Vern Humphrey
Member
My choice is my Ithaca Model 37 with a 20" Deerslayer (smoothbore) barrel.
Has the 12 gauge lost popularity as a HD gun over the past few years
- Thread starter george burns
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USAF_Vet
Member
I think for most non-gun enthusiasts, people tend to believe the myths and legends of the 12 gauge shotgun, even Joe Biden buy into it.
For those who haven't educated themselves, I really think they do tend to believe the sound of a 12 gauge action being pumped is the home defense equivalent of Joshua's trumpet, and that by sound alone, they can bring down the walls of Jericho. I think they do believe that you don't really have to aim, just point (which does have some truth to it. Any wing shooter can attest to instinct shooting with a scattergun. But your average home invader isn't a 6 pound pheasant, and your average pheasant is further away, generally, than 7 yards.
If the shotgun has lost popularity as the HD weapon of choice, I think it's because more people are educating themselves in Americas gun culture, and the 'in' thing right now is lightweight carbines. It's a simple matter of following trends. I still believe that most non gun people who want a home defense weapon are still going to go with a stocked (hopefully) shotgun.
For those who haven't educated themselves, I really think they do tend to believe the sound of a 12 gauge action being pumped is the home defense equivalent of Joshua's trumpet, and that by sound alone, they can bring down the walls of Jericho. I think they do believe that you don't really have to aim, just point (which does have some truth to it. Any wing shooter can attest to instinct shooting with a scattergun. But your average home invader isn't a 6 pound pheasant, and your average pheasant is further away, generally, than 7 yards.
If the shotgun has lost popularity as the HD weapon of choice, I think it's because more people are educating themselves in Americas gun culture, and the 'in' thing right now is lightweight carbines. It's a simple matter of following trends. I still believe that most non gun people who want a home defense weapon are still going to go with a stocked (hopefully) shotgun.
SwaneeSR
Member
Shotgun is standing by at the cabin. At home, I have quick access to my carry guns.
IMO my 870 with birdshot can take care of the defense of the castle. But I do have buckshot. Shotgun is very versatile.have a few loads on hand and you can take care of any two-legged or four-legged pest or intruder regardless of size.
IMO my 870 with birdshot can take care of the defense of the castle. But I do have buckshot. Shotgun is very versatile.have a few loads on hand and you can take care of any two-legged or four-legged pest or intruder regardless of size.
Deaf Smith
Member
The 12 is obviously America's favorite HD gun cause it's approved by Joe Slow Biden himself!
Deaf
Deaf
200Apples
Mojave Lever Crew
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lol Swing...
What Swing is referring to is this very recent, five-page thread in the Shotguns forum:
Have tactical shotguns "lost it"? <--- link
lol Swing...
What Swing is referring to is this very recent, five-page thread in the Shotguns forum:
Have tactical shotguns "lost it"? <--- link
justin22885
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i have a shotgun, but prefer my AK, im more comfortable and more proficient with it, also quicker to load.. i've been considering a krink-sized build with a folding stock so i could have one much better suited for close quarters and home defense
i think handguns are better for home defense though, much easier to get to, can keep them on the stand next to your bed, or underneath where you can still reach it.. a handgun with a flashlight on it is the best in my opinion, and i do emphasize flashlights for home defense weapons, dont want to shoot a relative, or my dog by accident
i think handguns are better for home defense though, much easier to get to, can keep them on the stand next to your bed, or underneath where you can still reach it.. a handgun with a flashlight on it is the best in my opinion, and i do emphasize flashlights for home defense weapons, dont want to shoot a relative, or my dog by accident
rbernie
Contributing Member
JohnBT
Member
"a standard length shotgun has a pretty darn small spread at let's say 5-7 yds"
A .223 round has a spread of less than 1/4".
I got my first 12 ga. in 1962 iirc and still don't own a shotgun with a barrel less than 28". Come to think of it, I did own a 24" shotgun in the mid-60s, a Savage .22WMR/.410.
There have never been as many cool accessories for shotguns as there are for some of the rifles. Makes for a poor fad I suppose.
John
A .223 round has a spread of less than 1/4".
I got my first 12 ga. in 1962 iirc and still don't own a shotgun with a barrel less than 28". Come to think of it, I did own a 24" shotgun in the mid-60s, a Savage .22WMR/.410.
There have never been as many cool accessories for shotguns as there are for some of the rifles. Makes for a poor fad I suppose.
John
Relying on a 12 gauge that has never been tested for pattern at various realistic HD ranges is like carrying a pistol that you have never shot after taking out of the box.
A couple of 12's on duty at my place with 00 or #1 Buck in my case have a pattern of 6" at 7 yards and 12" at 15 yards.
And they are popular as always, more so than ever for HD, with the societal degrade of the past 20 years or so.
bannockburn
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My first choice in the HD long gun role is a Maverick 88, currently loaded with Federal Premium LE 00 Buck.
"You best pattern that shotgun At range your talking better be sighting No matter the choke Their not a alley sweeper ."
I never said I would not aim, and I have patterned this shotgun at 21 feet and get a cylinder bore spread of about 6-8 inches on a piece of cardboard. That is much larger than a quarter inch or even a third of an inch spread on a single projectile. I have not failed to blow cans and jugs away with a quick raise to the cheek and pull. Cans and gallon jugs are way smaller than a person at 21 feet. The sighting on a shotgun is not the same as a rifle, it is closer to a point-shoot than a precision line up, plus, practice and more practice gives muscle memory and NPOA a chance to work.
You guys who have had the CQB and tactical training that allows you to take on threats in the dark with a carbine or pistol in the middle of the night...I say more power to you and thank you for all the insight you give us regulars. I am too old and not financially well heeled enough to go to a training program that will give me that insight or capability, hence the reliance on a scattergun with practice
I never said I would not aim, and I have patterned this shotgun at 21 feet and get a cylinder bore spread of about 6-8 inches on a piece of cardboard. That is much larger than a quarter inch or even a third of an inch spread on a single projectile. I have not failed to blow cans and jugs away with a quick raise to the cheek and pull. Cans and gallon jugs are way smaller than a person at 21 feet. The sighting on a shotgun is not the same as a rifle, it is closer to a point-shoot than a precision line up, plus, practice and more practice gives muscle memory and NPOA a chance to work.
You guys who have had the CQB and tactical training that allows you to take on threats in the dark with a carbine or pistol in the middle of the night...I say more power to you and thank you for all the insight you give us regulars. I am too old and not financially well heeled enough to go to a training program that will give me that insight or capability, hence the reliance on a scattergun with practice
200Apples
Mojave Lever Crew
My answer to the OP's question is: No.
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These are two of my pump shotguns; both 870 Wingmasters. One wears a blued, bead-sight, smoothbore cylinder-choke 18.5" barrel... the other a parkerized, Tritium-insert rifle-sights (night sights), smoothbore MODifiied-choke 18.5" barrel and a Wilson Combat 1-shot magazine extension. I plan sling mounts for both but in the house a sling isn't always required. Both are filled w/ 9-pellet 00 buck.
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These are two of my pump shotguns; both 870 Wingmasters. One wears a blued, bead-sight, smoothbore cylinder-choke 18.5" barrel... the other a parkerized, Tritium-insert rifle-sights (night sights), smoothbore MODifiied-choke 18.5" barrel and a Wilson Combat 1-shot magazine extension. I plan sling mounts for both but in the house a sling isn't always required. Both are filled w/ 9-pellet 00 buck.
I don't get this mindset. Violent crime has decreased dramatically in the past 20 years and peaked in 1993. Say what you will about societal an cultural changes but the USA is without a doubt safer than 20 years ago.
As to shotguns for home defense, no doubt they are still the most popular long gun for the purpose. The average gun owner is not an enthusiast the follows trends or even frequently trains or shoots their gun.
I think that understanding of how lighter rifle calibers work and that pump action doesn't somrhow make the shotgun more powerful are big reasons for the 12 guage falling in popularity.
My HD weapons are shotguns, partly because they were what I could afford and partly because my favorite local range has an FPS limit (so those high velocity rifle rounds are a no no, and it becomes a training issue). However, I think the rifle is the better choice under most circumstances.
My HD weapons are shotguns, partly because they were what I could afford and partly because my favorite local range has an FPS limit (so those high velocity rifle rounds are a no no, and it becomes a training issue). However, I think the rifle is the better choice under most circumstances.
blarby
Member
Glad to see Bikerdoc and I have more in common than a burning desire to perpetually combined B/S/T threads.
Although that's pretty cool, too.
With the popular availability of reduced recoil "tactical" buckshot loadings for HD/SD, I would think this chambering even more popular for those mentioned who have issues with full test hunting buckshot.
Although that's pretty cool, too.
With the popular availability of reduced recoil "tactical" buckshot loadings for HD/SD, I would think this chambering even more popular for those mentioned who have issues with full test hunting buckshot.
Neo-Luddite
Member
Two .38 S&W revolvers are the primary bedroom guns, but the Mos 500A is loaded with 3" 000 close at hand.
Plan2Live
Member
Well that and maybe....
One chance of hitting one target with one pull of the trigger vs nine chances.
Assuming similar accuracy, one leaking hole per shot fired vs nine leaking holes.
One chance of hitting the central nervous system, a major organ or major blood vessel per shot fired vs nine chances.
Ammo selection available to allow the system to be used for a variety of uses including non-lethal impact.
I could go on
Wrong. The shotgun is by far the most versatile weapon you can own. It's crazy how many different things you can get one to do. Most people think bird shot, buck shot and slugs. Those 3 things give you a lot of versatility but there's more. Much more. Have a look at the variety of shells you can buy for your shotgun on this web page. It's a long list. Examples include flechettes which cut through heavy brush and still devastate your target. Used largely in Vietnam they will do things no rifle will do. And in a similar vein there's the bolo round which is two balls connected by a wire that cuts down heavy brush among other things. There are flare rounds, door busters, flash bangs, dragon's breath (shoots a stream of fire), and rounds that combine buckshot with a slug which is a combination that has been used for hundreds of years in muskets and long rifles. Then there's my personal favorite, the detonator round. It comes with a hollowed out area where you can load your explosive of choice and of course a detonator to set off the explosive. It's almost like an RPG only not as powerful of course. These aren't the only rounds either.
The shotgun can be a scatter gun (if you set one up that way) or it can use a rifled barrel and slugs made to be accurate for a few hundred yards. And there are many other choices for loads. I haven't even mentioned non-lethal loads like rubber balls, bean bags, etc..
The shotgun is by far the most versatile gun you can buy. Nothing else is remotely close. That doesn't make it the "best" HD firearm but it is certainly a popular choice and for good reason. I just think that the high capacity AR with rounds that don't over penetrate and don't have the big time recoil of some shotgun rounds is a weapon who's time has come for HD. I feel pretty safe with either choice though to be honest. But if my wife had to defend herself I don't think she could get off more than one round with a 12 ga. unless it was loaded with super light loads and those aren't real effective. With an AR she could hold off a small army of thugs. AR's certainly will do somethings shotguns won't. But in terms of sheer versatility the shotgun has the AR beat hands down.
RandyC
Member
Trying to stay on course here, I doubt the 12 ga. has lost much of its popularity unless maybe to AR's.
Personally, it's lost popularity with me since I stupidly put a pistol grip on a Mossberg 12. and touched off some 00. Darned near tore the web of my thumb off. Ouch!!!! Twenty gauge began to have more appeal.
My concern with an AR for home defense has more to do with penetration: three or four walls, two of which may be in your neighbor's home.
Everyone's situation is unique so I don't judge a person's choice. Just glad you've made the choice to defend your home and family.
Personally, it's lost popularity with me since I stupidly put a pistol grip on a Mossberg 12. and touched off some 00. Darned near tore the web of my thumb off. Ouch!!!! Twenty gauge began to have more appeal.
My concern with an AR for home defense has more to do with penetration: three or four walls, two of which may be in your neighbor's home.
Everyone's situation is unique so I don't judge a person's choice. Just glad you've made the choice to defend your home and family.
At common self defense distances those 9 chances are going to be in a fairly tight ball.
3000 fps brings in other wound mechanisms. In any event both weapons deliver devastating wounds and will likely stop a fight quickly with a good hit.
Breaching and LTL loads are MIA for civilian needs.
Me too. Tell us about how the shotgun penetrates armor. Or which ones have $10 30 round mags. And so on.
Nothing wrong with a shotgun. Carbine is simply more versatile.
Shotguns are all but dead for LE and military use and in rapid decline among private citizens. Asking the question here is like walking into a bar on Saturday night and asking if beer should be outlawed. The poll results are skewed significantly from the real world.
In 2015 a shotguns only advantage is reduced cost, and with AR's selling at all time lows that gap is narrowing.
Quite the opposite is the truth. Buckshot, slugs and all handgun ammo penetrates far more than 223 ammo in building materials. The small high speed projectiles fall apart on impact with walls where heaver, slower projectiles continue.
A 12 or 20 ga shotgun with slugs gives 300 Win mag recoil levels of around 30 ft lbs, an AR around 5 ft lbs of recoil.
In 2015 a shotguns only advantage is reduced cost, and with AR's selling at all time lows that gap is narrowing.
Quite the opposite is the truth. Buckshot, slugs and all handgun ammo penetrates far more than 223 ammo in building materials. The small high speed projectiles fall apart on impact with walls where heaver, slower projectiles continue.
A 12 or 20 ga shotgun with slugs gives 300 Win mag recoil levels of around 30 ft lbs, an AR around 5 ft lbs of recoil.
Most of the stuff you mention is illegal in most places. Clearly not relevant to the conversation.
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