GOA Accomplishments?

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Well, I don't much like either group attacking the other but my Daddy always said many hands make light work....GOA may advocate using a sledgehammer and the NRA may advocate using a scalpel.....GOA is a blunt instrument and NRA is a surgeon......GOA takes on all that would infringe the 2A and the NRA picks its fights carefully....

but we are all sets of hands making the work easier.

I support both financially and proudly and while I wish the bickering between them would end, they are both accomplishing things that allow us to have this forum and discussion, go hunting, have a CCW and defend our families, provide a last bastion against tyranny, etc.

Now, IMHO, the 2A already allows us all that, BUT since I live in the real world and not Disney World I understand the fact that we have had folks mis-interpreting and legislating away all of our individual rights (specified and unspecified) that are supposed to be guaranteed by the Bill of Rights for several decades now.

So, once again IMHO, any and all organizations that fight encroachments upon our individual rights are welcome to join the fray, just keep the infighting to a minimum and get on with the hard work - there is more than enough of that to go around. :)
 
hands make light work

I think this saying refers to situations where people are cooperating, not when one is attacking the other.

If you are trying to stack wood and I'm helping you, that makes light work.

If you are trying to stack wood and I am beating you over the head with a log, I don't think the saying applies.

I too wish the bickering would end and that gun rights advocates could work together on the things they agree on, and work independently without getting in each others' way on the things they disagree on.
 
...I noticed that right after Chemist308 joined The High Road on March 28, 2007, the very first message he posted was about how to stir up things about Pennsylvania gun rights.
What's even more unsettling is that Chemist308 posted his second message just about one hour later and it was on the very same subject. Not a different one...What's even more suspicious is that 19 out of the 31 message threads started by Chemist308 so far are designed to stir up people about gun politics. That's just about two thirds of the threads he started here. His signature also has a link to a gun rights organization! Doesn't that tell you something?
Oh no buddy, it's far worse than that. Look at his sig line. And what's even worse is he does it on other boards to, and even claims to take action :)
http://www.pafoa.org/forum/general-2/4517-idea-any-volunteers.html
http://www.pafoa.org/forum/pennsylvania-10/4653-hb-760-more-than-registration.html
http://www.pafoa.org/forum/monroe-49/7772-how-indian-mt-lake.html
http://www.pafoa.org/forum/pennsylvania-10/4929-all-guns-banned-10-years.html
The nerve of that guy--actually physically doing something about his gun rights, and trying to stir others to do the same :D
 
He paid his debt. If there is a problem with that, lets change the system. Why let someone who is still a threat out of prison? If it is such a huge concern this should be high on the "to do" list.

Poeple seem to miss a minor point. It's not whether that person is still a threat or not, it's that losing your 2A rights (along with your right to vote and hold public office, among others)
IS PART OF THE FLIPPIN' PUNISHMENT

Yes, boys and girls it's supposed to be a deterent factor. How many times do we see on this board someone ask a question about whether something is legal and get an answer to the effect of "Well, you could do it, but if you get caught you'll lose your 2A rights forever." Makes you stop and think before you do it. Hence, deters that person from committing a crime.


Full disclosure:
I am a NRA member, I know the NRA the Lobbyist in Springfield. I'll be the first to tell you they are not perfect, I don't always agree with their positions. But from talking with Todd, getting the background and seeing the political landscape for what it is, (not what I wish to see), I understand that the NRA often can only do what it can when it can......"When you're the Hammer; Strike. When you're the Anvil; Bear."

I also volunteer at the following NRA sponsored events:
Youth Shooting Sports Camps
Women's Firearm Safety Classes
Disabled Persons Shoot
NRA Junior Rifle Program
We're also working on getting a Junior Shotgun Program started, with the NSSF's and the NRA's support
Not to mention Hunter Safety Education, and other firearm training courses.
I have yet to attend any GOA sponsored event.

I will not be renewing my GOA membership due to their outright lies and dishonestly reagarding their so-called "Veterans Disarmament Bill" and their attacks on the NRA.

And my thoughts on "NO COMPROMISE". When all you say you'll accept is "All or Nothing" that's generally what you'll get......Nothing.

For all you NO COMPROMISE guys out there. Announce that to your significant other that you will no longer compromise, that it's your way or the highway......... and let me know how that goes over.






I got two couches if anyone's needs a place to sleep for a couple of days. ;)
 
Gaston 45, an even worse outrage is that the British shot innocent colonials at Lexington and Concord, rebels destroyed Fort Sumter, and the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. Time passes, situations change, and wise people don't focus on one event in order to exaggerate it into something bigger for the sake of making an unworthy point.

That article you've linked to is dated April 3, 2007, which at this moment was 270 days ago according to a date tracker at the head of that article. You ignore the date tracker and the date too so you can make a distorted snapshot. When you begin with your mind made up it's not hard to find proofs for what you believe by capturing one moment in time, focusing exclusively on it, and misrepresenting it as the entire story.

Sometimes, to paraphrase what you said, it's what a person doesn't do that is more telling.

Part of what you don't do is mention that on June 2, 2004--three years earlier--the NRA filed an amicus brief in support of this same case with the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia. That appeal's success is what led to the present situation in which the Supreme Court will rule.

You're correct that for a long time the NRA was nervous about the strategy being pursued by Robert Levy, one of the plaintiffs' attornies, and opposed it.

But you don't mention that Levy is not a gun owner and has no interest in guns or even gun owners except as they relate to his own interest. He says so, often.

Levy is a rich man who went to law school late in life and is motivated by a combination of his own political principles and the desire to accomplish something astonishingly brilliant in the law. There's nothing wrong with those motives but it's important to know that Levy doesn't have the same personal stake in this case as you, I, any other gun owner, or the NRA. Robert Levy is a high roller who wants to see how far he can build the pot and thinks he can win. He has enough money to fund everything himself, out of his own pocket. When I tried to contribute support for this case, Levy thanked me but refused to accept. Robert Levy has the money to do it all himself, wants to do it all himself, and he doesn't want gun rights groups to participate as leading players.

But Levy is not a gun rights activist and never claims to be one. This case for him is a carefully plotted game in which he thinks he can outsmart the experienced players. It looks now as if he is winning. That's wonderful.

If Robert Levy wins his game, I'm in a better place as the result and so are you. We'll cheer him louder even than we are now doing before this game is over. But if Robert Levy loses his game, we're worse off because he will have taken us in a bad direction. We will wail, complain, and lament what he did to us. That's how gun owners behave.

But it's most unwise to exaggerate either outcome at this point because neither you nor I are players in this game. We're on the sidelines watching nervously. A lot of people in this forum are nervous too because we all stand to lose a lot if the worst happens at the game's end. One thing is for sure if Robert Levy has a smashing defeat in this game: his ability to function as a gun owner isn't affected, because Levy is not a gun owner and has no interest in becoming one. Robert Levy is playing gun rights chess.

So unless you are an experienced Constitutional lawyer with a specialty in gun rights issues or an experienced high stakes strategist you're not even a pawn in this game: you're an amateur in the audience, watching the players on television, and criticizing their moves with all the skill of someone who doesn't know the rules of the game.

You've actually damned one of the players so you could praise part of the audience for not being on the field. "Well, at least the guys sitting in the stands next to me didn't make that play" is not good commentary. Yes, GOA didn't butt heads with Robert Levy, but that's because it didn't do anything at all except stand on the sidelines for years. Don't just do something, stand there is not what I consider the motto of an effective activist gun rights group. You do, and so does GOA. It's no surprise that people hold differing opinions about many things.

The NRA and Robert Levy differed about strategy for a long time. Levy wanted to risk everyone else's gun rights on his case; the NRA wanted to get a certain victory for DC residents to protect them for sure. It's easy to second guess the players and to be a Monday morning quarterback.

GOA has a different strategy, which you admire. The GOA strategy is to sit on the sidelines doing nothing but "appreciating" and criticizing until some point at which they can identify the winner of this game. Then they will rush onto the field, grab the ball, and shout "We won!" a lot so it can star in the victory parade. Just now--in the past few days--GOA has proclaimed that it will file an amicus brief too, but you members need to send more money to cover its expenses.

Your most serious omission lets you misrepresent the entire situation between the NRA and Robert Levy. Levy has made great efforts to thwart the kind of misrepresentation you've made. On December 3, 2007, for example, Levy said this about the NRA now:

“Their thinking was,” Mr. Levy said, “‘good case, might win in the appellate court but it could be a problem if it reaches the Supreme Court.’”

Wayne LaPierre, the N.R.A.’s chief executive officer, largely confirmed that characterization. “There was a real dispute on our side among the constitutional scholars about whether there was a majority of justices on the Supreme Court who would support the Constitution as written,” Mr. LaPierre said.

Both men said the N.R.A. and Mr. Levy’s team were now on good terms.

But you don't say any of that, presumably because you don't like that picture and prefer the distortion in your head. GOA does too.

For both Robert Levy and the NRA there was a long period in which they disagreed about strategy, each believing strongly in its position for good reasons, and then they came together. Step back and try to see things clearly and objectively for a moment so you can see that what really happened was compromise. GOA can't compromise. It's a "no-compromise" gun rights group. GOA is not a player and never will be a player. That's not its strategy.
 
Excellent Summary, Robert.

And for those who want to keep harping on the "pushing" of the DC Personal Protection Act as an attempt to derail the court proceedings, the NRA has been "pushing" this legislation for many years. It just never got too far prior to this lawsuit. Check this link:

http://usgovinfo.about.com/gi/dynam...mas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:h.r.03193:

As you will hopefully notice, this was introduced 9/25/2003, and if you look back you will find even earlier cases where the NRA had pushed for it. Bottom line is that the NRA had been fighting the DC laws for a long time before the Parker case, yet we still have people here who believe, actually WANT to believe, that this was done just to mess up Parker as GOA tells you.

My own opinion is that some in Congress saw this as a way to derail Parker and that is why it got so much attention just recently.
 
I agree with the premise of the OP, the GOA's tactics will get us nowhere. They are absolutist's, no compromise, unwilling to negotiate, type of people. This type of tactic does more damage than good. When a new gun law is proposed, do you stick your head in the sand, scream bloody murder, fight it tooth and nail, make yourselves look like a bunch of radical lunatics, piss off the politicians and the bill gets passed, then all they do is complain and whine. In my opinion, this is the GOA folks, they are counterproductive to the cause.

The NRA on the other hand, lobbies politicians, uses their clout on the hill, to stop, stymie, or modify otherwise bad legislation. The NRA is willing to work with people to get a desired result. Look at HR2460, the NICS improvement act, the NRA got many provisions it wanted into the bill, such as an appeals process for wrongull adjudication, among many other. The VPC has called HR2460 a "wishlist for the gun lobby". They no longer support this legislation, because the NRA had a hand in crafting the bill. The is NOT a veterans disarmament bill, the GOA is spreading lies to generate fear and opposition, once again, this is counterproductive. The GOA plays into the Brady's hands of "divide and conquer".
 
No, there is evidence that a relatively small portion agrees with him

To me, this looks like a case of denial. How many threads like this are out there? How many people side with the GOA in them? How many express distaste with the NRA's perpetual "compromise." I mean, you can say it's a "relatively small portion," but that doesn't jive at all with what I see. I realize you're not Wayne LaPierre, but the NRA would be wise to take note of all the discontent. I can't tell you how many people I've seen in threads just like this saying "well, I agree with the GOA, but the NRA's the only one with real influence, so that's where my money went" followed by skads of "+1."

So even among the NRA's membership, there are dues paying members that haven't joined GOA, but agree with the GOA's position, and have stuck with the "only game in town." Which to me, is the NRA's problem. Monopolies breed abuse. Many former NRA members are getting fed up with "compromise" moving to the GOA. I'm one of them. And when I see more aggressive defense of the 2nd, I'll come back.

Though, it took me 15 years to come back after the NRA failed to send me the freakin' HAT they promised. And honestly, I don't know if that's a more damning commentary on myself, or the NRA. Probably the former.
 
Well Robert, reading your game analogy, let me offer my amateur side-line view of it. I saw the quarterback take the snap, drop back in the pocket with three receivers wide open in man coverage. Then, our own team's star running back, for reasons I cannot fathom, attempted to tackle the quarterback.

Sure sure, maybe the quarterback's heart wasn't in the game, and we don't know what's going on in the locker room, and that QB's just going to sign with another team next year..... But I can guarantee you, that as an amateur on the side-lines, nervously watching, I'll be calling for that running back to ride the pine forever. Because you do NOT betray the TEAM.
 
I don't buy the football game analogy. It isn't true that the NRA was working against gun rights generally, or was motivated by anti-RKBA motives - therefore I don't believe "betrayal" really fits.

The NRA's legal team believed that the SCOTUS case based on the DC gun ban was a bad gamble, with high potential to do damage to the RKBA cause. Therefore they introduced legislation to lift the DC gun ban (which they actually had pushed for many times in the past). This would have lifted the DC gun ban, while also mooting the SCOTUS 2nd ammendment case.

You can argue that their legal team was wrong. You can argue that we are slam-dunk certain to get a favorable ruling for the SCOTUS. Or you can argue that even though the outcome is uncertain, it is a smart gamble to take this case at this time.

But trying to argue that the NRA was trying to promote an anti-RKBA cause is wilfully obtuse.

There was a disagreement over strategy between two parties who were and are both committed to RKBA. You can accuse the NRA of bad strategy, and say the DC case plaintiffs had a better strategy - if so, go ahead and make that case.

But it's ludicrous to call this a "betrayal."

By the way, if the SCOTUS rules against us, will you come out and admit that the NRA was right to try to avoid this case at this time?
 
I joined GOA because I agree with much of what they say about the NRA, and I hope supporting GOA will in some small way hold NRA's feet to the fire about getting too friendly with the people in government that they should be trying to keep under control. I stayed a member of the NRA because the legislature and the antis are still afraid of them. Note to GOA: I can afford both. And I'm pretty broke.
 
"it took me 15 years to come back after the NRA failed to send me the freakin' HAT they promised."

That's sad.

At first I wanted to join GOA and wanted to believe in them, but over the years they've convinced me that they aren't truthful.

John
Member www.vcdl.org
NRA Patron Life Member
 
Siglite, you just didn't understand anything I said and you don't understand the dynamics of Heller v. DC.

There is no our own team on this case.

From beginning to end the case belongs to Robert Levy, a rich lawyer. It is his own legal chess game pursued soley for his own motives. Levy is not "our quarterback." The case is not, never was, and never will be a team effort. That was part of what troubled the NRA. It is good reason to be troubled.

This is a game of winner-take-all being played by someone whose motives are not the same as yours and who is not risking his interest in owning and shooting firearms. Robert Levy has no interest in firearms, never owned one, and doesn't want to own one. Levy's motives are intellectual, political, and egocentric.

I am not criticizing Robert Levy, only trying to explain why thinking like yours and Gaston45's demonstrate complete misunderstanding of what has taken place and what is taking place. Your grandstand analysis can't work because you don't know this game or its rules.

I don't know how to explain any clearer than I did in that message you don't understand. Maybe you can understand if you print it out and read it more carefully.
 
JohnBT, your experience is much the same as mine.

I also wanted to join GOA and JPFO until I learned more about them. The more I saw from them, the more I found myself opposed to what they did and how they did it. I had thought that there might be some value in having them around as extremist groups that defined the lunatic wing of gun ownership so that sane gun owners looked more appealing.

Then I came to recognize that the kind of lunacy they represent plays into the hands of the anti gun forces. It's not that they are harmless crazies. They are among those who the public fears most: gun owners who can't see that they must live in society and don't care about anyone else.

Whenever there's the chance of a positive step forward, GOA fights against it. It's much less interested in fighting for gun rights and gun owners than it is in fighting against the NRA and destroying it.

I don't understand why GOA defenders have never noticed that GOA has never been on the same side as the NRA about anything. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day, but not for GOA or its members. For them the NRA is never right, never has been right, and never will be right. Their real enemy is the NRA, not the anti gun people. They are in total war against the NRA.

In contrast, the NRA never attacks GOA or JPFO. The most I have seen along those lines is that the NRA has responded to wild distortions, misrepresentations, and lies circulated by GOA, such as its twisting of the NICS Improvement Bill into something GOA calls "The Veterans Disarmament Bill." Whatever might be said about that bill, it does not "disarm" veterans.

What the GOA advocates can't get through their heads is that those of us who strongly oppose GOA do so because they hurt us. For me--and I think for you and others here who are focused on gun rights--these aren't battles between street gangs or sports teams. We're not fighting for our colors or our team jackets. This isn't high school.

Speaking only for myself, I'm not interested in being a cheerleader or arguing politics. I'm interested only in owning and shooting firearms. Neither Wayne LaPierre nor Larry Pratt interest me at all except in that context. I don't care about either of them as buddies and I don't care whether they like or hate each other. If GOA added anything positive to the mix, I'd be defending and promoting it. But doesn't help. It hurts, badly. And so do the satellite GOA "no-compromise" groups.
 
I don't know how to explain any clearer than I did in that message you don't understand. Maybe you can understand if you print it out and read it more carefully.

While you're bordering on insulting me, I still disagree with you. I have no reading comprehension problems. You can rationalize the star running back tackling his own quarter back all you want. Yet the perception remains unchanged. The NRA attempted to subvert Levy's case. I could care less if Levy has improper relations with Llamas if his case allows SCOTUS to define 2A as an individual right. There is no question at all that the NRA attempted to derail that case. All you can do is rationalize it to us nitwits with comprehension problems. It's becoming a familiar thing, this NRA rationalization.

Seems a wise man would stop, think for a second, and wonder why all this rationalization's necessary.

But then it's probably easier to just insult the intelligence of those who ask "why does the NRA keep selling us out?"
 
You can rationalize the star running back tackling his own quarter back all you want.

If you are going to insist on continuing this analogy, let's at least make it applicable. From the NRA's standpoint, in the expert opinion of their legal team, this situation was analogous to a quarterback who was disoriented and running toward the wrong goal, about to score a safety for the other team. In such an instance, it would be appropriate for the running back to tackle his own quarterback.

Again, the NRA was not trying to moot the case because they are wickedly pursing an anti-gun agenda. They were trying to moot the case because, in the expert opinion of their legal team, it was a bad move that was more likely to do harm than do good.

It can be intelligently argued that the NRA was wrong, and that this is a good case and a good court and a good time to try to get a favorable SCOTUS decision. If that is your opinion, please, support it. I hope you're right and I'd like to hear the reassuring arguments to support the opinion that we will get a favorable ruling.

However, it cannot be intelligently argued that the NRA was pursuing and anti-RKBA agenda by trying to get a law passed to overturn the DC gun ban. It does not make sense. It borders on paranoid conspiracy theory and demonstrates wilful ignorance of legislative and judicial realities.

The reason NRA supporters are often in the position of trying to explain things to NRA detractors is that NRA detractors' arguments very frequently ignore important legislative, political, and judicial realities.

Personally, I don't know enough about the SCOTUS to have an opinion on whether the NRA was right or the plaintiffs were right. If the NRA was wrong and the court rules in our favor, I will be happy.
 
If the NRA was wrong and the court rules in our favor, I will be happy.

If that happens, you and I both, and most folks around here will be quite happy. And there's plenty of argument on the strengths and weakness of the case. Apparently, the case is strong enough that SCOTUS agreed to hear it. All the justification I'm hearing from Robert is that Levy has a bad attitude, so it was the right thing for the running back to make the tackle. To claim that Levy was running towards the wrong goal line strikes me as absurd. That sounds like you're trying to claim that Levy's case is pro gun control. I sure don't get that.

Then I came to recognize that the kind of lunacy they represent plays into the hands of the anti gun forces. It's not that they are harmless crazies. They are among those who the public fears most: gun owners who can't see that they must live in society and don't care about anyone else.

Pretty strong and insulting rhetoric. So now you're painting GOA members as deranged lunatics who shoot up shopping malls? Because, I think that's who the public fears most. Or maybe your angle is that GOA members are TMV types. Or maybe unibombers.
 
Robert Hairless said:
Siglite, you just didn't understand anything I said and you don't understand the dynamics of Heller v. DC.

There is no our own team on this case.

From beginning to end the case belongs to Robert Levy, a rich lawyer. It is his own legal chess game pursued soley for his own motives. Levy is not "our quarterback." The case is not, never was, and never will be a team effort. That was part of what troubled the NRA. It is good reason to be troubled.

This is a game of winner-take-all being played by someone whose motives are not the same as yours and who is not risking his interest in owning and shooting firearms. Robert Levy has no interest in firearms, never owned one, and doesn't want to own one. Levy's motives are intellectual, political, and egocentric.

I am not criticizing Robert Levy, only trying to explain why thinking like yours and Gaston45's demonstrate complete misunderstanding of what has taken place and what is taking place. Your grandstand analysis can't work because you don't know this game or its rules.

I don't know how to explain any clearer than I did in that message you don't understand. Maybe you can understand if you print it out and read it more carefully.

And you understand everything. Forgive us who don't grasp your obvious superior knowledge and depth of thought.

The right to bear arms is not a gun owners right - It is a human right. Just because he doesn't own a gun doesn't mean he doesn't take it personal when OUR government violates the Peoples rights.

His wealth doesn't matter.

A game of chess?!?! How about the game of hopscotch the NRA plays with what gun rights are worth standing up for? What troubled the NRA about this lawsuit is more than likely a case of grapenuts.

"A game of winner-take-all being played by someone whose motives are not the same as yours" Please provide source material to back up that statement on his motives. Not owning a gun doesn't mean you don't support the right to bear arms. Some of us would rather play winner take all. This is my opinion and what I support. If you don't like it, thats too bad. You can continue to moan about it here all you like, but some of these restrictive gun laws have been around since 1934! How long are we supposed to wait for the NRA to get around to the issue at hand? WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS. Not some arms, but ARMS.

You realize that with support from the NRA, or without support from the NRA, if this case comes out in our favor there will be a legal challenge to the National Firearms Act. Now either the NRA can realize this will be another "winner take all" thing and just sit it out, or they can join in the fight so at least they have some input. But its going to happen. ...and its probably going to be a gunnut, not a security guard.

And as for telling people who don't agree with you that they are not smart enough...
 
To claim that Levy was running towards the wrong goal line strikes me as absurd. That sounds like you're trying to claim that Levy's case is pro gun control. I sure don't get that.

I wasn't claiming Levy was pro gun control, and I don't think that was the NRA's position either. Their position was not that Levy was deliberately trying to do harm, but that he is misguided. Adopting an unwise strategy. Following a counterproductive course of action. Good intentions coupled with foolish actions.

Again, I don't know enough about constitutional law to know if the NRA is right on this. However, I do know enough about the law to at least follow the argument and understand their position.

I never liked the stupid football analogy in the first place, but if you insist on beating it to death - If Levy were truly pro gun control, he would be playing on the other team. However, if he had taken a vicious hit to the head and was disoriented, running toward the wrong goal, he wouldn't be deliberately trying to score for the other team - his intention would be trying to score for our team, but his action would have the opposite effect.

The DC gun ban case, according to NRA opinion, is analagous. Levy is trying to do good for RKBA, but his actions are misguided and likely to produce the opposite effect.
 
Siglite, I certainly don't intend to insult you. Perhaps I should have said something like "You demonstrate a superior lack of knowledge and marvellous inability to understand what I wrote." It's not within anyone else's power to insult you. An insult is what you feel. You choose when to feel insulted. I don't feel insulted by what you've said.

But I can see why you think it would be stupid of me to "rationalize the star running back tackling his own quarter back" and I'm not at all insulted that you say so. The thing is that I didn't say it. You did.

Of course I agree with you that it's a stupid analogy in this situation because the point I've been trying hard to explain is that there is no "our team" here. So the NRA could not have been the star running back who tackled his own quarter back because Robert Levy is not on the same team as the NRA. Robert Levy is on his own team.

Your "I have no reading comprehension problems" is best left untouched.

If you were to at least try following my suggestion that you print out the message I posted in response to Gaston45 you might find it easier to follow and understand what I've said even better than you already do. Then you can attack me for what I said, not for what you said. The reason for my suggestion is that I sometimes find it hard to read a lengthy post with a closely reasoned argument on a computer screen, so I do exactly what I've suggested to you. It didn't occur to me that I was insulting myself when I thought of doing that years ago.

It's really not easy "to just insult the intelligence of those who ask 'why does the NRA keep selling us out?'" It takes a lot of time, energy, and hard work to respond to people who continue to say "why does the NRA keep selling us out" when they benefit from the work of the NRA and its members.

What would be much easier is to say something like "You idiot: you keep shooting yourself in the foot and utter complete stupidities while you do so," but I don't do that and I don't see other NRA members doing it either. Instead we patiently respond to the substance in what you and others like you say, as I have been doing here, and usually try to do it with good humor.

The trouble is that when we--or in this case I--respond thoughtfully the result is that your intelligence and comprehension do become at least questionable because what you say often turns out to be based on prejudice and ignorance rather than thought and knowledge, and it rarely demonstrates even native common sense. And then you feel insulted because, I suppose, you look foolish.

Let me give you an example of what I mean.

You ask, dramatically, "why does the NRA keep selling us out?" I can help you answer your own question.

You live in West Virginia. If you want a Concealed Weapons Permit in your state of West Virginia, your state law requires that you successfully complete a training course before you are allowed to apply for the permit. Here are two of the four ways to satisfy that requirement, from the West Virginia Code of Laws:

§61-7-4. License to carry deadly weapons; how obtained.

d) All persons applying for a license must complete a training course in handling and firing a handgun. The successful completion of any of the following courses fulfills this training requirement:

(1) Any official National Rifle Association handgun safety or training course;

(3) Any handgun training or safety course or class conducted by a handgun instructor certified as such by the state or by the National Rifle Association;

The other two ways are courses offered by the military to its own members or to the general public by a law enforcement agency, community college, junior college, college, training school, and similar organizations.

My guess--purely a guess--is that most permit holders in West Virginia take that required course from an instructor whose certification comes from the NRA--either civilian or law enforcement--no matter what organization offers the course.

So I don't see how you can possibly ask "why does the NRA keep selling us out?" if you have or plan to have a West Virginia concealed weapons permit. I would respect you very much if you refused to benefit from anything the NRA does, though, and I would respect you even more if you refused to have a West Virginia concealed weapons permit unless you have been absolutely sure to take the required course from an instructor who is not NRA-certified and from an organization that does not use NRA materials or methods. Even so, I can't understand why you consider that service--for which I and other NRA members pay--to be "selling you out." It's a kind of thinking I don't know how to do and don't care to learn.

I suppose you could take the required course from a GOA-certified instructor, but there aren't any and your state law doesn't allow it anyway. Maybe GOA sold you out? And maybe you should ask "why does GOA keep selling you out?"

At any rate, surely you see that it would have been "easier to just insult your intelligence" than to do the work of showing you some reasons why your statements are rash and unreasonable.
 
Outlaws:

And you understand everything. Forgive us who don't grasp your obvious superior knowledge and depth of thought.

The right to bear arms is not a gun owners right - It is a human right. Just because he doesn't own a gun doesn't mean he doesn't take it personal when OUR government violates the Peoples rights.

His wealth doesn't matter.

A game of chess?!?! How about the game of hopscotch the NRA plays with what gun rights are worth standing up for? What troubled the NRA about this lawsuit is more than likely a case of grapenuts.

"A game of winner-take-all being played by someone whose motives are not the same as yours" Please provide source material to back up that statement on his motives. Not owning a gun doesn't mean you don't support the right to bear arms. Some of us would rather play winner take all. This is my opinion and what I support. If you don't like it, thats too bad. You can continue to moan about it here all you like, but some of these restrictive gun laws have been around since 1934! How long are we supposed to wait for the NRA to get around to the issue at hand? WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS. Not some arms, but ARMS.

You realize that with support from the NRA, or without support from the NRA, if this case comes out in our favor there will be a legal challenge to the National Firearms Act. Now either the NRA can realize this will be another "winner take all" thing and just sit it out, or they can join in the fight so at least they have some input. But its going to happen. ...and its probably going to be a gunnut, not a security guard.

And as for telling people who don't agree with you that they are not smart enough...

Hello again, Outlaws! I'm flattered by your obvious devotion to what I post but people will talk if we keep meeting this way, especially if you continue to put your foot in your mouth. But I don't mind if you don't.

Nope, I don't understand everything. I do understand what I write, though, and when I'm in doubt I ask me if what you say I said is what I actually said. Most times it isn't. When I don't know something I don't post about it. When I don't understand something that looks as if it might be worth my understanding, I ask about it. Pretty devious, huh? You might want to give that a try. I'm not a Gun Owners of America member so don't confuse me with one.

Try to focus tonight. I wasn't talking about the nature of the right to bear arms, nor is anyone else except you. I suppose it's important to you to make Robert Levy the equivalent of Superman coming to your rescue, but I don't live in your comic book and I don't think Levy does either. Robert Levy has explained his motives

It's not even interesting to see you say that "His wealth doesn't matter," because of course it does matter and it's absurd for you to think it doesn't. Robert Levy has made the point that his wealth enables him to work on the case for free all these many years and to pay the costs of it out of his own pocket. Perhaps your own wealth is such that you're similarly free to fund your own case leading to the Supreme Court, but I haven't yet seen any reference to Outlaws v. DC anywhere and I don't expect to see one.

More to the point, Robert Levy has made no secret that he is rich enough to fund this case by himself from beginning to end. Every newspaper article I've seen about Levy's pursuit of this case makes that point. I don't know of any that doesn't.

I would be happy to "Please provide source material to back up that statement on his motives" but I am not your boy and you need either to sweet talk me or pay me to run your errands. I'll do it for love or for money, but not otherwise. I'm not much impressed by mindless demands on the order of "Show me the cites" or "Provide source material" or similar Internet babble.

When you capture your very own boy set him to looking at the obvious sources first, those you don't know but that any decent boy can find in a short time. My compassion for errand boys leads me to suggest that he start by looking at the web site Robert Levy and his team maintain to inform the public. There even a dullwitted boy will find part of the information you don't have, perhaps because it's cleverly concealed in public view:

Who is backing your case?

This case is a private effort that three lawyers – Alan Gura, Bob Levy, and Clark Neily – have undertaken on a pro bono basis on behalf of the six plaintiffs. We have not raised or accepted funds from any outside source, and the work product is entirely our own. The press has occasionally connected our case with the Cato Institute, probably because Mr. Levy and plaintiff Tom Palmer are affiliated with Cato. But Cato is a think tank, not a law firm, and it has no affiliation with this case beyond its general interest in promoting liberty, which certainly includes the right to own functional firearms in one’s home.

If you want to save your boy some time, you could write to Robert Levy and ask him yourself. I mean have someone else ask Levy on your behalf. Levy might disagree with some of my interpretations but I have no doubt that he will validate my facts and general direction. I know, I know ... if my interpretation differs it must be because I'm some kind of Commie, pinko, Second Amendment hating, dog kicking, guitar wrenching, rat fink. But that doesn't mean I'm not a nice person.

"And as for telling people who don't agree with you that they are not smart enough" makes me think that perhaps you shouldn't read what I post. I hate to see you in such obvious distress time after time.

It's troubling to see you fly into these irrational rages in which you flail away at shadows and delusions, but I suppose you must enjoy them or you wouldn't do it so often.
 
Wow.
Siglite, I certainly don't intend to insult you.
Intent aside, I wasn't the only person in this thread to perceive your words in multiple posts as insulting and derogatory. Oh well, I'm a big boy.

Perhaps I should have said something like "You demonstrate a superior lack of knowledge and marvellous inability to understand what I wrote."

You are confusing disagreement for stupidity. "Marvelous inability." I'm somehow inferior because I disagree. Got ya. No, you're not perpetuating your insults there.

It's not within anyone else's power to insult you. An insult is what you feel. You choose when to feel insulted. I don't feel insulted by what you've said.

You don't feel insulted by what I've said because I've taken the high road. IMO, you're just wrapping the low road in proper grammar.

But I can see why you think it would be stupid of me to "rationalize the star running back tackling his own quarter back" and I'm not at all insulted that you say so. The thing is that I didn't say it. You did.
Good. Then you see why I disagree. I'll wait for your next post implying I'm of inferior intellectual capabilities, or somehow unable to parse your high-fallutin' proper wordstuffs, me bein' a dum west virginia boy an al.
Of course I agree with you that it's a stupid analogy in this situation because the point I've been trying hard to explain is that there is no "our team" here. So the NRA could not have been the star running back who tackled his own quarter back because Robert Levy is not on the same team as the NRA. Robert Levy is on his own team.

So Levy is on his own team. I get that. But I'm not going to crap on the guy who's fighting for our cause for what you (and apparently the NRA) believe are the "wrong reasons." Nor would I attempt to derail his legal efforts on our behalf. However, it's arguable that there are two teams. One is pro RKBA, one is anti. If that's the case, Levy's certainly "on our team" regardless of the fact that he may or may not be a self-absorbed arrogant quarterback who's just playing the game for the fame and money.

Your "I have no reading comprehension problems" is best left untouched.

I sense a disturbance in the force.... as if a thousand low-road insults suddenly screamed out in fear, and were suddenly silenced....

If you were to at least try following my suggestion that you print out the message I posted in response to Gaston45 you might find it easier to follow and understand what I've said even better than you already do.

I have no problem following your message right here on the screen. I understand what you've said. Again, you mistake disagreement for stupidity. Or at least that may be reasonably derived from your words.

Then you can attack me for what I said, not for what you said.
I'm not attacking you at all. I'm attacking this ridiculous defense of the NRA attempting to derail Levy's case. And the perpetual rationalization of their ... what's the term you prefer for selling out.... oh yes, "compromise."
The reason for my suggestion is that I sometimes find it hard to read a lengthy post with a closely reasoned argument on a computer screen, so I do exactly what I've suggested to you. It didn't occur to me that I was insulting myself when I thought of doing that years ago.
I suffer no such deficiency. Thanks for the suggestion, but there's no need. I assure you.
It's really not easy "to just insult the intelligence of those who ask 'why does the NRA keep selling us out?'" It takes a lot of time, energy, and hard work to respond to people who continue to say "why does the NRA keep selling us out" when they benefit from the work of the NRA and its members.
Oh, THIS is going to get good. Observe....
What would be much easier is to say something like "You idiot: you keep shooting yourself in the foot and utter complete stupidities while you do so," but I don't do that and I don't see other NRA members doing it either.

But you just did. It's right there in black and white. Somehow, putting it in quotes absolves you of such baseless insults? I'm going to keep it high road, and allow your repeated insults to roll on past, with the exception of pointing out silly it is for you to think that a pair of quote marks absolves you of your malicious intent.

Instead we patiently respond to the substance in what you and others like you say, as I have been doing here, and usually try to do it with good humor.
I see absolutely zero evidence of "good humor."
The trouble is that when we--or in this case I--respond thoughtfully the result is that your intelligence and comprehension do become at least questionable because what you say often turns out to be based on prejudice and ignorance rather than thought and knowledge, and it rarely demonstrates even native common sense. And then you feel insulted because, I suppose, you look foolish.

You actually have a valid point. By now, when you insult us, I suppose we should just consider the source. I completely agree that common sense is out the window. Remember I said that, because it's going to come into play later.
Let me give you an example of what I mean.

You ask, dramatically, "why does the NRA keep selling us out?" I can help you answer your own question.

You live in West Virginia. If you want a Concealed Weapons Permit in your state of West Virginia, your state law requires that you successfully complete a training course before you are allowed to apply for the permit. Here are two of the four ways to satisfy that requirement, from the West Virginia Code of Laws:

Quote:
§61-7-4. License to carry deadly weapons; how obtained.

d) All persons applying for a license must complete a training course in handling and firing a handgun. The successful completion of any of the following courses fulfills this training requirement:

(1) Any official National Rifle Association handgun safety or training course;

(3) Any handgun training or safety course or class conducted by a handgun instructor certified as such by the state or by the National Rifle Association;
The other two ways are courses offered by the military to its own members or to the general public by a law enforcement agency, community college, junior college, college, training school, and similar organizations.

Now, let's get around to this "common sense." The NRA, in West Virginia was able to codify a monopoly on CCW training. The state runs the schools, the police, and the military, so the NRA, because of legislative weaseling now shares a monopoly on CCW training with the government. You consider this a GOOD thing? From who's perspective? Clearly, the NRAs perspective. And, it seems to me, that both in the very example you have cited, and Levy's case, you have perfectly illustrated that the NRA looks out for its own interests, and then shoves them in the face of their constituents as their own. "Take it, and enjoy it, and be thankful for it, because we, sir, have screwed you again. And if you complain, Robert Hairless will call you stupid."

My guess--purely a guess--is that most permit holders in West Virginia take that required course from an instructor whose certification comes from the NRA--either civilian or law enforcement--no matter what organization offers the course.

No kidding! You think a legal monopoly on CCW training has ANYTHING to do with that? Who has comprehension problems here?
So I don't see how you can possibly ask "why does the NRA keep selling us out?" if you have or plan to have a West Virginia concealed weapons permit. I would respect you very much if you refused to benefit from anything the NRA does, though, and I would respect you even more if you refused to have a West Virginia concealed weapons permit unless you have been absolutely sure to take the required course from an instructor who is not NRA-certified and from an organization that does not use NRA materials or methods. Even so, I can't understand why you consider that service--for which I and other NRA members pay--to be "selling you out." It's a kind of thinking I don't know how to do and don't care to learn.

I have a WV CCW permit. And I had to go through the NRA to get it. The state police, nor any other LE agency, nor any university OFFERS it to my knowledge. Because NRA weasels got that language placed in our freakin' laws, I have no choice. And you call that a good thing. Absurd.
I suppose you could take the required course from a GOA-certified instructor, but there aren't any and your state law doesn't allow it anyway. Maybe GOA sold you out? And maybe you should ask "why does GOA keep selling you out?"

No, the GOA didn't sell us out, but the NRA and our crappy legislature damn sure screwed us over. We have no choice in the matter. Again, I'm shocked you consider this a good thing. Well, ok, not really shocked that you consider this a good thing. I'd be shocked if many people do though. Government sanctioned and enforced monopolies are never good. I cite the NRA as case in point.
At any rate, surely you see that it would have been "easier to just insult your intelligence" than to do the work of showing you some reasons why your statements are rash and unreasonable.

Well, you've continued down the insult line. But you've not made a very strong case for it. And your citing of the WV code as proof of the NRA's "good works" is downright laughable. That's arguably even worse than actually "selling us out." That was outright "screwing us over."

The NRA is not this perfect organization you present. They NEED the wakeup presented by the JPFO and GOA. They NEED to be aware that all this "compromise" is tiresome, and in the end will result in a complete ban. Unless of course, that egocentric self-absorbed jerk Levy strikes the greatest victory for freedom this country has seen in 70 years.
 
so the NRA, because of legislative weaseling now shares a monopoly on CCW training with the government.

Monopoly (from Greek mono(μονό), alone or single + polο (πωλώ), to sell) is a persistent situation where there is only one provider of a product or service in a particular market.

(how the hell do you share a monopoly?)


I have a WV CCW permit. And I had to go through the NRA to get it

That sounds like a weakness on the part of West Virginia legislators. Why aren't you voting them out of office instead of blaming the NRA?
 
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