Shalako
Member
Question: Why doesn't the AMA want us to have guns?
Maybe the doctors (AMA) would rather work on us good guys (victims) than on the badguys?
Maybe the doctors (AMA) would rather work on us good guys (victims) than on the badguys?
Guess what the doctor asked me...
- Thread starter Partisan Ranger
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rangerbill
Member
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2003
- Messages
- 52
quote:
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... i told her if any one asks to tell them its city water. (there's some sort of a silly regulation about kids drinking well water) ...
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Can't get city water out here even if we wanted it. Wonder what they would do about that? Force us to move or force the goverment to supply city water?
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we knew from other people that had been down that road that if caught, they would see to it that you purchased water in jugs from the store.(which i wonder about the quality of). theres nothing wrong with the water in this area either. we all grew up drinking it.
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... i told her if any one asks to tell them its city water. (there's some sort of a silly regulation about kids drinking well water) ...
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Can't get city water out here even if we wanted it. Wonder what they would do about that? Force us to move or force the goverment to supply city water?
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we knew from other people that had been down that road that if caught, they would see to it that you purchased water in jugs from the store.(which i wonder about the quality of). theres nothing wrong with the water in this area either. we all grew up drinking it.
StuporDave
Member
You could be on to something there....
"Us good guys" generally have money/insurance while "the bad guys" generally don't.
Dave
RugerGuy
Member
Funny you should say this
I JUST got home from my new doctors office a few minutes ago. I had the " Do you own guns" question in my question list myself. I thought it was odd and without thinking I answered yes. I was caught off guard. I did'nt want to kill the messenger because my doctor works in a large medical building and I'm sure all the other doctors patients are asked the same questions by whoever runs the practice. I'm from Maine and not used to the anti-gun feelings in Taxassachusetts yet . Up in Maine they don't ask if you've got guns: they ask how many?? I wish I'd read these post before I went tonight. I would've been prepared and made a stink . Live and Learn!!!
I JUST got home from my new doctors office a few minutes ago. I had the " Do you own guns" question in my question list myself. I thought it was odd and without thinking I answered yes. I was caught off guard. I did'nt want to kill the messenger because my doctor works in a large medical building and I'm sure all the other doctors patients are asked the same questions by whoever runs the practice. I'm from Maine and not used to the anti-gun feelings in Taxassachusetts yet . Up in Maine they don't ask if you've got guns: they ask how many?? I wish I'd read these post before I went tonight. I would've been prepared and made a stink . Live and Learn!!!
XLMiguel
Member
The only gun question my Dr. asks is, "What are you carrying today?" He was quite taken by my H&K USP45C ( he mostly plinks with an old .22). The nurse-practioner is into sporting clays (and apparently pretty good at it). This in in McLean (Fairfax Co.) VA, no less
Lone_Gunman
Member
Well, I am a physician also, and have never asked that question either. Its none of my business.
The AMA and several other organized medical organizations, including the American Academy of Pediatrics, are run by liberals. I resigned from the AMA after their newly elected President chose to make gun control an issue in his inaugural speech.
As for the "boundary violation" I have never heard that term prior to this thread, and its not going to cut much ice with any physician you use it on. The state medical board will not pursue this issue if you bring it up with them; you will never be able to convince them it is a boundary violation because this question has been legitimized by the AMA and is being pushed as a standard of care.
If I was asked that by a doctor, I am not sure how I would respond at the time. I think I would probably say I don't own one.
The AMA really sucks, by the way, as an organization. It is supposed to look out for the interests of physicians and patients, but ends up playing busy body in issues like this.
The AMA and several other organized medical organizations, including the American Academy of Pediatrics, are run by liberals. I resigned from the AMA after their newly elected President chose to make gun control an issue in his inaugural speech.
As for the "boundary violation" I have never heard that term prior to this thread, and its not going to cut much ice with any physician you use it on. The state medical board will not pursue this issue if you bring it up with them; you will never be able to convince them it is a boundary violation because this question has been legitimized by the AMA and is being pushed as a standard of care.
If I was asked that by a doctor, I am not sure how I would respond at the time. I think I would probably say I don't own one.
The AMA really sucks, by the way, as an organization. It is supposed to look out for the interests of physicians and patients, but ends up playing busy body in issues like this.
tripleevil
Member
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2003
- Messages
- 4
Whoa! It seems that there's some serious animosity towards doctors around here and some serious paranoia. Is seems that everyone thinks there are some sinister motives.
I usually just lurk around here but I figure I'd weigh in and go out on a limb - being a newly minted MD...
Do I ask my patients if they have guns?
Yes - but it's not a question in isolation - it's part of normal health screening. It's followed with questions about gun safety i.e. safely stored, lead exposure etc.
What's wrong with making sure that a fellow gun owner (or possesor) is taking it seriously and safely? Is it something that should be presumed?
I find it surprising on this board that so many people are against any PCP EVEN asking this question. Over and over again, the four rules are chanted. Fools at the range are not tolerated here and schooled frequently.
Follow this analogy if you will - I ask my patients if they wear their seat belts while driving. It may be none of my business but when they crash and I have to take care of their broken femur and try to coordinate their rehab, it becomes my business. Health care is not just about getting people healthy - it's also equally about keeping people healthy.
The patients I treat are probably much more high risk than any of you. I took a phone call from an freaking out mom last month (from the gun club) about her kid who shot a BB into his thumb after finding a gun and pulled the trigger trying to put it back on top of the fridge. Imagine if he found his gang-banger brother's 9mm.
Is it politically motivated? No. Do I do it to take away your evil AK-47's? No. Do I want to ferret out gun owners? No. Do I care if you own a gun or not? No.
Do I want to take care of your kid's colostomy after he finds your loaded .22 and shoots himself in the gut? Absolutely not.
If you don't want to answer the question - don't. Most MD's would be happy to chart one less thing.
Better yet - ask your doctor why (s)he's asking and use the opportunity to dispell some myths.
Evil
I usually just lurk around here but I figure I'd weigh in and go out on a limb - being a newly minted MD...
Do I ask my patients if they have guns?
Yes - but it's not a question in isolation - it's part of normal health screening. It's followed with questions about gun safety i.e. safely stored, lead exposure etc.
What's wrong with making sure that a fellow gun owner (or possesor) is taking it seriously and safely? Is it something that should be presumed?
I find it surprising on this board that so many people are against any PCP EVEN asking this question. Over and over again, the four rules are chanted. Fools at the range are not tolerated here and schooled frequently.
Follow this analogy if you will - I ask my patients if they wear their seat belts while driving. It may be none of my business but when they crash and I have to take care of their broken femur and try to coordinate their rehab, it becomes my business. Health care is not just about getting people healthy - it's also equally about keeping people healthy.
The patients I treat are probably much more high risk than any of you. I took a phone call from an freaking out mom last month (from the gun club) about her kid who shot a BB into his thumb after finding a gun and pulled the trigger trying to put it back on top of the fridge. Imagine if he found his gang-banger brother's 9mm.
Is it politically motivated? No. Do I do it to take away your evil AK-47's? No. Do I want to ferret out gun owners? No. Do I care if you own a gun or not? No.
Do I want to take care of your kid's colostomy after he finds your loaded .22 and shoots himself in the gut? Absolutely not.
If you don't want to answer the question - don't. Most MD's would be happy to chart one less thing.
Better yet - ask your doctor why (s)he's asking and use the opportunity to dispell some myths.
Evil
anapex
Member
Just wondering why you should really care how they did it when your only supposed to fix the results. I mean if they have a broken bone who cares how they did it, it's still the same way to fix a broken arm if I was wearing a seatbelt as if I wasn't right?
Doctors are one of the main things I notice becoming incredibly invasive in our current society. I'm currently being treated for some mild depression so I've gotten the whole range of "lets look for a way to lock you up and take your kids away" questions. So I try to tread very lightly as to how I answer. I want to keep the little buggers I have afterall.
matis
Member
* Your race is directly related to your risk for certain diseases and conditions.
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Yes, Mpayne, but the doc agrees with me that that is NOT why they ask.
They ask for political purposes and for reasons relating to the racial spoils system.
matis
________________________________________________________
Yes, Mpayne, but the doc agrees with me that that is NOT why they ask.
They ask for political purposes and for reasons relating to the racial spoils system.
matis
mountainclmbr
Member
I would just reply:
1. Have you ever perscribed narcotics?
2. Do you know where they went?
3. Do you know if any of your "medicated " patients has harmed anyone?
4. Do you feel responsible, or would anyone else feel you were?
5. How do I exploit this to minimize your rights?
6. What professional organizations do you belong to that can be sued?...AMA???
7. Please list your address and verify that you have no means of self defense.....
1. Have you ever perscribed narcotics?
2. Do you know where they went?
3. Do you know if any of your "medicated " patients has harmed anyone?
4. Do you feel responsible, or would anyone else feel you were?
5. How do I exploit this to minimize your rights?
6. What professional organizations do you belong to that can be sued?...AMA???
7. Please list your address and verify that you have no means of self defense.....
Ok, a couple of docs have responded as if it should be perfectly normal for them to ask about guns.
I suppose it is...
Here are the times when it is relevant to ask a patient about guns:
If you suspect lead poisoning.
If a patient complains of hearing loss.
If a patient seems to be suffering from gunshot.
If a patient seems to be afflicted by some ailment which could result from repeated firearm recoil.
In short, when the ailment or condition of the patient leads you to suspect that guns are a factor in the ailment or condition it is perfectly relevant for you to ask about guns.
How a patient stores his gun has nothing to do with the PRACTICE OF MEDICINE and is therefore NOT YOUR BUSINESS as a doctor.
If you think it is your business to see that all of your patients store their guns safely then by the same token you should ask about pool enclosures, safety seats, seat belts, air bags, driving habits, dead bolts, security systems, presence of 5 gallon buckets when toddlers are in the home, storage of kitchen knives, electrical outlet safety, aluminum wiring, radon gas, fire extinguishers, smoke detectors, storage of household chemicals, life insurance, etc.
Making me and my family SAFER is not your job--that is MY job. Your opinion of what makes me safer is IRRELEVANT to your profession and therefore should not be broached during a medical interview under the pretense that it pertains to your profession.
Your job is maintaining my HEALTH--that is what I PAY you to do. So that I can kill myself skydiving if I so choose.
If you feel that it is critical that you discuss gun safety with people then I recommend that you become a firearms instructor and hold classes.
I, by the way, am a certified firearms instructor. I became one because I think it is important that people learn firearm safety. I am concerned for the well-being of my students. Do you think it would be right, in the interest of improving my student's well-being, for me to ask about their medical history? Or to offer them medical advice?
If you are really concerned about your patients' safety with regard to firearms, I suggest you ask a local firearm safety instructor for some brochures and hand them out to your patients.
I suppose it is...
Here are the times when it is relevant to ask a patient about guns:
If you suspect lead poisoning.
If a patient complains of hearing loss.
If a patient seems to be suffering from gunshot.
If a patient seems to be afflicted by some ailment which could result from repeated firearm recoil.
In short, when the ailment or condition of the patient leads you to suspect that guns are a factor in the ailment or condition it is perfectly relevant for you to ask about guns.
How a patient stores his gun has nothing to do with the PRACTICE OF MEDICINE and is therefore NOT YOUR BUSINESS as a doctor.
If you think it is your business to see that all of your patients store their guns safely then by the same token you should ask about pool enclosures, safety seats, seat belts, air bags, driving habits, dead bolts, security systems, presence of 5 gallon buckets when toddlers are in the home, storage of kitchen knives, electrical outlet safety, aluminum wiring, radon gas, fire extinguishers, smoke detectors, storage of household chemicals, life insurance, etc.
Making me and my family SAFER is not your job--that is MY job. Your opinion of what makes me safer is IRRELEVANT to your profession and therefore should not be broached during a medical interview under the pretense that it pertains to your profession.
Your job is maintaining my HEALTH--that is what I PAY you to do. So that I can kill myself skydiving if I so choose.
If you feel that it is critical that you discuss gun safety with people then I recommend that you become a firearms instructor and hold classes.
I, by the way, am a certified firearms instructor. I became one because I think it is important that people learn firearm safety. I am concerned for the well-being of my students. Do you think it would be right, in the interest of improving my student's well-being, for me to ask about their medical history? Or to offer them medical advice?
If you are really concerned about your patients' safety with regard to firearms, I suggest you ask a local firearm safety instructor for some brochures and hand them out to your patients.
Darrin
Member
JohnKSa,
Excellent post! You have just become my personal hero for I could not have worded it better.
Fortunately, I live in an area and have the insurance to change docs should the need arise. *hint*
Excellent post! You have just become my personal hero for I could not have worded it better.
Fortunately, I live in an area and have the insurance to change docs should the need arise. *hint*
Um, i have a funny fealing that our definition of "safely stored" is VERY different. At least one of my pistols is "safely stored" with a loaded chamber in my VERY DELIBERATLY unlocked nightstand. One can be typically found "safely stored" with a loaded chamber in my waistbant at times. In fact on occasion there will even be a pistol "safely stored" under the drivers seat of my car (not left there unnatended though). So as a MEDICAL PROFFESION what exactly is the MEDICAL problem that i am likely to encounter from my take on "safe storage"?
XavierBreath
Member
Triple Evil,
Since as a physician you are asking this question under the guises of helping your patients, I must assume that if they answer yes, you then proceed to educate them. Can you state your credentials for firearms instruction? Where did you become a Firearms Safety Instructor, and how many course hours do you possess? How much time of your evaluation do you devote to firearms safety instruction with the patient who says "Yes, I own firearms?" Do you just check a box and ask if they are locked up? Do you consider that safety instruction?
I have to assume that you are NOT devoting any time at all to firearms safety instruction (if I am wrong, please correct me and state the time you devote, and your credentials to teach this material. A morning seminar given by the AMA or the Brady Bunch will not suffice here). If you do not offer the instruction, you have NO right to ask the question. Also, frankly, it is none of your business whether a patient wears a seatbelt, a motorcycle helmet, or stands in a bucket of water while doing electrical work either. It is none of your business whether a patient owns pitbulls, marries outside of their race, or chooses not to recieve blood. It is none of your business whether I am a Democrat or a Republican. It is none of your business whether I own my home or have a pool. It is none of your business if I am a Marine either. Do you advise your patients not to join the Marines because they are 80 times more likely to be shot as a Marine than as a civilian? If not, then why do you feel the compulsion to advise them on guns in the home? Doctor, it is none of your business to do anything but practice medicine. Medicine is your business. Being a pawn to those who seek to remove a person's rights to self determination, no matter what that person should choose to do is NOT your business. You are unwittingly participating in the destruction of the general public's view of the medical profession as a whole. Your patients are NOT stupid.
How about teaching your patients how to take their medications properly and what the side effects are instead? How about teaching your patients what the components of the diet you impose on them are? How about asking a patient if they can READ before you give them 50 pages of gobblety gook to take home to read alone just so you can get out of the examination room in under ten minutes? If you truly want to impact your patient's state of health, then focus on teaching them about what you know........medicine. Leave guns to people who have been trained and credentialed to teach firearm safety. To allow your postion as the white coated professional to be abused in this manner is to ignore it's significance and diminish it's ability to impact the care that you have chosen to devote your life to. If you really believe that any gun owner will change their behavior because you ask them whether they own guns and whether they are locked up, you are deluding yourself. Nobody is against doctors practicing medicine. There are plenty of people who want their physician to stay out of politics, religion, and social issues though.
Lone Gunman, Thank you for your honesty.
Since as a physician you are asking this question under the guises of helping your patients, I must assume that if they answer yes, you then proceed to educate them. Can you state your credentials for firearms instruction? Where did you become a Firearms Safety Instructor, and how many course hours do you possess? How much time of your evaluation do you devote to firearms safety instruction with the patient who says "Yes, I own firearms?" Do you just check a box and ask if they are locked up? Do you consider that safety instruction?
I have to assume that you are NOT devoting any time at all to firearms safety instruction (if I am wrong, please correct me and state the time you devote, and your credentials to teach this material. A morning seminar given by the AMA or the Brady Bunch will not suffice here). If you do not offer the instruction, you have NO right to ask the question. Also, frankly, it is none of your business whether a patient wears a seatbelt, a motorcycle helmet, or stands in a bucket of water while doing electrical work either. It is none of your business whether a patient owns pitbulls, marries outside of their race, or chooses not to recieve blood. It is none of your business whether I am a Democrat or a Republican. It is none of your business whether I own my home or have a pool. It is none of your business if I am a Marine either. Do you advise your patients not to join the Marines because they are 80 times more likely to be shot as a Marine than as a civilian? If not, then why do you feel the compulsion to advise them on guns in the home? Doctor, it is none of your business to do anything but practice medicine. Medicine is your business. Being a pawn to those who seek to remove a person's rights to self determination, no matter what that person should choose to do is NOT your business. You are unwittingly participating in the destruction of the general public's view of the medical profession as a whole. Your patients are NOT stupid.
How about teaching your patients how to take their medications properly and what the side effects are instead? How about teaching your patients what the components of the diet you impose on them are? How about asking a patient if they can READ before you give them 50 pages of gobblety gook to take home to read alone just so you can get out of the examination room in under ten minutes? If you truly want to impact your patient's state of health, then focus on teaching them about what you know........medicine. Leave guns to people who have been trained and credentialed to teach firearm safety. To allow your postion as the white coated professional to be abused in this manner is to ignore it's significance and diminish it's ability to impact the care that you have chosen to devote your life to. If you really believe that any gun owner will change their behavior because you ask them whether they own guns and whether they are locked up, you are deluding yourself. Nobody is against doctors practicing medicine. There are plenty of people who want their physician to stay out of politics, religion, and social issues though.
Lone Gunman, Thank you for your honesty.
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XavierBreath
Member
"Follow this analogy if you will - I ask my patients if they wear their seat belts while driving. It may be none of my business but when they crash and I have to take care of their broken femur and try to coordinate their rehab, it becomes my business. "
Now follow this analogy. If I hire someone to paint my house, it is not his business of what color it is, but what color I want it to be. If I hire a man to cut my grass, it is not his business what kind of grass I have, but how short I want it.
Possessing a gun is no more a health issue than possessing a hammer. I would prefer a physician ask me how many drug addicts I sleep with on a regular basis. At least THAT has something to do with my health!
Now follow this analogy. If I hire someone to paint my house, it is not his business of what color it is, but what color I want it to be. If I hire a man to cut my grass, it is not his business what kind of grass I have, but how short I want it.
Possessing a gun is no more a health issue than possessing a hammer. I would prefer a physician ask me how many drug addicts I sleep with on a regular basis. At least THAT has something to do with my health!
Some Drs. like to infantilize their patients in any of a number of ways. (He's 20 years younger than you are and he introduces himself as Dr. _____while calling you by your first name)! Makes them feel even more important. In China they have the status of a school teacher but here they are like high priests in some quarters.
Asking about seatbelts etc. is part of that infantilization I believe: I'm an adult and you can't think for yourselves! Anyhoo, mine happens to be very down to earth but should I ever be asked that guns question I would lecture him for asking it but answer it falsely if only to throw off any statistics the AMA might be keeping!
Asking about seatbelts etc. is part of that infantilization I believe: I'm an adult and you can't think for yourselves! Anyhoo, mine happens to be very down to earth but should I ever be asked that guns question I would lecture him for asking it but answer it falsely if only to throw off any statistics the AMA might be keeping!
Sign in Dr. Khornet's office:
IF YOU HAVE GUNS AT HOME
It's none of our business.
Please be sure to store and handle them safely, and if you are unsure how to do it, seek the advice of a qualified firearms instructor.
-----------------------------------
I've been on both sides of this. My kids' pediatrician is a real Leftist, and has the question on his standard intake form. My kids have been instructed to refuse to answer and tell him he will hear from me. I'm 20 steps away from his door. He knows better now. Nice enough guy, good doc too, just miseducated. My local gunshop owner had the same question put to his kids by the same guy, and closed shop, drove up to the office, and let him have what for in no uncertain terms. Bravo Zulu.
OTOH, I do ask about guns when indicated: severe depression always gets a question about suicidal thoughts, and if answered yes, how would you do it. If the plan is plausible, and a gun is involved, I have in fact contacted the spouse and had her remove the guns. I didn't have to like it, but my duty was to the patient and family. I'd do it again.
Patients with certain symptoms/lab results get asked if they are shooters, and especially do they cast/handload, wear hearing protection, etc. All in the interest of keeping shooting safe and fun.
Patients who, when they remove their jackets, reveal an empty holster, are quietly told that they need not be disarmed in my office.
I put the sign up because all the surrounding offices, if they have anything gun-related posted at all, are uniformly anti, such as the one with a hand holding a .38 Spl round and the words "Every 12 minutes a child in America dies from one of these." GRRRR....
IF YOU HAVE GUNS AT HOME
It's none of our business.
Please be sure to store and handle them safely, and if you are unsure how to do it, seek the advice of a qualified firearms instructor.
-----------------------------------
I've been on both sides of this. My kids' pediatrician is a real Leftist, and has the question on his standard intake form. My kids have been instructed to refuse to answer and tell him he will hear from me. I'm 20 steps away from his door. He knows better now. Nice enough guy, good doc too, just miseducated. My local gunshop owner had the same question put to his kids by the same guy, and closed shop, drove up to the office, and let him have what for in no uncertain terms. Bravo Zulu.
OTOH, I do ask about guns when indicated: severe depression always gets a question about suicidal thoughts, and if answered yes, how would you do it. If the plan is plausible, and a gun is involved, I have in fact contacted the spouse and had her remove the guns. I didn't have to like it, but my duty was to the patient and family. I'd do it again.
Patients with certain symptoms/lab results get asked if they are shooters, and especially do they cast/handload, wear hearing protection, etc. All in the interest of keeping shooting safe and fun.
Patients who, when they remove their jackets, reveal an empty holster, are quietly told that they need not be disarmed in my office.
I put the sign up because all the surrounding offices, if they have anything gun-related posted at all, are uniformly anti, such as the one with a hand holding a .38 Spl round and the words "Every 12 minutes a child in America dies from one of these." GRRRR....
Balog
Member
Wow, kids are dying from cartridges? I thought they had to be fired out of a gun first. Shows what I know.
clubsoda22
member
I got asked that by my former doctor.
I told him it was none of his business and that his malpractice insurance doesn't cover him for gun advice as it is out of the scope of his practice.
I told him it was none of his business and that his malpractice insurance doesn't cover him for gun advice as it is out of the scope of his practice.
Well, there have certainly been some ignorant comments made, but there is no sense in singling them out. There have also been good points made. I believe there is no need for this type of question as a general screening question unless there is some direct evidence for the need to ask. I believe most physicians would agree with this.
As for some of the posters, unless you have been in the medical field or seen patients you really have no idea what goes on and the kind of people you meet and situations you face. People expect you to be perfect in everything you do, and by god you should be to the best of your ability. I would wager that most doc's who ask about guns have never thought about the political implications of the question, and may just need to be educated. We can work on that. The doctor-patient relationship has changed to the point that I consider people partners in their healthcare, I inform them, and they make the decisions. No politics, no bull????.
Sorry this has gotten off-topic, it just frustrates me to read so many disparaging comments, and I want people to realize that there are some (not many) physicians who are very supportive of the second amendment, and there are many physicians (and regular people) who are ignorant about gun-related issues. It reminds me of when I go to get my car repaired (non-german BTW) and here people talking about their prostrates...
Greg
As for some of the posters, unless you have been in the medical field or seen patients you really have no idea what goes on and the kind of people you meet and situations you face. People expect you to be perfect in everything you do, and by god you should be to the best of your ability. I would wager that most doc's who ask about guns have never thought about the political implications of the question, and may just need to be educated. We can work on that. The doctor-patient relationship has changed to the point that I consider people partners in their healthcare, I inform them, and they make the decisions. No politics, no bull????.
Sorry this has gotten off-topic, it just frustrates me to read so many disparaging comments, and I want people to realize that there are some (not many) physicians who are very supportive of the second amendment, and there are many physicians (and regular people) who are ignorant about gun-related issues. It reminds me of when I go to get my car repaired (non-german BTW) and here people talking about their prostrates...
Greg
ny32182
Member
More to the point, this is total crap anyway... that would be 43,800 "children in America" every year. There are just over 30,000 deaths by firearm every year in the US for all ages combined, both justified and not justified.
clubsoda22
member
goober, i'm an EMT working on a nursing degree and the only time i've ever asked a patient if he had a gun was if there was a bullet in him and i was concerned about getting a bullet in me.
Unless there is a bullet in me, it's not my doctors place to ask.
Unless there is a bullet in me, it's not my doctors place to ask.
Jayman
Member
I guess I must be fortunate, my doc doesn't seem to care much about 'em either. Last physical he just told me to set my gun up on the counter while he looked me over. I'm glad this thread hasn't turned 100% physician bashing...
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