Has the 12 gauge lost popularity as a HD gun over the past few years

[Cee Zee]

Most of the stuff you mention is illegal in most places. Clearly not relevant to the conversation.

Do you have proof of those rounds being illegal in "most places"? Do you really think that dealer would sell those rounds if they were? The locations where the ammo can't be sold is listed with every variety mentioned. Do you REALLY think they sell ammo to places it is illegal to own it? Maybe by "most places" you mean the city where you live. None of that stuff is illegal where I live.

As far as being relevant to the conversation I responded to a point made that an AR was more versatile which is clearly not true. Even with ordinary loads available everywhere the shotgun is far more versatile. And some of those specialty loads could very much be a part of HD if a person wanted to use them.

 

[TarDevil]

My concern with an AR for home defense has more to do with penetration: three or four walls, two of which may be in your neighbor's home.

IMO my 870 with birdshot can take care of the defense of the castle.

Anything capable of penetrating enough to reach vitals will penetrate walls. You need penetration. You also need to be aware of what's behind any walls when you pull the trigger.... shotgun, AR or pistol.
See Box O' Truth if you need more evidence. Birdshot didn't pass muster.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Anything capable of penetrating enough to reach vitals will penetrate walls. You need penetration. You also need to be aware of what's behind any walls when you pull the trigger.... shotgun, AR or pistol.
See Box O' Truth if you need more evidence. Birdshot didn't pass muster.

You need to be aware of beyond... Need I remind you of Brown V US? Let me refresh your memory...

Detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an uplifted knife.

Someone is in your house, you are scared, your adrenaline is pumping, you fall into tunnel vision... Yet, you are going to put all that aside to consider beyond the walls of your house? I'll stick to my modified choke and #2 birdshot just in case should the unthinkable happen I find myself unable to pull my considerations away from the uplifted knife.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

yeah... a shotgun and you don't have to aim...

a standard length shotgun has a pretty darn small spread at let's say 5-7 yds which is a typical self-defense distance.

You are exactly right -- there is virtually no spread at actual gun fighting distances, especially inside a home.

But the statement "you don't have to aim" is actually true. Shotguns are POINTED, not aimed. With a properly fitted shotgun, you get your face down on the comb and you're looking down the barrel.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Someone is in your house, you are scared, your adrenaline is pumping, you fall into tunnel vision... Yet, you are going to put all that aside to consider beyond the walls of your house? I'll stick to my modified choke and #2 birdshot just in case should the unthinkable happen I find myself unable to pull my considerations away from the uplifted knife.

If my children are on the other side of the wall? You betcha!

However, as I have said before, most disasters happen because someone planned to have a disaster or didn't plan at all. The time to consider what's on the other side of the wall is long before the intruder comes. Think through all scenarios and plan accordingly.

 

[Skribs]

Vern, I'm sure you're familiar with Murphy's law regarding the longevity of plans in relation to contact with the enemy..

 

[Officers'Wife]

If my children are on the other side of the wall? You betcha!

However, as I have said before, most disasters happen because someone planned to have a disaster or didn't plan at all. The time to consider what's on the other side of the wall is long before the intruder comes. Think through all scenarios and plan accordingly.

I stand corrected Vern, but it goes back to the old cattleman's logic... You don't get between a cow and her calf. In this case would you care to get between me and my children?

I have to be honest enough with myself to say that I have idea none how I would react. This is why I plan on the shotgun simply because after so many feet the damage is going to be less.

 

[RX-178]

Well, the question kind of depends on your interpretation of it, and I'll explain what I mean by that.

I think that more people than ever are taking the idea of armed defense seriously and practically than ever before, and combined with the declining numbers of self-identified 'hunters', I would say this means there's MORE shotguns being kept for home defense than there have been in the past.

On the other hand though, on a per-capita basis, I think there is a declining popularity in shotguns for home defense, as opposed to a home defense pistol (as CCW is becoming more and more common, and many choose to just keep their CCW pistol in the nightstand or such), or home defense rifle (the AR-15's skyrocketing popularity after efforts to ban them).

On the other hand, the question is has the /12 gauge/ lost popularity, and in the context of shotguns alone perhaps, I would definitely say no, the 12 gauge keeps getting more and more popular as a HD gun when compared to 20 gauge, for instance!

 

[76shuvlinoff]

The 870 12g with 20" smoothbore is popular at my house, it sits right next to the popular 6920.

The difference is it's loaded.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Vern, I'm sure you're familiar with Murphy's law regarding the longevity of plans in relation to contact with the enemy..

It's not Murphy's Law (anything that can go wrong will go wrong) but an Infantry School adage (No plan survives contact) that you're thinking of.

That doesn't mean that you DON'T plan, however. Instead, you need to plan DIFFERENTLY.

That's why I used to emphasize "robust tactics" -- tactics based not on the assumption that things will go as you plan, but rather on the certainty they will NOT go as you plan. Robust tactics call for flexibility, balanced dispositions, a reserve, extra ammunition, and so on.

 

[Old judge creek]

I used a 12 ga for hunting from the time I was 12 years old until 1970. In 1970 my browning A5 was stolen and all I could afford was an inexpensive SxS 20 Mag; I used it for 11 years in the field trying my best to convince myself that a 20 was as good as a 12... It ain't and it never will be.. period, end of story.

I bought a 12ga Citori and that was the start. Since then I've used O/U, autos, pumps and SxS and even little 20" Coach Guns. They all get the job done.

Simply put, the 20 "will" serve for HD and game on the table. A 12 will do it better.

About 15 years back I bought a little Stoeger 410 Uplander to use whilst my shoulder healed from a injury on a prospecting trip. I decided to put it on paper with several different loads and the result was amazing to me: While my preference for HD would be a 12 hands down, I'd not feel a bit under gunned with a 410 loaded with #3 Buck. Ever since then I've had my eye out for one of those little Remington 410 pumps that used to be everywhere. Trading the one I acquired in a trade a nd hastily got rid of was just about my biggest "gun trade" error.

 

[flphotog]

I've got a semi auto 12 gauge within reach but would probably reach for the 1911 on my nightstand first.

 

[Kiln]

I think a part of the reason they are somewhat less popular is that people have actually started thinking about the reprocussions of firing a 12 guage in a confined space like a bedroom.

That's why I switched to a handgun from a 12 gauge.

 

[larbear]

The pump shotgun hasn't gone anywhere. The beauty of it is simplicity of action. The action of cycling a round (raking) in its self if formable. During my requalification it was called charging for psychological affect. Everyone knows what that sound means. Put some #4 buck and you have a formable HD weapon and no over penetration issues.
just saying.

 

[22-rimfire]

Is the shotgun still your go to gun when you hear a noise in the dead of night?

I keep a loaded 12 ga shotgun in my house. But honestly, I generally would reach for a handgun for most noises. But it really depends on the noise.

The cost of a basic shotgun is important to the home defense argument as it allows more people to be armed.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

I asked Loui Awerbuck a few times over the last few years on which platform he thought was best for home defense. I had all three to choose from and had taken the appropriate classes so it wasn't a skill or a tool issue. He felt that the shotgun delivered the best damage per shot (not exactly how he phrased it). I trust him. It was already my weapon of choice and I see no reason to change, even if reliable small arms lasers become a reality in my lifetime.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

I keep a loaded 12 ga shotgun in my house. But honestly, I generally would reach for a handgun for most noises. But it really depends on the noise.

The cost of a basic shotgun is important to the home defense argument as it allows more people to be armed.

The few times I've heard a bump in the night that I was 99.9 percent certain weren't a real goblin, I opted for a handgun to go check it out inside the house. Mostly was a portability thing. Had it been a real threat and child was secure, I plan to stay hunkered down with the shotgun.

Honestly I don't care what an individual chooses. As long as they practice and take some classes they should be ok.

 

[Cee Zee]

I have to be honest enough with myself to say that I have idea none how I would react. This is why I plan on the shotgun simply because after so many feet the damage is going to be less.

That simply isn't true inside of a house. A .223 will do less damage after going through a wall. It doesn't seem logical but logic goes out the window in the face of actual testing. And as Vern said, the time to be aware of what's beyond those walls is long before any bad guys might show up. I work out detailed plans of hiding zones and fire zones where I live. It's not always easy to do but there are choices that are better than other choices. The house I own and lived in until 2 years ago was set up almost perfectly for HD. I had a protected zone where I could hide behind multiple appliances (stand up freezer, hot water tank, stacked washer and dryer) and have a clear shot across my kitchen where any bad guys would end up almost certainly. Behind the kitchen is a bathroom which essentially has basement walls on 2 sides including straight through where I would be shooting so I wouldn't be shooting any neighbors. All I had to do was know where my family was in that house and act accordingly. The house was built for security among other things and there are limited ways a human can get access to it unless they want to cut a new door through a wall. A heavy steel door on the back side of the second floor is the only access that isn't 12 foot off the ground. The house is built into a hillside. I have stone walls on the front to keep any bullets from leaving that direction too and there's mostly another hill out that driection anyway unless I would aim high in one particular direction. So you see how much time I've spent preparing and planning for problems. Protection zones and fire zones are the way I do things. Here's the house so maybe you can get an idea of how it is laid out and how I use that layout to prevent any stray bullets leaving the house. But a .223 still isn't going to do as much damage after it leaves the house than a shotgun firing buckshot.

 

[nathan]

The house looks very ideal for a bug out hideout in the country .

 

[Onmilo]

Shotguns have always remained relevant as combat weapons in America and always will with those that understand combat weapons.

 

[Cee Zee]

The house looks very ideal for a bug out hideout in the country .

You don't know the half of it. Surrounded by hills that are hard to navigate by foot. Thick brush in most directions in key locations. One way in with a vehicle that's easily blocked. Barely visible from the road. An escape path that is almost totally hidden by high banks on both sides. A retreat area that is practically invisible unless you know where to look and where to look from. A drivable trail around my property. ATV trails crisscrossing the area through the thick brush (if you know where to find them) - I worked all this stuff out or most of it anyway before I ever built the house. I can hear them on the news calling it a compound if they ever decide to try to take our guns. There are woods in every direction for miles too so there's cover to bug out. I can make it to a national forest and be gone forever lost on the trails there. I know all of them I believe. I'm talking hundreds and hundreds of miles of ATV trails and abandoned logging roads along with old strip mine roads. When people say they're going to bug out they will be coming to where I live. I will be heading for a cave I know.

 

[george burns]

Beautiful job Cee Zee, you should be commended on a great functional home that may prove very useful in the future.

 

[hatt]

Do you have proof of those rounds being illegal in "most places"? Do you really think that dealer would sell those rounds if they were? The locations where the ammo can't be sold is listed with every variety mentioned. Do you REALLY think they sell ammo to places it is illegal to own it? Maybe by "most places" you mean the city where you live. None of that stuff is illegal where I live.

As far as being relevant to the conversation I responded to a point made that an AR was more versatile which is clearly not true. Even with ordinary loads available everywhere the shotgun is far more versatile. And some of those specialty loads could very much be a part of HD if a person wanted to use them.

They're illegal in FL so that's what I'm worried with. I'd like for you to explain how those rounds make the shotgun more versatile or more effective in a typical or hypothetical civilian homeowner situation? How would you keep the shells separated and accessible so they could be deployed at 3am?

 

[Cee Zee]

I'd like for you to explain how those rounds make the shotgun more versatile or more effective in a typical or hypothetical civilian homeowner situation?

The question was about versatility and not effectiveness and clearly just by their nature they are more versatile. But there are certainly situations where an exploding round might prove useful in a HD situation. And the loading of a large ball along with buckshot is one of the oldest methods of making a firearm more effective known to man. The small shot tears us tissue and the large ball penetrates more so you get the possibility of more bleeding and striking a major organ.

And just as I figured it was illegal where "you" lived so naturally it's useless for everyone. I've explained this enough now. Thanks for participating.

George I appreciate the compliments on the house. We'll be back home before too long. My wife can retire soon and then we will be back in the woods. I live in a nice place now but it's not the house I designed and built. My father did all sorts of custom woodwork for the house too. Even my outlet covers are oak. So are my window frames and sills. It's a beautiful place and my wife is terribly homesick. It's perfect for me and always has been. Plus I have a nice 75 yard shooting range in my yard. I could shoot 100 yards if I wanted but I generally settle for 50 because that's the norm for rimfire shooting. I like pretty much everything about living there except maybe for the neighborhood which can be fairly rough. One end of the road has all nice houses and the other end has a lot of older, run down houses. Nothing wrong with old houses of course but it's the people in them who spend their money and time on things less productive (to be polite about it) that can cause a neighborhood to go downhill. But they all are familiar with me and my arsenal. My house was never broke into until I moved out. Jerks scared my daughter out of the house. They won't scare me away and they have tried. It wasn't locals that did the break in though. They all wonder if I'm going to be there and they know I'll be armed if I am.

BTW the house is a great retreat from the city world but if a true bug out would ever come I'd be moving to the farm. It's one of the more isolated and defensible places I've ever seen that is still capable of supporting life. My family has thrived there for well over a century. There's lots of bottom land for crops and hay and lots of woods as a buffer between the farm and the world. There's a river on the other side. It sits right in the bend of a river actually so it's almost surrounded by a moat. And right in the center is a perfect spot to guard the whole property with one good long range rifle or two. It's seriously isolated too. You have to know it's there or you will likely never find it. And that's where my cave is. We lived off that land when I was a kid between the fish we got from the river and the game from the woods and the crops we grew along with the cattle. We had our own orchard and we picked tons of berries and gathered lots of nuts. We sold berries and apples and once in a while we sold walnuts. I know it will support several people because I lived there and we produced about 95% of what we ate. It wasn't a whole lot different from what you see on those mountain living programs on TV. They exaggerate things of course but we had our own resources and they're still there like a big barn, water, etc.. That place is really home to me.

Don't get me wrong. We didn't live particularly well there but we ate better food than 95% of the people in this country and we managed to get by. Farms just don't produce a lot of money. That's why people left them for the city where they could get jobs in factories.

 

[TarDevil]

Think through all scenarios and plan accordingly.

Ayep. Definitely a plan in our home. No need to even speak, just grab the weapons and scoot. It allows a concentrated fire lane should intruders push that far. Hopefully they'll take what they want and leave instead of breaching our area of retreat.