SupernovaNole
Member
Yes but in this case his post is highly relevant and appropriate...
SupernovaNole
Gun Control and Civil Disobedience
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Yes but in this case his post is highly relevant and appropriate...
SupernovaNole
SupernovaNole
Member
Actually it is still Godwin...
"The rule does not make any statement whether any particular reference or comparison to Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate, but only asserts that one arising is increasingly probable."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
bogie
Member
Actually, I think taking out civilian supporters, politicians, etc., should the first wave of guerrilla warfare. And I think that they need to start considering that that is likely to happen. Our arguments have few teeth, because we, are for the most part, well-behaved. We talk about "the blood of tyrants." The day may come where we have to do something about spilling some of it.
The truly excellent thing about a well-trained rifle marksman is that there will be very little collateral damage.
Now, could we QUIT bitching about Godwining the thread, ignore the whole concept, and come up with a solution so I don't have to go out shooting folks?
The truly excellent thing about a well-trained rifle marksman is that there will be very little collateral damage.
Now, could we QUIT bitching about Godwining the thread, ignore the whole concept, and come up with a solution so I don't have to go out shooting folks?
Joe Demko
Member
Who are the tyrants, Bogie? Are you the one who gets to decide who the tyrants are? Is it Oleg? Or, if we go down this road, is it just going to be everybody with the urge to kill murders whomever he considers politically dangerous? How unfortunate it would be for you, or for Oleg, if somebody with a rifle decided you were a liability, or a stoolie, or just insufficiently zealous.
It's really worked out swell, too, hasn't it in other places where mass murder was used as a political tool.
bogie
Member
Okay, Joe... It's 2009, and the "Hazardous Weapons Ban of 2009" just got signed into law by President Obama. They're going to go door to door with the lists they're getting from the 4473, and "recover" all firearms.
What are you gonna do?
If you're going to resist, resist in a focused manner.
What are you gonna do?
If you're going to resist, resist in a focused manner.
BattleChimp Potemkin
Member
If we kill dissidents (in our eyes), what does that make us? Monsters? Murderers? Keep in mind, its all about how people see you. We would be no better than those opposed to us. Think targets, not people. If diplomacy fails ultimately (key word here, ultimately), we have to think strategically. This is chess, not checkers. But the key idea is not to allow diplomacy fail. I dont think of my guns as a last resort. I think of them as a stand off weapon. My AR the Minuteman missile. My AK the Exocet antiship weapon. We are presently in a rapidly warming Cold War with those opposed to our constitution (not our guns, our lifestyle as freedom loving americans). The arms in this race? Political power! How do we get political power? Support grassroots efforts against gun control. Focus on the individual countries, not the entire warsaw pact (to use an example). Join attempts to get people comfortable with guns (bring friends to the range, let them see safe shooting and dont scare off those interested in shooting with one's opinion on what they should buy or what not, or yelling at people who do something wrong at the range). Think long term, instead of what we can consider easy (I would nothing more than to leave my entire neighborhood filled with hot brass in an attempt to leave town as the government is forming roadblocks b/c I feel our attempts at being a people, rather than a nation have failed). Does that make me a better person? No, for if I survive, I will be a bitter, broken man like my father who fought in war; forever scarred and hating the world. I would care not to be that man.
Joe Demko
Member
Which has exactly what to do with "wiping out civilian gun control supporters?"
General Geoff
Member
Scary proposition all around.
bogie
Member
Well, there's the easy way, and the hard way.
The easy way is ensuring the second amendment's, and the republic as a whole's, survival through a peaceful political process.
The hard way is armed revolt. And the hard way will be most effective if political enemies, rather than a standing army, is targeted. That's guerrilla warfare 101 in a nutshell.
Suggested reading for you - John Ross' Unintended Consequences.
Now, you guys COULD be talking to college/university administrators and faculty... We -could- be making a MAJOR inroad into academia, which is -ripe- to embrace a safety measure... We -could- be doing this... But that poll I launched yesterday had maybe 20-30 people respond. Out of 60,000 members here.
Sad. Nothing but sad.
The easy way is ensuring the second amendment's, and the republic as a whole's, survival through a peaceful political process.
The hard way is armed revolt. And the hard way will be most effective if political enemies, rather than a standing army, is targeted. That's guerrilla warfare 101 in a nutshell.
Suggested reading for you - John Ross' Unintended Consequences.
Now, you guys COULD be talking to college/university administrators and faculty... We -could- be making a MAJOR inroad into academia, which is -ripe- to embrace a safety measure... We -could- be doing this... But that poll I launched yesterday had maybe 20-30 people respond. Out of 60,000 members here.
Sad. Nothing but sad.
takhtakaal
Member
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2007
- Messages
- 853
Okay, this thing is wobbling dangerously.
We do realize, don't we, that certain parties here are openly discussing sedition, right?
If we could get Teddy to drive them around, we wouldn't have to do a thing.
We do realize, don't we, that certain parties here are openly discussing sedition, right?
If we could get Teddy to drive them around, we wouldn't have to do a thing.
Joe Demko
Member
I read "Unintended Consequences." I wasn't impressed.
Who are the tyrants, Bogie? Maybe I'd find you more persuasive if I knew who it is you want to kill. Right now, this sounds an awful lot like "let's kill everybody we don't like."
bloodedsky
member
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2007
- Messages
- 166
This is a forum peopled with staunch supporters of America, American liberties, and American comraderie. And yet here we are, hashing out a theoretical civil war, in some cases defending the necessity behind such a war.
Just goes to show that a lot of us are probably full of hot air when we talk about how much we love our country and how much we should stick together.
I'm sickened.
Just goes to show that a lot of us are probably full of hot air when we talk about how much we love our country and how much we should stick together.
I'm sickened.
bogie
Member
Well, sooner or later, we have to acknowledge the reasoning behind the second amendment.
It wasn't about hunting.
It wasn't about safety from muggers or nutjobs.
It was about ensuring the capability of armed overthrow of the government.
That's history folks.
Let's see... How many of you will turn your boomsticks in? How many of you intend to bury them in their own little coffins, until you become senile and forget about them? Or maybe you're one of the game players who dreams about an armed fortress, holding off the minions of gun confiscation... Or, if it comes to it, can you be part of the guerrilla force?
We can vote. We can vote in primaries and in general elections. We can use the ballot box. But the cartridge box has to be in reserve. As with the concept of voting from the rooftops.
Personally, I prefer the ballot box. I'm too old and fat for the rest...
It wasn't about hunting.
It wasn't about safety from muggers or nutjobs.
It was about ensuring the capability of armed overthrow of the government.
That's history folks.
Let's see... How many of you will turn your boomsticks in? How many of you intend to bury them in their own little coffins, until you become senile and forget about them? Or maybe you're one of the game players who dreams about an armed fortress, holding off the minions of gun confiscation... Or, if it comes to it, can you be part of the guerrilla force?
We can vote. We can vote in primaries and in general elections. We can use the ballot box. But the cartridge box has to be in reserve. As with the concept of voting from the rooftops.
Personally, I prefer the ballot box. I'm too old and fat for the rest...
bluestarlizzard
Member
first, the point of civil disobediance works because so many folks are breaking the rules that those in power CAN'T physycally punish all who are disobaying the rules.
second, those worried about getting arrested and hurt, guess what? PROTESTERS WERE KILLED DURING THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT. yep, those peaceful protesters had firehoses and attack dogs set on them.
so the question is how much to you believe in this countries future? are you willing to be arrested (as many protesters were during the 50's civil rights movement, the 60's anti vietnam movement) or worse to make things right and correct a wrong or are you going to crawl away whining about not wanting to get in trouble?
the world doesn't accept change without conflict. and in conflict people get hurt.
as for acts of uncivil disobediance, well, i'm absolutly sure this is NOT the place to discuss it. but i am reminded of a nifty quote "Treson is an exscuse created by the winners to hang the losers." now is that quote a real one or was it made up for the musicial?
second, those worried about getting arrested and hurt, guess what? PROTESTERS WERE KILLED DURING THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT. yep, those peaceful protesters had firehoses and attack dogs set on them.
so the question is how much to you believe in this countries future? are you willing to be arrested (as many protesters were during the 50's civil rights movement, the 60's anti vietnam movement) or worse to make things right and correct a wrong or are you going to crawl away whining about not wanting to get in trouble?
the world doesn't accept change without conflict. and in conflict people get hurt.
as for acts of uncivil disobediance, well, i'm absolutly sure this is NOT the place to discuss it. but i am reminded of a nifty quote "Treson is an exscuse created by the winners to hang the losers." now is that quote a real one or was it made up for the musicial?
bogie
Member
Well, given that we can't get more than three gun nuts in a room without political dissent between them, we're going to have problems organizing folks for civil disobedience.
However, that same mindset does make for a group that's well-suited to a disconnected cell guerrilla army...
So...
You guys can either learn to get along, and work as one politically, or you can figure out what you're going to do after they start "recovering" your guns.
However, that same mindset does make for a group that's well-suited to a disconnected cell guerrilla army...
So...
You guys can either learn to get along, and work as one politically, or you can figure out what you're going to do after they start "recovering" your guns.
In general, I think the public is highly detached from guns and very uneducated about them.
I was talking with a guy at work the other day. He's about my age (mid-20's) but from an urban area. We were talking politics and I mentioned that I'd pretty much be a Democrat if they'd keep their paws off my guns.
At first I could tell that he didn't really consider that a serious issue, but when another guy I work with commented on the same thing the conversation started again.
Bottom line is that he grew up in a city. His exposure to guns, in his words was "where I'm from the only people who have guns are criminals, cops, collectors, or people who have been victimized. People think that cities have all the guns but we don't. You guys (rural people) have all the guns!".
He's right.
His exposure to guns ranges from indifferent to negative.
Yes, you could take a guy like that to the range and he'd probably have a slightly different point of view after that. He might even end up with his own 10/22 in a year or so.
But for every one you show that side of gun ownership to, you have the media demonizing it to a hundred more.
That's why civil disobedience won't work at this time. Even if the population takes time away from Oprah and Monday night football to notice what's going on, they won't care.
They'll probably actually think you deserve to be tear-gassed and shot with beanbags because of your refusal to turn in your guns and how unsafe you are making their child's school...
That's what we got.
What are our options from that?
I was talking with a guy at work the other day. He's about my age (mid-20's) but from an urban area. We were talking politics and I mentioned that I'd pretty much be a Democrat if they'd keep their paws off my guns.
At first I could tell that he didn't really consider that a serious issue, but when another guy I work with commented on the same thing the conversation started again.
Bottom line is that he grew up in a city. His exposure to guns, in his words was "where I'm from the only people who have guns are criminals, cops, collectors, or people who have been victimized. People think that cities have all the guns but we don't. You guys (rural people) have all the guns!".
He's right.
His exposure to guns ranges from indifferent to negative.
Yes, you could take a guy like that to the range and he'd probably have a slightly different point of view after that. He might even end up with his own 10/22 in a year or so.
But for every one you show that side of gun ownership to, you have the media demonizing it to a hundred more.
That's why civil disobedience won't work at this time. Even if the population takes time away from Oprah and Monday night football to notice what's going on, they won't care.
They'll probably actually think you deserve to be tear-gassed and shot with beanbags because of your refusal to turn in your guns and how unsafe you are making their child's school...
That's what we got.
What are our options from that?
Evil Monkey
member
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2006
- Messages
- 1,486
I'm truly sickened by some of the pessimistic responses.
The enemy of our freedom exists within this forum, in the RKBA community.
The enemy of our freedom exists within this forum, in the RKBA community.
General Geoff
Member
It's not sedition if the authority you're working against is not lawful.
Cosmoline
Member
I'm sure it would work every bit as well as Prohibition or the federal drug laws.
In spite of the wild-eyed nonsense about UN shock troops going door to door, that's simply not not how law enforcement works. They don't have the money or manpower to do it, even if they wanted to. And if you wait for blue helmets to show up for your iron it will never, ever happen. The change will be the shift from an open market to a black market. Those of us who are smart may even find ourselves making enormous amounts of money as a result, just as many brewers did after the Volstead act.
But there is a potentially very major difference. In the end a more likely worst case scenario isn't feds going door to door, but locals murdering feds door to door. Unless they have military support we outnumber them and outgun them many times over. What might happen is the outright rebellion on the part of at least a few state legislatures, which could lead to some very interesting consequences. Individual gun owners going rogue and making arms for the black market isn't going to cause the downfall of the Republic, but open armed conflict between federal and state law enforcement could, esp. if armed militias are shooting down feds. Add the right mix of economic depression and budget shortfalls to the mix and things could get really interesting really quickly, spiraling out of control. You never know. Even with all its technological might, 99% of the power of the federal law enforcement remains psychological. They don't have the resources to deal with a major uprising without calling in the military. It could get very ugly.
In spite of the wild-eyed nonsense about UN shock troops going door to door, that's simply not not how law enforcement works. They don't have the money or manpower to do it, even if they wanted to. And if you wait for blue helmets to show up for your iron it will never, ever happen. The change will be the shift from an open market to a black market. Those of us who are smart may even find ourselves making enormous amounts of money as a result, just as many brewers did after the Volstead act.
But there is a potentially very major difference. In the end a more likely worst case scenario isn't feds going door to door, but locals murdering feds door to door. Unless they have military support we outnumber them and outgun them many times over. What might happen is the outright rebellion on the part of at least a few state legislatures, which could lead to some very interesting consequences. Individual gun owners going rogue and making arms for the black market isn't going to cause the downfall of the Republic, but open armed conflict between federal and state law enforcement could, esp. if armed militias are shooting down feds. Add the right mix of economic depression and budget shortfalls to the mix and things could get really interesting really quickly, spiraling out of control. You never know. Even with all its technological might, 99% of the power of the federal law enforcement remains psychological. They don't have the resources to deal with a major uprising without calling in the military. It could get very ugly.
BattleChimp Potemkin
Member
+1 Bogie, and I do stand corrected Tyris, to which you have my thanks (I have in this statement, I feel that the world is a better place when we have people that help one another). We would be the persecuted. Bogie: I prefer mobility and have prepared for it with months of cold/hot weather camping with minimal equipment. Staying in place has, historically, been perfect for martyrdom. A martyr is a dead man and a dead man cannot fight, cannot speak out, cannot organize.
Organization? That is up to the individual. One must issue thier own flashpoint orders and act upon them accordingly. Dont form militias. Form groups of trusted people, friends, to which you have had years of practice and experience with. Form plans with them and specific flashpoint "events".
That being said, however, voting and grassroots political movements are far more useful to PREVENT a war. No one should want war. Preparation for war includes sending of munitions to the front, but also diplomats to the embassies. If we leave our "embassies" of our political mind with no one to answer the phone, then all is lost and we are then thrust in to the breach of war b/c of inactivity. Does everyone understand what they are in these scenarios that they paint? They are terrorists (in the eyes of those we are trying to convert due to the media painting us this way), using force to make a political statement. I am comfortable with this concept, however, one must make sure that they use the existing peaceful means of political statement: Voting and speach. Is this what the High Road is about? In my mind, yes. Paratus, my friends! Prepare, but there are more than one way to prepare, to which most folks are unaware.
Organization? That is up to the individual. One must issue thier own flashpoint orders and act upon them accordingly. Dont form militias. Form groups of trusted people, friends, to which you have had years of practice and experience with. Form plans with them and specific flashpoint "events".
That being said, however, voting and grassroots political movements are far more useful to PREVENT a war. No one should want war. Preparation for war includes sending of munitions to the front, but also diplomats to the embassies. If we leave our "embassies" of our political mind with no one to answer the phone, then all is lost and we are then thrust in to the breach of war b/c of inactivity. Does everyone understand what they are in these scenarios that they paint? They are terrorists (in the eyes of those we are trying to convert due to the media painting us this way), using force to make a political statement. I am comfortable with this concept, however, one must make sure that they use the existing peaceful means of political statement: Voting and speach. Is this what the High Road is about? In my mind, yes. Paratus, my friends! Prepare, but there are more than one way to prepare, to which most folks are unaware.
bogie
Member
Well, right now, we have an opportunity to get a dialog started within academia. To maybe get an ACCEPTANCE of the concept of "personal firearm as safety appliance" within academia.
And it's being squandered.
Which is pretty damn sad, considering that the academics tend to be the "thought gatekepers" for a lot of legislators.
If you don't wanna see a civil war start in our lifetimes, a good starting point would be to NOW give folks at your local universities/colleges a call, and ask them "what are you doing to keep my son/daughter/spouse/myself safe next time they're sitting in a class there?" Get them thinking.
Too many of y'all see that something is currently illegal, or against policy, and you LEAVE it... Wrong. We can change laws. We can change policies. Get away from the mindset that the schools taught you. You -can- change things.
And it's being squandered.
Which is pretty damn sad, considering that the academics tend to be the "thought gatekepers" for a lot of legislators.
If you don't wanna see a civil war start in our lifetimes, a good starting point would be to NOW give folks at your local universities/colleges a call, and ask them "what are you doing to keep my son/daughter/spouse/myself safe next time they're sitting in a class there?" Get them thinking.
Too many of y'all see that something is currently illegal, or against policy, and you LEAVE it... Wrong. We can change laws. We can change policies. Get away from the mindset that the schools taught you. You -can- change things.
BattleChimp Potemkin
Member
To my former post: I apologize. Terrorism can be seen to us as freedom fighting, which I am fond of calling it because we would fight against a tryannical goverment. However, unless we are recognized as a foreign entity (government organization) with a nation state status, we are the same insurgents that plague this great nation at current. Sounds terrible, however, study of thier concepts (not tactics, etc...) may be of interest to some. I do not condone thier actions b/c it involves killing of innocents (lets go after the real bad guys here. The person up your street that hates guns is not to be killed, but go after those performing the actual opression).
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