Gun Control and Civil Disobedience

[Zedicus]

All to True...

 

[Kim]

Women marched in the streets in DC for years. Blacks marched in the streets for years. Gays have marched in the streets for years. Pro- Choice abortion supporters marched and still march in the streets. Anti-war things march evetime there is a war.. Union workers strike. Gun owners................................. .. .. . . . . .

 

[Cannonball888]

I'm sure many individuals and organizations would actively protest if rallied by a leader. Why hasn't the NRA ever organized a national march?

 

[RedLion]

It doesn't matter what you think...only what fed.gov thinks. It's not right, but it is what it is. Those people at Waco were pretty well armed, but what happened in the end? Even though they may have been in the wrong, they resisted and were ultimately destroyed. In the end, the fed.gov ultimately got their arms. Ruby Ridge, too. ANY armed standoff with fed.gov is NOT going to end well for any civilian(s). You think you can really fight off the local police supplemented by the National Guard and possibly other military support? I don't like it any more than you do, but that's how it is. 1) turn them over peacefully and live another day with your family, 2) resist and get arrested...fed.gov still gets your guns via confiscation, or 3) resist with lethal force and you're a gonner and fed.gov still gets your guns. This isn't like colonial times when we had equivalent weapons. We've been FAR outclassed for a long time. I don't know about you, but I don't think even a bunch of civilians banded together will last very long against armored vehicles, mechanized infantry, armed helicopters, hordes of troops with select fire weapons, body armor, grenades, etc...when/if they come for them. Katrina might just be a taste of what's to come, legal, constitutional...or not.

The Boston Massacre, some historians believe, was caused by insubordinate Americans who were throwing snowballs and hitting the British troops. I'm sure that if that happened to our troops in Iraq, Afghanistan, Kosovo, ect we would agree with the actions the soldiers took. It goes to show that if the Government appears to reply with disproportionate force, people get pissed, whether it is justified or not. Take for example the instances you mentioned with Waco and Ruby Ridge, even now people still look on those situations as abuses of the federal government's power and those people were just concerned about getting away from the government, not fighting for the restoration of freedom and liberty in America.

 

[wally]

When they get serious about the next AWB or whatever, we need to organize a "Million Gun March".

Irag proves that to the Dems, one month's worth of car crash victims dying in five+ years of fighting equals defeat and an unwinable war. If we don't roll over, the ones pushing it won't have the guts to follow thru!

We will win the Second American Revolution if we remember what it was the Brits were marching on Concord and Lexington to seize that started the first one!

--wally.

 

[bogie]

It'll never work.

You cannot organize gun people to do anything. You'll get a few percent, but the rest will argue about it.

 

[Mr White]

Sadly, bogie, you hit it squarely on the head. If we were as united as some of the other interest groups, and had a powerful lobby like the NRA behind us, we'd be unstoppable.
We're so fragmented and apathetic as a whole, I fear it'll take a very drastic action aginst s to wake up any more than the most devoted of us.

 

[RedLion]

You cannot organize gun people to do anything. You'll get a few percent, but the rest will argue about it.

I have to disagree with you there. Maybe its because I'm young, but I think we are still capable of organizing and fighting. I think right now we are superficially peaceful and compliant here in the USA because we have more money than we know what to do with. Look at Afghanistan. They stood up to the Soviet empire. They were a rag tag bunch of tribes men that the whole world would have laughed at to see on the battlefield, but they fought harder than anyone could have imagined because they knew they had nothing to lose.

You can easily say we would never be motivated, I say wait till the government regulations put this country into a serious pickle.

You can say we'll need outside help if we ever do decide to fight, I say maybe, we have the resources now to stock up, and if we lose that I will look to freedom loving people everywhere. ( remember we fought the French in America just prior to the revolutionary war AND France still helped us even though we were intent on destroying monarchies.)

like Ghandi said " be the change you want to see in the world"

 

[bogie]

The NRA is a FRAGMENT of what it could be.

And civil wars suck.

Ghandi didn't go against the Nazis. They would have silenced him immediately.

Deer Hunters don't want to play with Highpower Shooters don't want to play with Duck Hunters who think that Combat Pistol folks are crazy... Get everyone in one room for a club meeting, and they sit around and bitch that THEIR part of the club isn't getting enough, rather than trying to work to make sure that the overall club is successful.

And on a national level, it's even worse. My little poll (should be visible on the main General page) has 50% of the respondents doing NOTHING. Bleepin' WAL-MART threads get more twitches out of y'all. I can type 120wpm, but I'm getting a little tired of playing bloody organizer/cheerleader.

"Oh, we can't change things. They're the laws. They're the rules. They're the policies."

Gotta tell you, that w(h)ine went bad a LONG time ago...

Work together. Change the world. Or give up.

 

[the iron horse]

Carry a copy of the U.S. Constitution in your wallet

and carry.

 

[Samuel Adams]

I'm sure many individuals and organizations would actively protest if rallied by a leader. Why hasn't the NRA ever organized a national march?

The NRA sold their souls to the GOP years ago. Gun Owners of America, on the other hand, just might be up to the task.

 

[ColinthePilot]

phoglund, have you ever been in the military? There's this little thing called the UCMJ and the oath where we swear to OBEY the orders of the officers appointed over us. We're also sworn to uphold and defend the Constitution, but if something happens and gun confiscation/ownership ban becomes LEGAL, don't think that the military won't respond if directed. No military member wants to go to Leavenworth or the like for disobeyal of a direct order. After all, if it's supposed to be a "peaceful" collection, what's to worry? What happened in Katrina was NOT legal or Constitutional, yet it still happened with police and military (National Guard) support. Even if it's not total military/police cooperation, those remaining will always have superior firepower and we will, sadly, not last long. Remember, there's always the UCMJ treason charge, too. If it becomes "us against them", any military member siding with "us" could be charged with aiding and abetting the "enemy/us/civilians" and be summarily put to death...if it comes to that. Our military members are in Iraq helping the people there who are supposed to be on "our side", but think what would happen to that troop who sympathized with the fundamentalists and picked up arms against the US military. Nothing good would ever happen to him...or her, to be PC.

You got the order there wrong, Sonyhoppes. The first oath I took was to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic. See:

I, (state name), having been appointed a second lieutenant in the United States Air Force, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter, so help me God.

I don't remember swearing anything about obeying orders, muchless unlawful ones. In fact, I'm pretty sure its one of my duties NOT to obey unlawful orders. Like that whole US forces not being used against US citizens. I'm sure I read that in the Constitution or the UCMJ or something. If Martial Law doesn't make you stand up and start defending with lethal force, what will?

 

[carlrodd]

geez sonyhoppes, you're stance is as aggravating as armchair rambos who are 'itching for a fight'. i can tell you one thing i do know from examining world history closely and often....when people who are convicted(mentally/morally/emotionally) of something are pushed into a corner, they fight, and frequently have overcome tremendous odds, and achieved wondrous things in the face of what appeared to be certain defeat. another thing i have learned is that those who have given up or given in before a fight even began, who resigned themselves to defeat....those people never achieve anything in the face of any odds, because they never set out to. you remarked how our country's revolutionary fathers were comparably equipped to the enemy in their struggle, unlike the situation that exists today with our federal government, local law enforcement, etc.....you need to reread your history.

god only knows what's in store for this country that seems so often to be bent on self-destruction. but if those that claim to represent us and lead us dare in my lifetime to brazenly disregard the law of our land and our liberties to such an extent that many of us would feel the need to use our arms, i pray my friends and neighbours at the very least won't have capitulated to the 'inevitable'.

we are an extremely well-armed populace, and even a very small percentage of gun owners, determined to defend their right to keep their arms would pose an unfathomable obstacle to any force that would seek to disarm them. authoritarian-minded individuals in our government have and do most assuredly consider this fact long and hard on a regular basis, which is why, sonyhoppes, you haven't handed over your instruments of liberty yet.

 

[bogie]

Yeah, and the GOA every so often gets as freaky as a Ron Paul supporter on hemp brownies...

And it's a symptom right there that we can't play together. How many "gun rights" organizations are there?

vs.

How many "old folks/retirement" organizations are there?

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Enlisted take a different oath

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).

 

[BigBadJohn]

I think a total ban will eventually happen, with the ammo debacle being first ,permanent awb next followed by a total ban with the exception of rim fires and shot guns. I believe most people would turn them in for reasons stated in other posts. But there will always be guns just illegal ones like the criminals have now who don't follow the gun control laws anyway.

 

[sm]

Under a government which imprisons unjustly, the true place for a just man is also a prison. -Henry David Thoreau

The inherent right in the people to reform their government, I do not deny; and they have another right, and that is to resist unconstitutional laws without overturning the government -Daniel Webster

Good men must not obey the laws too well. -Ralph Waldo Emerson

When the policeman become the criminal, the criminals must become policeman - Ayn Rand

 

[SupernovaNole]

In my initial post I was thinking more of hiding guns and non-violent protest as opposed to armed confrontation.

The government is not going to get my guns. I'm not going to die for them but they aren't going to get them.

SupernovaNole

 

[bogie]

A hidden gun is useless.

Ten years after the ban, some guy breaks in your house. You shoot him, and he limps off to the hospital. The cops show up, and arrest him. He gets six months in jail. Then they show up and arrest you. You get ten years, and your house gets confiscated.

The time to do things is NOW, and the battlefield is the arena of public opinion. TALK to people. Urge them to ask questions.

 

[SupernovaNole]

Did you miss the part in my post about non-violent protest?

And the old adage "It's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6" would come into play.

And I'd hope the idea of "Nullification" mentioned earlier would come into play. I just hope I have a gun owner on the jury.

I believe that if there was an attempted gun grab you would see marches on Washington like we've never seen before.

Gun Owners are self reliant people by nature and if their means of protection are denied they would not take it lying down.

At least that is my hope. I know I would be camped out on the Mall in Washington.

SupernovaNole

 

[Elm Creek Smith]

UCMJ

892. ART. 92. FAILURE TO OBEY ORDER OR REGULATION

Any person subject to this chapter who--

(1) violates or fails to obey any *lawful* general order or regulation;

(2) having knowledge of any other *lawful* order issued by any member of the armed forces, which it is his duty to obey, fails to obey the order; or

(3) is derelict in the performance of his duties; shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

-----

The key is "lawful order," not any order.

 

[Navy joe]

So how exactly would a order to aid in confiscation of guns be lawful? The Navy for one has a long tradition of telling people to take a long walk off a short pier. Maybe I'll be judged wrong at the court martial, but you give me that order, it's not lawful, it is repugnant to the Constitution, congratulations, you just became the domestic enemy.

I've done the civil disobedience thing already re. guns, nobody but me knew, hey concealed means concealed. Civil disobedience will not work with a total confiscation unless we get gunowners to literally stand shoulder to shoulder armed around the beltway. Doubt it will happen. I believe that confiscation is unlikely but if it happens what is the combatant status of the enforcers? I do not wish to be non-Highroad, but I read my Constitution, I'm the militia and it seems disarming me is a pretty overt act of war. Civil disobedience may not deter all. I don't wish to chest beat and bleat, but I think it may be hard to resist an unconstitutional law of confiscation in a civil manner.

The ballot box is being tainted.

The jury box has been given its "instructions" by the judge and is intellectually dead.

The soap box is pushed out of politics by organized money.

What other way do we have left?

 

[bogie]

I seem to remember something about Patton breaking up a little disturbance march...

We need to go for public awareness and public opinion, but gun nuts know bleep-all about public relations.

 

[Run&Shoot]

There are many ofrms of protest:

- VOTE like you are a gun owner and try to educate and influence friends and family to do the same or at least respect gun owner rights. Too many gun owners are married to one or the other political party regardless of how their representative/exectuive votes or acts. We gun owners (even those who had boating accidents ) need to vote to protect gun rights even if it means crossing our loyal party lines. with 70 million gun owners we should not be having any restrictions if we stood together at the voting booth.

- Buy guns and ammo and help or influence others to do the same. Restrictions can only be approved and supported when only a small d=fraction of the population is directly affected. In Boston t. Party's book Molon labe he makes the case that any segment of more than 5% of the total population is somewhat immune to aggressive restriction. That is about 15 million voters in the US. Similarly, any segment of less than a 1/3% (1 million) is easily marginalized as "extreme" and will have no popular support. We need to have at least 15 million AR owners, 15 million .50 BMG owners, 15 million class III ownwers, etc. At about 1/4 million ARs sold per year, I don't think we are anywhere near those 5% numbers yet so we have a lot of new gun owners to get started and join our ranks.

- Street marches and unarmed civil disobedience. We have not done this at all, YET! we need to start. Be visible. Make sure. Our efforts with emaail and internet have been very successful, but we will need to step it up to the street if we want to prevent or rollback restrictions.

- My cold dead hands. Yes, only a fraction of us will choose to go out fighting. It may be futile, or maybe not. Sometimes you have to fight even when there is no hope of winning because fighting the evil is the right thing to do. we CANNOT all base our decisions on whether we are guaranteed to stay alive or be comfortable. Even those who die win a small victory. The names Waco, the Weavers and and Ruby Ridge are seared in many of our minds. Randy Weaver lost his wife but in the end he won in court and in public support and the BAFTE and FBI were shown up for what they are. Pretty dang hard for a family man to make this choice, so those of us with grown children, and those not yet married really have to step up to the plate on this level.

I like Boston's discussion of this in his Gun Bible. Let's hope we can change the course of events before they unravel any more.

 

[Perk]

Submitted for your consideration:

Lead-based ammunition use is, now, legally frowned-upon within a considerably populated portion of California, where the California condor is protected. Look it up. There's a large area of unleaded, trailing eastward, from around the Los Angeles basin. And, the sanctuary, for that big ol' scavenger, extends through a few states (though, lead is not banned in all of the sanctuary area. Yet.)

Happened at about the same time (historically) that code etching was passed into law.

~ Also ~

Juries must be sequestered, in order that they may base their decision of guilt, or innocence, upon only the evidence presented them, during the trial proceedings. Congress has no such restraints. And, every time some fool sprays a crowd with gunfire, the leading news associations clamber over each other to spray the populace with every gory detail. You think our congressional members can’t hear that clambering? Think again.

It has been suggested, that one may learn a great deal about the tricks of a magician, by forcing one’s self to look, specifically, where one has been directed to not look.