Good read about culling and anti-hunters

[auschip]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/03/28/mammals.activists.reut/index.html

'In South Africa, national park authorities say the burgeoning elephant population in the flag-ship Kruger National Park has made culling a necessity. The park has an estimated 12,000 ponderous pachyderms, well above the estimated "carrying capacity" of around 7,000.

Animal rights activists are horrified at the prospect of a return to culling elephants, which involves the herding and shooting of entire family groups."

 

[JohnKSa]

Animal rights activists are horrified at the prospect of a return to culling elephants, which involves the herding and shooting of entire family groups."

...and yet it is primarily their actions which have made it necessary.

 

[EghtySx]

Well, you can thin the herd or risk em dying of starvation. Which is more humane?

 

[JohnKSa]

A friend of mine just adopted a stray cat. They took it in and this week they had it tested and were going to give it shots/have it fixed, etc.

Testing revealed that it was infected with feline AIDS. They put it to sleep, but now they are in a dilemma--it's been interacting with their other four cats for several weeks, and has bitten at least one of them. That means that the bitten cat is almost certainly infected.

I've said for a long time that cat lovers should be the most persistant and vocal advocates of the total elimination of feral cats because of the dangers these animals pose to their beloved pets. But, just as with this issue, there's no rational thought involved. It's all about how you FEEL.

Starvation vs culling? Don't try to confuse these folks with facts--it's an ineffective tactic when used against people who make their decisions based on feelings and emotion.

 

[Art Eatman]

Nothing's ever changed my opinion that Felix Salter ("Bambi") and Walt Disney were the two biggest enemies of rational dealings with wildlife who've ever lived. How else do people like Ingrid Newkirk and Wayne Purcelle develop their outre ideas and philosophies?

Art

 

[birddog]

Yep. It's frustrating.

I've found a bigger than normal breech in the logic when it comes to nature vs. animal rights. I think people who speak from pure emotion when it comes to the well-being of animals almost all have a disconnect with exactly what NATURE is. I love nature. I love being out among the animals (even when I'm not hunting them with the gun, I am out with my camera), but the thing I've learned over the years is that which most anti-hunters don't realize: Nature is cruel. Would they rather see the elephants starve to death? Probably, and sure that is a natural way to go, but then they'll be pleading for sterilization or more money, or this or that. No one wants to recognize that nature will deal with the problem whether mankind intervenes or not. Nature couldn't care less. Those elephants are going to die one way or the other. Why not let some hunters in there to sink a little money into the local economy while they're at it? I don't think you'd hear the locals trying to stop them.

 

[EghtySx]

I don't think nature is essentially cruel but it is totally fair. If the lion doesn't get up and hunt he doesnt eat. There is no welfare system, no handouts. Fair is fair. In nature you get what you earn.

 

[Shalako]

Problem is, its not 100% "Nature" anymore. Once human intervention occurs and development lays down the border to a managed habitat, it's only partially nature. That's the part the bunnyhuggers don't get. Once mankind dabbles in the habitat, we are committed to some level of involvement.

In a somewhat related way, I manage construction projects inside the riverine environment. The touchy-feely types think that it is "nature" out there and protest everything I do. Its a <expletive> floodway that just looks like nature. They want the part of nature where animals and plants can live unfettered by man, but they are selectively blind to the part of nature where life is rough and some fuzzy things eat other fuzzy things.

Culling elephants is the hard part about a manged habitat. The touchy-feelys don't like the hard part.

 

[H&Hhunter]

HEY!!!

How come when I start a thread on this very same subject all of the whakopathic, bleeding heart, antihunter members immediatley jump on with statemants about GO JUMBO! And long......winded........narations......about the noble elephant which is too intellingent to be killed by meager man.

COME ON FAIR is FAIR.

How could anyone kill an elephant? You must ask yourself that how could you!

Answer:

A 500gr solid just forward of the ear hole works quite nicely.

In all reality though I've been advocating that these parks should have opened up controlled sport hunting long ago. Proper management is so important.

It would have provided much needed funds.

It would have been a VERY effective management tool.

Sport hunting is the ONLY reason there any wild animals left in many parts of Africa today. Like it or not that is the undisputable truth.

It's really to bad these bleeding heart lefties can't look beyond their emotional blinders they wear over their eyes and see that if it wasn't for us there'd be a whole lot less wildlife and habbitat for those animals in this world.

If anyone has any questions as to the benifits of sport hunting take a good long look at India VS Southern Africa..

Doing my part.

I took this non trohpy non exportable tuskless cull elephant last summer in the Rift Valley of Zimbabwe. At full license cost I may add. The meat, leather, and other products go to the 4 villages who own the hunting concession in this area. Somin essence I paid these people to kill this elephant and they then double benefitted by recieving the bypoducts of the elephant. And also by doing so I've now assigned a value to this animal who would otherwise be a liability to the local villages due to crop depradation. It is a win win situation no matter how you look at it.

PS did you know that elephants are born with tusks? The tuskless elephant is a genetic misnomer and that they are very rare except in certain parts of Africa. Tusks are not a indicator of age rather the way to age an elephant is by the degree of hollowness in their temples. This cow was estiamted at 40-45 years old and was dry no calf. A perfect cull elephant in my opinon.

 

[oldgeek]

H&Hhunter,
This is probably OT, but I notice what looks like a broken off stub of a pretty substantial tree just behind you in the picture. Did that get broken off the way I think it did? i.e.; when the elephant went down?

 

[El Tejon]

A critter is a critter. They need to be shot.

An elephant is a big critter, but a critter none the less.

Why would Suid Afrika squander such a resource? Why not sell licenses and have them killed by paying hunters rather than culling by park rangers?

 

[H&Hhunter]

This is probably OT, but I notice what looks like a broken off stub of a pretty substantial tree just behind you in the picture. Did that get broken off the way I think it did? i.e.; when the elephant went down?

Oldgeek.

Yes. I took this ele with a side brain shot and she took that tree down in her fall. What you can't see is several other small tress she broke off and is lying on top of.

 

[JohnKSa]

How come when I start a thread on this very same subject all of the whakopathic, bleeding heart, antihunter members immediatley jump on with statemants about GO JUMBO! And long......winded........narations......about the noble elephant which is too intellingent to be killed by meager man.

COME ON FAIR is FAIR.

Ok, I think I can manage a little rant. But remember, you asked for it.

The thought of wholesale slaughter of elephants sickens me. Even the ridiculous euphemism, "culling" is disgusting to contemplate. Man has encroached upon the environment of this majestic creature and has in his infinite wisdom tinkered with other aspects of its habitat. Now when those inane policies have come to roost, the only "fix" that is suggested is to KILL MORE elephants?

The ELEPHANTS should bear the further brunt of man's shortsightedness by being killed en masse? How is that a reasonable alternative?

Then you have the gall to say that the reason this situation has come to a head is because of the lack of sport hunting? Is killing the only solution you can muster? Surely the people who made these animals suffer should now suffer in turn so that these creatures can roam freely without the threat of "sport hunters" or "culling crews."

We owe the elephant that much respect.

(You know, part of me really feels that way... Culling is clearly the answer at this point, but I can't help thinking that the elephants are paying for man's mistakes. And yes, eliminating sport hunting of elephants is one of those mistakes.)

 

[H&Hhunter]

John,

I didn't know you were a whakopathic, leftie, bleeding heart, antihunter..

Just kidding partner. Seriously this is not meant to twist off on you, it's just a good oportunity for some intelligent and logical sharing of ideas.

I feel exactley the same way about culling. And I've said in previous posts that the killing of a family group of elephants is probably one of the most horrible jobs on earth. I have spent a good amount of time around wild elephants and I love them, they are truely noble creatures. After you've run for your life several times however, your whole outlook changes from gentle, noble creatures to just plain old noble with an attitude to match.

Unfortunatley, however, this is the here and the now and there are many reason why we are here and why it's now.

But lets look at this from a realistic stand point. Just 20 years ago elephants were on the brink of extinctsion in many areas where today they are over populated. Today we are once again talking about culling to reduce populations. So not all is bad in elephantville.

HOWEVER my whole point is given the current constraints on habitat this whole thing should have been avoided through proper management a long time ago. Now it's to late and the responsible party is 100% the anti crowd.

A big reason elephants have any habitat left at all is through revenue from the hunting industry which has kept massive tracts of land free from encroachment. Oh yeah and we pay a precentage for the parks to stay open too. There just ain't that much money to be had from anywhere else. And these things take money.

PS

Did you know that Kruger has been selling live elephants to various hunting reserves through out South Africa for the last ten years to try and reduce populations and gain revenues?

The park systems have been trying to open some form of revenue positive scheme and reduce elephant populations for quite awhile. They used to do this through culling operations back when they could sell elepahnt products (read ivory) on the international market. Since the international ban on ivory trade ( a good thing IMO) their has not been a revenue postive method to deal with elephant overpopulation besides controlled sport hunting. They need to come up with something or these elephants are soon going to take care of their own problems through starvation. The simple answer is regulated and controlled sport hunting or hell why not market hunting for meat and leather products in a very controlled way.

Those are the only logical alternatives given the current sociopolitcal situation in the region to which we speak.

The other solution would be to depopulate the region of humans. I am not going there. So if my suggestion "sickens" you maybe you should look at the alternative I'm affraid it's much more unpleasant.

PSS

How come we never have these conversations in regard to culling deer? Which happens every year on just about every large ranch in Texas. Oh and we use a much nicer word for deer we say "game management". Does that make it all better?

Greg

 

[auschip]

How come we never have these conversations in regard to culling deer? Which happens every year on just about every large ranch in Texas. Oh and we use a much nicer word for deer we say "game management". Does that make it all better?

Because I didn't post the following link:

http://www.all-creatures.org/cash/let-deer-12jan04.html

"Leaving the deer alone would be the best and most humane way to manage their numbers. If there is indeed a food shortage, nature will slow their fecundity and stabilize the herd."

I didn't think it slowed their "fecundity", but rather more of them starved to death. I, however, am not a biologist.

 

[birddog]

but....

I didn't think it slowed their "fecundity", but rather more of them starved to death. I, however, am not a biologist

But thankfully we've learned this week that starving to death is "peaceful and beautiful" thanks to Michael Schiavo's lawyers, so you needn't stress.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Auschip,

The differnce being you won't get near the emoition when speaking of deer as you do when speaking of elephant.

I've proved that point over and over again on this sight. People lose their frigging minds when you mention elephant and hunting in the same sentence. The major problem with elephants who are constrained in their habitat is that they completley denude the land scape killing many other species along with themselves.

I mean lets put this in terms we cam all understand. IT's OK to manage deer herds and elk herds and wild hogs and coyotes. But it's not OK to manage wild horses or elephants.

These animals should be allowed to over graze their habitat and starve to death at the cost of all the other species that also share that nich?

The thing that most Sensitive new age types miss out on is that humans have been a part of the equasion for thousands of years and even the noble and primitve savages of yore managed their animal herds and their environment around them. This is nothing new.

 

[Shalako]

If only people would spay or neuter their elephant this wouldn't be a problem
[/]


Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

 

[birddog]

The thing that most Sensitive new age types miss out on is that humans have been a part of the equasion for thousands of years and even the noble and primitve savages of yore managed their animal herds and their environment around them. This is nothing new.

H&H, that is extremely well said.

Funny that the same people that think we are "only smart animals" also tend to think -- when convenient -- that we are not as much a part of nature as say a deer...or an elephant.

 

[H&Hhunter]

If only people would spay or neuter their elephant this wouldn't be a problem

Shalako,

You grab him by the ear and hold him down I'll get the bolt cutters........

Famous last word of an African redneck...

 

[SamlautRanger]

Some really good points H & H. I am kind of at the opposite end here. Very few wild elephants in my area and I am working hard with my police and rangers to stop the poaching. You made some great points. Nice to hear someone who thinks the same as me. I am always arguing with many others of the "tree hugger" mind set withing the Conservation field, how hunting actually helps to manage the ecosystems and the revenue from hunting can promote conservation. Well, will probably not be in my life time we will see organized legall hunting of big game here in Cambodia. Wildlife numbers are too low and there is way to much corruption here.

 

[JohnKSa]

So if my suggestion "sickens" you maybe you should look at the alternative I'm affraid it's much more unpleasant.

I'm with you--I don't think there's a better solution than culling. I also agree that anyone who loves animals has to get a little queasy at the thought of culling.

So... Where do I sign up?

 

[H&Hhunter]

So... Where do I sign up?

John,

Be carefull what you ask for. I've got to admitt that the most concerened for my life I've ever been was while in the thick jesse with a herd of P.Oed elephants.

Having a critter that large and that intelligent and that powerfull after your insignifigant little self is quite terrifying. Having twenty of them systematically hunting you down is beyond comprehension.

Elephants do not go around trees and brush when they charge they just plow right through them straight at you. The first time you witness it....Well lets just say it's pretty awe inspiring. Not to mention the fact that you can run a 100 yard dash in like 3 seconds during a elephant vs man encounter. It's been proven scientificaly

It is truely an experience that no man should ever pass on given the chance.

 

[Art Eatman]

"There's a bunny-hugger born every minute." -- Me.

November, 1975: Some four couples of us were all--all, mind you--eating steaks at McCluskey's on 6th St. in Austintatious. At some point I mentioned that the next day was "Deer Season Eve".

One each Sweet Young Thing seated across the table from me practically splattered the world with part of a mouthful of Medium Rare in her paroxysm of righteous indignation at the idea of me Dealing Death to Poor Innocent Bambi. All the usual adjectives for deer, including "noble"...

She finally wound down.

I simply asked, "So your point is that a deer is somehow more noble than a cow?"

Her answer was the Great Guppy Look of Total Confusion. We obviously had a communications failure.

I tried again: "It's okay for you to indirectly kill, and then eat, Elsie the Cow? But it's somehow evil and badnasty for me to directly kill and do all the prep work in order to eat Bambi? That is, you're not somehow profaning nobility, but I am?"

I dunno. It's possible the complexity of my questions overloaded her synapses, as no further commentary was uttered.

Which, of course, made the rest of the evening far more enjoyable...

Unfortunately, there is an unending supply of the Totally Clueless...

Carrying capacity. The land will only support a certain number of any species. People either maintain those populations below that carrying capacity on an annual basis in perpetutity: Or it's a tossup between nature's culling or people's culling. But culling will happen. People can make it happen such that there is benefit and no waste. Mama Gaia doesn't care, one way or the other.

I don't create reality; I just report it.

Art

 

[JohnKSa]

I've got to admitt that the most concerened for my life I've ever been was while in the thick jesse with a herd of P.Oed elephants.

Sounds like I'm perfect for the job. The item "concern for my life" does not appear on the list of my personal afflictions.