Gun Control and Civil Disobedience

bogie · Feb 19, 2008

So, how many of y'all have taken a moment or two to e-mail or call your local college administrators/faculty?

Let's hear from you.

Tyris · Feb 19, 2008

The enemy of our freedom exists within this forum, in the RKBA community.

Can you explain this to me?

Are you implying that someone on this forum or someone in the RKBA community is passing anti-gun laws?

My take is that freedom is only curtailed by passage and enforcement of laws that restrict the individual.

-T

phoglund · Feb 19, 2008

sonyhoppes:

Actually I have served in the military. I did take that oath and don't think separation from service changes that fact one bit. But I also remember the entire oath. Particularly the first half noted in bold below:

"I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

The way I see it, the clause about supporting and defending the Constitution of the United States trumps the part about obeying the orders of the President and officers appointed over me if they are trying to enforce unconstitutional actions. Indeed if you take the time to peruse the UCMJ you will see that all the articles dealing with disobedience of orders include the word "lawful" before order.

Give up your guns and follow unconstitutional orders/laws if you must. I'll keep mine and defy unlawful and unconstitutional orders.

P.S. I now see others have made the above points for me. Thanks to all of you who see things as I do and said so. I'll leave my comments (above) stand in further support.

BattleChimp Potemkin · Feb 19, 2008

Quote:
The enemy of our freedom exists within this forum, in the RKBA community.

yeah, that strikes me as odd.

goon · Feb 19, 2008

BTW - in spite of being a college student, I hadn't thought of bringing the idea of CCW on campus up to my local administrators.
It's a good idea.
I've been drafting a letter to my rep to work toward across the board legalization of CCW on campus, but now I'll also have to start on this.

Shadowangel · Feb 19, 2008

This is a forum peopled with staunch supporters of America, American liberties, and American comraderie. And yet here we are, hashing out a theoretical civil war, in some cases defending the necessity behind such a war.

Just goes to show that a lot of us are probably full of hot air when we talk about how much we love our country and how much we should stick together.

I'm sickened.

"The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naive and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who loves his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair. "

-H.L. Mencken

bogie · Feb 19, 2008

Jdude · Feb 19, 2008

The political arena is where we need to be working. Everyone will lose in a civil war. When it is done, no matter who comes out on top, our country will be less free.

LB7_Driver · Feb 19, 2008

I won't turn mine in... My right to self defense supersedes the US Government's rights.

SupernovaNole

Would you show me where the government has rights? I can't find that part anywhere in the Constitution.

sonyhoppes · Feb 19, 2008

The government doesn't need rights. They can do whatever they want, right or wrong, by using force or the threat of it. Katrina proved that right then and there with the highly ILLEGAL gun confiscations.

bogie · Feb 19, 2008

guys, let's focus here... Let's not derail the discussion into something about theory.

Let's do something productive and proactive. Or you guys can start talking about burying perfectly good rifles again...

Evil Monkey · Feb 19, 2008

Can you explain this to me?

Pessimism.

Pessimism is what causes ANY and ALL movements to fail. I'm seeing alot of it in this thread. I'd bet that all those who say "we'll never win", "everyone loses", or denying that certain actions must be taken given the oppressors' actions, will all give up on the RKBA cause entirely at some point.

OMGWTFBBQ · Feb 19, 2008

You know, if I hadn't been lurking for awhile I'd say you're all a bunch of crazy lunatics who want to bring down the "gubmint" to keep your precious guns. Hell, if I read this thread last March I would still be anti. All y'all need the chill the hell out and be sensible. You(gun owners in general) have made alot of headway since the 80s and 90s getting shall issue carry passed in 37 states, 2 states don't require permits, 9 are shall issue, and only 2 don't issue, as well as getting castle doctrine passed in alot of states, and stopping the AWB from being renewed. We need to focus on moving forward not going all "paranoid militia" and giving the antis what they want.

Civil disobedience? Ok
The talk about political assassination on a PUBLIC FORUM? Counterproductive to the cause.

JMHO of course...

bogie · Feb 19, 2008

Gun owners refuse to focus and act together.

And they don't have patience. They want it all, right -now!-

We make incremental advances. And gun owners bitch because it's not everything they wanted, or because it's just about handguns, and they're into shotguns. Or because it isn't in _their_ state...

Sigh.

We need to focus, and work together.

Now, instead of making some snarky reply telling me that I'm full of ****, sit back, let your brain regroup, and take that moment to send a note to the president of the school you went to, the school your kids attend, or just the one that you're going to be taking a class at next year.

Okay?

MiddleAgedKen · Feb 19, 2008

It's worth raising the question with administrators, but I doubt a state university could permit carry on campus if it wanted to without a change in the relevant state law. I'll try to look into it.

bogie · Feb 19, 2008

Don't take the time to look into it.

If the college president wants a law changed to allow carry on his campus, it'll probably get changed to allow carry on his campus. If enough of the administrators (by this I mean, deans, etc.)/faculty want it to happen, it'll happen.

Laws and policies are NOT engraved in stone. I'm sick of people saying "It's not policy, so it won't happen," or "It's against the law in my state, so it' won't happen."

Guys, let me hit you one with the Big Hammer o' Truth: We're here to CHANGE the laws and policies.

Or would you rather just have another 9mm vs. .45 thread?

ilbob · Feb 19, 2008

but go after those performing the actual opression

go after them at the ballot box and court room first.

sonyhoppes · Feb 19, 2008

Yup, the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, then the cartridge box.

KBintheSLC · Feb 19, 2008

And if you resist, right or wrong, with lethal force, you, and possibly your family, will be killed. What do you think your neighbors who feel the same was as you are going to do after seeing you (and yours) get wasted? Eff that...(begrudgingly), here you go, Mr. Fed.Gov.

It doesn't matter what you think...only what fed.gov thinks. It's not right, but it is what it is.

Wow. I am glad you were not around to spoil morale during the American Revolution. We would most likely be scraping our knees by bowing to the queen whilst sipping our tea and biscuits right now.

Just keep letting fear control you... that will work. Maybe they will give you your rights purely out of pity.

BTW... whats so wrong with dying for your rights anyway??? Is it okay for other people to do it, but not you? I don't know about you, but my existence is no more precious than any other.

xjchief · Feb 19, 2008

The political arena is where we need to be working. Everyone will lose in a civil war. When it is done, no matter who comes out on top, our country will be less free.

You'd better rethink that one, this country is the product of a civil war and was pretty darn good up until recently.

bogie · Feb 19, 2008

go after them at the ballot box and court room first.

And some of the Opinion Makers for the ballot box and the courtroom are those in the halls of academia. We've got a good excuse to try to sway some of them into rational and logical thought.

Are you going to waste it?

sonyhoppes · Feb 19, 2008

KBintheSLC said:
Wow. I am glad you were not around to spoil morale during the American Revolution. We would most likely be scraping our knees by bowing to the queen whilst sipping our tea and biscuits right now.

What is it that's so hard for you to understand that these are not ancient revolutionary times? Back then the disparity of force wasn't as great. Go back and read my posts about how we're supposed to fight modern mechanized infantry, armed aircraft, armored vehicles, etc. How many grenades, rocket launchers, select fire weapons, etc do you own? Back "in the day", as you're referring to, both sides had similar weapons. Muskets, flintlocks, cannons, ships, bayonets, cavalry and not much else... Go back and read post #7.

You can NOT compare a civilian armed resistance being as successful as the one in revolutionary times. Remember, tactics is what won us our country BACK THEN. Do you think YOUR personal tactics and pitiful weapons cache are going to defeat the superior military machine of today? Don't think so. This isn't about giving up...it's about the inability to defeat superior weaponry and the hordes of people trained very well to use it. Who knows, maybe with visions of Terminator dancing in your head you can send back some "great military leader".

General Geoff said it best in post #8. Look at the cartoon closely. We may very well end up fighting MUCH more than US forces.

KBintheSLC said:
BTW... whats so wrong with dying for your rights anyway??? Is it okay for other people to do it, but not you? I don't know about you, but my existence is no more precious than any other.

Do NOT talk to me about dying for my friggin' rights. I didn't serve 12 years in the US Navy flying armed helicopters for nothing. I NEVER said I'd roll over and just turn them in. I simply listed three choices. 1) turn them in peacefully and live to see another day, 2) resist and get arrested, gov't gets them anyway, and 3) resist with force and get you and, potentially your family, killed and gov't still gets your guns. NEVER said which one I would chose, I ONLY stated that if they really want them, they're going to get them one way or another, comprende? :fire:

soccergod04 · Feb 19, 2008

Sam Adams raised a good point in nullification. Jury nullification changes the case law and the books, which can eventually lead to a change in the law. If there were one pro-gunner with a backbone on the jury of every case involving someone not turning in their newly illegal guns that stood up and refused to convict, the resulting hung jury would gain a pass for the defendant. If enough juries and court cases happen like this, then eventually (in theory) one case would reach the Supreme Court and/or lawmakers and result in a reverse of the ban.

If you want to protect your family and turn in your guns, fine. But if you happen to be in that jury pool, do everything you can to get in and protect the members of the family of gun owners.

Evil Monkey · Feb 19, 2008

KBintheSLC, these are not revolutionary times. Back then the disparity of force wasn't as great. Go back and read my posts about how we're supposed to fight modern mechanized infantry, armed aircraft, armored vehicles, etc. How many grenades, rocket launchers, select fire weapons, etc do you own? Back "in the day", as you're referring to, both sides had similar weapons. Muskets, flintlocks, cannons, ships, bayonets, cavalry and not much else... Go back and read post #7.

You can NOT compare a civilian armed resistance being as successful as the one in revolutionary times. Remember, tactics is what won us our country. Do you think YOUR personal tactics are going to defeat the military of today? Don't think so.

And do NOT talk to me about dying for my friggin' rights. I didn't serve 12 years in the US Navy flying armed helicopters for nothing, dude. I NEVER said I'd roll over and just turn them in. I simply listed three choices. 1) turn them in peacefully and live to see another day, 2) resist and get arrested, gov't gets them anyway, and 3) resist with force and get you and, potentially your family, killed and gov't still gets your guns. NEVER said which one I would chose, I ONLY stated that if they really want them, they're going to get them one way or another, comprende?

This is what I was talking about. This is the enemy from within. The stench of negativity is pungent.

Where'd the Provisional IRA get their weapons? How about the Chechens? The AUC? FARC? ELN? numerous african militias? numerous islamic groups? etc, etc, etc, where and how did they obtain weapons? They eventually got the weapons they needed didn't they? Well then, how is it any different here?

It's not different. Not at all. For whatever the situation, whether getting politically involved all the way to "other" means, you just need WILL and DETERMINATION. Not the hopelessness you embellish.

Like I said before, the enemy exists within.

sonyhoppes · Feb 19, 2008

And exactly how successful were those groups you listed in obtaining their ultimate goal? Maybe you need to go watch Red Dawn again or something.

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