Handloading for Savage 110 in 243

[spitballer]

The more over bore a cartridge is the slower a powder it will like...

I would agree with this, barrel length notwithstanding. Longer barrels can use slower powders too, and it's the relationship between case volume and bore volume that affects propellant selection for a given bullet weight IMO.

Add to this the effect of twist rate and it becomes even more difficult to unravel: according to my reloading manual (which goes beyond just posting load data) experiments have been done in which the rate of twist becomes progressively faster toward the muzzle in an attempt to prolong the pressure curve, presumably by using centrifugal force to keep the bullet tight. Although these attempts were ultimately unsuccessful, it seems to me the idea behind propellant selection for a rifle is to keep the bullet tight for as long as possible, which is surprisingly difficult to achieve with a long rifle barrel - especially when you have small case volume and a slow twist.

Admittedly the .243 may not have such a problem with it's ample case volume, which may in part explain it's popularity.

 

[Bart B.]

On this matter I agree with @Bart B. but he'll explain it better than I can, truing your action will be MUCH more productive than slapping on a new barrel. The overheating issues tend to be exhibited most when things aren't quite square.....if I remember right Bart says he tests his groups in a HOT barrel or maybe sights in with a hot barrel?

I test stuff by shooting 20 shot groups starting with a cold barrel. Most of the time. One shot every 7 seconds for each of two 5-round stripper clips or one 2-round and one full M1 clip; twice for a 20 shot rapid fire shot match. One round every 30 to 40 seconds for 10 to 20 shot slow fire matches. These are the conditions most NRA and CMP high power rifle matches are fired in.

I've never worked up any 308 Win load save one for a new bullet no data existed for. Used the ones with match winning and record setting history. Drove pins (they're smaller than tacks) in all good barrels. A few to several tenths grain spread in charge weights didn't matter.

Someone mentioned starting out seating bullets so their heel was at the case shoulder-neck juncture. Rediculous, in my often challenged opinion.

 

[Bart B.]

it seems to me the idea behind propellant selection for a rifle is to keep the bullet tight for as long as possible, which is surprisingly difficult to achieve with a long rifle barrel - especially when you have small case volume and a slow twist.

I don't know what keeping bullets tight means, but 45.3 or so grains of IMR4895 powder shoots 150 & 155 grain bullets from 308 Win 32" barrels with 1:13" to 1:14" twists very accurate at long range. Barrel groove diameters are typically .0004" or more smaller than bullet diameters.

And 30BR cases shoot 125 grain bullets 1/4 MOA from short 1:18" twist barrels.

 

[Tinybob]

I don't know what keeping bullets tight means, but 45.3 or so grains of IMR4895 powder shoots 150 & 155 grain bullets from 308 Win 32" barrels with 1:13" to 1:14" twists very accurate at long range. Barrel groove diameters are typically .0004" or more smaller than bullet diameters.

And 30BR cases shoot 125 grain bullets 1/4 MOA from short 1:18" twist barrels.

That's good info.

 

[Tinybob]

I got some once fired FC not long ago. Out of forty there were six that had split necks. After cleaning and resizing two more spilt. After loading and shooting three more split. I plan on annealing the rest to try to remedy this problem.

Has anybody else had neck splitting this early with FC brass in 243?

 

[horsey300]

I got some once fired FC not long ago. Out of forty there were six that had split necks. After cleaning and resizing two more spilt. After loading and shooting three more split. I plan on annealing the rest to try to remedy this problem.

Has anybody else had neck splitting this early with FC brass in 243?

Lord no, I use the tar outta fc and haven't had that happen yet, maybe a bad batch?

 

[Tinybob]

Lord no, I use the tar outta fc and haven't had that happen yet, maybe a bad batch?

Maybe so. I did notice sizing was really tough with these. Slowly weeding the bad ones out.

 

[Blue68f100]

I've seen this on 223R brass that a neighbor has. We started anealling every cycle and that put a stop to it for the most part.

 

[Tinybob]

I took advantage of the free hazmat from Natchez and the clearance price, and bought 8lbs of IMR 4166 for lighter bullets in 243 and some 223.

 

[spitballer]

308 Win 32" barrels with 1:13" to 1:14" twists very accurate...

...this is a rather slow twist for a .30 cal. Might this suggest slower-spinning, marginally stable bullets that are stabilizing after they've left the barrel?

By "tight" I mean able to hold back gases and prevent upset, but maybe I'm too focused on the bullet while it's still in the barrel. I can see a marginally stable bullet correcting itself if it's designed correctly...

 

[Bart B.]

Regarding 32" 1:13 or 1:14 twist barrels for 308's:

...this is a rather slow twist for a .30 cal. Might this suggest slower-spinning, marginally stable bullets that are stabilizing after they've left the barrel?

That's been normal since the early 1960's when 7.62 NATO ball ammo was the only round allowed in the British Commonwealth long range matches. Long barrels give the velocity needed to spin those bullets the rpm rate's needed.

No way will marginally stable bullets in the bore become stable after leaving. They cannot change their shape nor center of mass. If the groove diameter is smaller than bullet diameter, all good bullets fired are very well stable which is why the best match grade barrels have groove diameters smaller by a few ten-thousandths than the bullets they will shoot. Bullets .0015" bigger than groove diameter shoot very accurate.

 

[Tinybob]

Regarding 32" 1:13 or 1:14 twist barrels for 308's:
That's been normal since the early 1960's when 7.62 NATO ball ammo was the only round allowed in the British Commonwealth long range matches. Long barrels give the velocity needed to spin those bullets the rpm rate's needed.

Does this same principle translate to smaller bores also?(.224 or .243)

 

[Bart B.]

Does this same principle translate to smaller bores also?(.224 or .243)

Yes. 1:16 twists are great for 22 Hornets shooting 40 grain bullets. Note the first 22 caliber super accurate benchrest rifles had 1:14 or 1:15 twists for their 20" barrels shooting 50 grain bullets. 60 to 70 grain bullets in the 6PPC with 1:14 twists.

All bullets have a small range of spin rate in rpm's they'll stabilize perfectly in normal conditions. Whatever muzzle velocity and twist causes that is good. Spin 'em a little faster in cold weather, a little slower in hot weather.

 

[spitballer]

No way will marginally stable bullets in the bore become stable after leaving...

...got it, guess I've been watching too much football. Interesting note about BC Match also, will check into this thx

 

[Bart B.]

guess I've been watching too much football.

Footballs whose ends are nutating (spiraling) at opposite points about the trajectory axis don't eventually spin true. They're all unbalanced a tiny bit as the heavy point is where the stitches are. Spun on their long axis leaving the throwing hand, they spin pretty good on their long axis.

 

[Tinybob]

I got to snooping around on the web for a COL for the 105gr hybrid target Berger in 243. I couldn't find a clean cut answer on that. Also the length of the bullet itself has me a little nervous I made a mistake getting them. (1:9.25" twist) They're almost a 1/4" longer than the 100gr Pro Hunter.

 

[spitballer]

...ends are nutating (spiraling) at opposite points about the trajectory axis don't eventually spin true...

...right, okay, in the case of a lightweight football in which the rear happens to have a wider circle and receiving more drag there may be some appearance of stabilization over time, but neither the football or the fired projectile will ever truly recover from an unstable condition in which the center is spinning on a relatively stationary axis while the front and rear are revolving in their respective "cones". On the other hand if the projectile is still pointed directly forward at all times despite the effect of a weight variance (like the laces on the football) it will remain relatively stable - this seems to make sense so far. It also points out just how much has to go into the design and production of quality equipment.

"nutation" wow

 

[Bart B.]

On the other hand if the projectile is still pointed directly forward at all times despite the effect of a weight variance (like the laces on the football) it will remain relatively stable - this seems to make sense so far. I

It won't be stable.

Unbalanced bullets will spin about their center of mass which is not on the bullet shape axis or center of form. They'll wobble. Tiny wobble, but enough to open up groups a little.

Tests were made with bullets spinning 30,000 rpm in a Dremel Moto Tool with a collet to hold bullets. The ones unbalanced drew more current to spin them. They also shot bigger test groups than the perfectly balanced ones drawing least current to run the tool. Unbalanced ones caused more load on the motor bearings so more current was needed to spin at speed.

I don't think a football was a good example. Some spin true in spite of the laces' position.

 

[LoonWulf]

^ right theres a use for a dremel id never have thought of, but now that you mention it....thats pretty clever.

 

[spitballer]

Agreed, a football probably wasn't the best example because of it's shape: it's center of mass prevents one end from wobbling more than the other. Nevertheless I've seen passes that settle down and it's enough to cause speculation.

 

[Tinybob]

Does everyone have a Berger loading manual handy? I went out on a limb and got some 105gr hybrid target. Now I'm having trouble finding a COAL for 243. The bullet is 0.208" inches longer than the 100gr SP I've been using. Would it work to add the 0.208 to the minimum COAL of 2.650" to come to a proper COAL?

 

[LoonWulf]

Does everyone have a Berger loading manual handy? I went out on a limb and got some 105gr hybrid target. Now I'm having trouble finding a COAL for 243. The bullet is 0.208" inches longer than the 100gr SP I've been using. Would it work to add the 0.208 to the minimum COAL of 2.650" to come to a proper COAL?

Cant extrapolate a coal from another bullet, unless you know exactly where the ogive of both bullets will contact the rifling, but if you know that you have the equipment to measure it....

Easiest way to find your max coal is to very lightly size a fired case till it will put slight tension on a bullet. From there you can very carefully chamber and remove the test round and then measure the length you get. I usually go a bit farther by sizing the case completely. then spliting the neck with a dremel, and drilling and taping thr primer pocket to 8-32, which is what most universal ram rods are threaded. Once you have the case made u just put a bullet on it and shove it into the chamber with the ramrod threaded in. Pull it out and measure.

 

[Tinybob]

Cant extrapolate a coal from another bullet, unless you know exactly where the ogive of both bullets will contact the rifling, but if you know that you have the equipment to measure it....

Easiest way to find your max coal is to very lightly size a fired case till it will put slight tension on a bullet. From there you can very carefully chamber and remove the test round and then measure the length you get. I usually go a bit farther by sizing the case completely. then spliting the neck with a dremel, and drilling and taping thr primer pocket to 8-32, which is what most universal ram rods are threaded. Once you have the case made u just put a bullet on it and shove it into the chamber with the ramrod threaded in. Pull it out and measure.

Thank you for explaining that method to me!

While waiting on a response I had an idea to seat a bullet and try to chamber it.
I added the extra length of the new bullet to 2.650" and got 2.858".
I sized a case and seated the Berger to 2.858".
I tried the dummy in the magazine,it fit.(WOW! by the way)
I chambered it, it fit there too.
Checked for rifling marks and didn't see any.

Please, tell me what you think.

 

[LoonWulf]

Thank you for explaining that method to me!

While waiting on a response I had an idea to seat a bullet and try to chamber it.
I added the extra length of the new bullet to 2.650" and got 2.858".
I sized a case and seated the Berger to 2.858".
I tried the dummy in the magazine,it fit.(WOW! by the way)
I chambered it, it fit there too.
Checked for rifling marks and didn't see any.

Please, tell me what you think.

Thats another method, you can black the bullet with soot from a lighter, marker, or even lipstick to help see the marks.
The issue with that technique, is that since the neck holds thr bullet tight you cant set it way out and let the rifling push it back. That makes it harder to actually figgure out at what coal you make contact with the riding. What it will do is tell you if coal you picked will touch the rifling.

You may get close to 3" with those bergers actually, mostly depending on your chamber. My .243 took the 95s to 2.95 i think, i know i was right up against the mag box in my gun.

 

[Tinybob]

Thats another method, you can black the bullet with soot from a lighter, marker, or even lipstick to help see the marks.
The issue with that technique, is that since the neck holds thr bullet tight you cant set it way out and let the rifling push it back. That makes it harder to actually figgure out at what coal you make contact with the riding. What it will do is tell you if coal you picked will touch the rifling.

You may get close to 3" with those bergers actually, mostly depending on your chamber. My .243 took the 95s to 2.95 i think, i know i was right up against the mag box in my gun.

Ok thanks again! I'll set up for the method you described tomorrow.