

Have you ever tried deep frying your 1911? This would have to be the ultimate test: Deep Fried 1911

 

[455SD]

MMMMMM.

Deep fried 1911s. I think they may offer those at the Texas state fair next year.

 

[Rinspeed]

Great thread guys, sounds like a blast. Would suck to drive 500 miles to have a bad primer end your day though. Just a thought but it would be interesting to know the total round count of each pistol entered.

 

[chieftain]

I think this is a wonderful service we could offer the shooting world.

Multiple state 1911 vs Glock shoot offs. Keep the rules simple so as to prevent "house rules" distorting the results.

The same rules that applied above. Any time there is ANY FTF. the weapon/shooter is a DNF. I believe that operator error in a REAL firefight will get you just as dead as a failed firearm. Doesn't matter why. Even to make any one brand/style cheerleader happy. Loose sights if the weapon can still shoot does not DNF a weapon. ( I would suggest a note in the MISC box though.)

Great rules. Now keep simple records. Caliber, number of shots at DNF, and such. If possible simple failure categories. (A)Ammo failure, (B)operator failure (DFO), (C)weapon failure (ie failed to lock back, fail to feed etc. I would include all questionable failures in this class too.), (D)Broken weapon and or parts (includes buffers, springs, sights etc). I would also supply round count or approx round count. That is all I would "officially" require. Any other data/information would come under MISC.

The weapon log in Brand (for 1911's) model, caliber, Any and all non factory mods, including sights, grips, firing mechanism mods, slide stops etc. If parts were put in by an Armor, Gunsmith, or if the weapon is a "custom". Spring strengths (ie recoil, trigger springs (if not stated stock, what pounds.) Buffers used in either 1911's or Glocks must be stated.

Oh yea, I think the 1000 round count is a good measure. I would suggest shooting non reset steel targets just for time savings. but the course of fire should be up to the individual club. I don't think this should be a speed shoot either, but other members may differ on this. I don't see speed of shooting in this case offering any advantage or disadvantage to the reliability of the guns.

Most importantly, if we choose to get carried away with this, lets get some one to correlate the data from all over the country and/or world.

This could be fun and useful. Try not to complicate it though. the real strength and usefulness would be in it's simplicity. Oh I think a website with access open to the public is important with the results.

Let folks see the real results for themselves. I guess other makes and models of weapons could be added, but I think broad categories should be kept. ie SIG, GLOCK, HK, Beretta, 1911, With enough data, but not blindingly boring detail, this could become a defacto industry standard data site.

Anyway, good luck, contact me, I would love to add to this growing legend and my hats off to you fellows who pioneered the way.

WELL DONE!

Fred

 

[Littlemac]

I am certainly with you on targets that don't have to be reset. We had one stage with 6 whirly gigs(5 targets each) and 14 1/2 size poppers and to reset them after each shooter at each of 5 different yard lines was a lot of work. Lesson learned there.

I will try to get you some hard data on type of pistol and shots fired before failure published shortly if DNS doesn't beat me to it.

I went with steel, as you either hit it or you don't and there isn't a lot of discussion on what has cut the line and what hasn't and you don't have to add as many scores. I think that helps with the speed of the match.

One year we allowed all shooters with failures to stay with the group and shoot the same stages as those in compeitiion and we ran out of day light. Needless to say it was a long day. Some folks don't like being segrated after they have a failure. But it does speed things up for those still trying to go 1K without a problem.

Thanks for the constructive critque, that helps with next year. LM

 

[Littlemac]

Findings/ results for oct 07

Pistol Model Factory # of rounds Cause for Failure
or Reloads
Glock 21 R 2 Slide lock with mag
Glock 17 R 2 Failure to Feed
Kimber Tac II F 6 Double Feed
Wilson 1911 F 7 Failure to Lock Back
Colt 1911 F 8 Failure to feed
Glock 22 F 8 Stove Pipe
Glock 17 R 8 Mag failure to lock in
Glock 35 R 49 Failure to Feed
10-8 NY 1911 F 279 Failure to Feed
Glock 17 F 344 No Slide lock on Empty
Glock 21 F 977 Failure to Lock Back
Glock 17 F 980 Sight off
Colt 1911 F 1008 Finished course of Fire
Glock 17 R 1073 Finished course of Fire
Glock 17L R 1167 Bad Primer

This is the first attempt at a summary. There were different scribes and different notations, and different note taking styles, so please keep in mind this is subject to correction.

Interesting Huh. LM

Typed in the block it looks good but the preview sucks

 

[JohnKSa]

So roughly half the entrants were done before they fired 10 rounds!

I guess maybe I don't understand the round count figures. It looks like the last three guns in the list fired more than 1000 rounds. And the 17L looks like it had a failure at almost 1200 round count and yet it isn't listed as finishing the course.

 

[eldon519]

I'd like to see a .45ACP 1911 vs. .45ACP Glock match. Take some of the variables out of the game. .45ACP is a different animal. It's a bigger cartridge that operates at lower pressure. Between the large powder charge and the lower burn efficiency, it'll be a dirty cartridge. Geometry also comes into play. Some cartridges just feed better than others.

Best I can tell without calculating actual match statistics, .45ACP Glocks don't have anything on .45ACP 1911s as far as reliability goes.

 

[455SD]

From what I have seen in these matches, I've shot in three, 45acp 1911s vs Glock 21s would be no contest in favor of the 1911s.

 

[combatantr2]

A glock failure at less than 1000rounds? Cant be. Chuck Taylor did test a G17 to 100,000 with 1 failure, right? Of course thats what I read over the internet, it must be the truth

 

[Double Naught Spy]

So roughly half the entrants were done before they fired 10 rounds

I don't believe that is fully correct, but since we were in two squads, I was not fully up to speed with what was going on in the other squad while it was happening.

I shot the Wilson CQB and it failed during the 3rd stage. I had completed two stages for a total of 83 rounds. My guess is that the 7 round notation for the Wilson is that maybe it failed on the 7th round of stage 3. I don't recall where it failed in the stage. We stopped long enough to note the fault and then I finished the stage.

 

[45auto]

Double Naught,

Failure to lock back on an empty mag, or with ammo still left in mag?

 

[taliv]

midway's got a great sale on blemished hornady XTPs, et al... $8/100! they are going fast though. they had some flat points for $6/100 and when i put them in my cart they had qty 15, and by the time i checked out, they were in single digits

i'm feeling motivated to head out to my local range and run this 1000 rnd test myself. i'll have to practice a few times before the match this time next year.

 

[yongxingfreesty]

wow. those glocks were defective. out of all the glocks ive owned, ZERO malfunctions.

 

[1lostinspace]

lol I have shot 1000 rounds of wolf through my G17 and 21 in a day and have never had those problems as a matter a fact last year my friends family came with we went though a half of case one day and a case and a half the next.
Sounds like the guys your talking about are using Jack in the Box springs nad Guns.

 

[Charles S]

wow. those glocks were defective. out of all the glocks ive owned, ZERO malfunctions.

lol I have shot 1000 rounds of wolf through my G17 and 21 in a day and have never had those problems as a matter a fact last year my friends family came with we went though a half of case one day and a case and a half the next.
Sounds like the guys your talking about are using Jack in the Box springs nad Guns.

LOL...I am sure everyone else's gun's and skills are inferior to yours....Why don't you put your money where your mouths are and shoot the match. You can show us all how it is done.

I plan on shooting next year...If I get the invite and can work it our with my schedule.

It is always funny to read on the internet how many peoples guns never have a malfunction. I rarely find that to be true in the classes I have taken. Of course if you never shoot, or only shoot slow fire at targets then you many never have a problem.