BSA1
member
Hail-Mary comes in the last few seconds of the game. We are barely into the 2nd quarter.
But fear and panic is causing many on THR to throw in the towel.
Hawkins: Donald Trump Could Be Pulling a Gun Control ‘Rope-a-Dope’
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Hail-Mary comes in the last few seconds of the game. We are barely into the 2nd quarter.
But fear and panic is causing many on THR to throw in the towel.
old lady new shooter
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I think we have to stress every chance we get that the Florida tragedy was largely the result of multiple government entities not doing their job enforcing existing laws:
-> The FBI ignored multiple prior warnings about the killer
-> The Sheriff department ignored multiple prior warnings about and experiences with the killer -- they had been repeatedly called out to his home
-> The "PROMISE" program implemented in Broward County schools resulted in the killer not having been charged with crimes which would have rendered him a prohibited person
-> The School Resource Officer, whose sole job was to protect the students, remained outside the building while 17 kids were gunned down.
-> Three other sheriff department officers who showed up also failed to enter the building
-> It appears someone in the sheriff department gave an order to form a perimeter, instead of following the protocol which has been the standard training for the past 15 years that in the case of an active shooter, even if only one officer is present, the officer should go in immediately and stop the shooter
Two other recent mass shootings also involved government failure to properly do its job enforcing current laws:
-> Dylan Roof was able to legally purchase a gun because the information that actually made him a prohibited person was incorrectly written up and so he wasn't found when the NICS check was run
-> The Texas church massacre killer was able to legally purchase guns because the information that would have made him a prohibited person wasn't even sent to the NICS database.
In stating my belief that the current occupant of the white house doesn't have enough intelligence to play a complicated game of "political chess", it's not a matter of fear & panic.
It is, as I said when he was elected, a matter of wait & see.
Rule By Chaos may have a place in the business world, but it's no way to govern a nation.
His comments relating to "Seize now, get the paperwork later" are very concerning in that they create more chaos, and display either an alarming ignorance of due process and constitutional rights, or....an alarming ignorance of due process and constitutional rights.
The checks & balances of the other two branches should, and have so far, stand in the way of any such declarations of policy from the president, but that doesn't mean we should be too complacent and ignore his un-filtered stream-of-consciousness wanderings on the assumption that there's some invisible master plan at work.
I do not believe the man is capable of that.
Without going too far into the political arena (or circus) we're seeing today, as far as gun rights go he hasn't done us much harm yet, but with his constant volatility & uncertainty of direction, there is legitimate cause for concern.
Denis
It is, as I said when he was elected, a matter of wait & see.
Rule By Chaos may have a place in the business world, but it's no way to govern a nation.
His comments relating to "Seize now, get the paperwork later" are very concerning in that they create more chaos, and display either an alarming ignorance of due process and constitutional rights, or....an alarming ignorance of due process and constitutional rights.
The checks & balances of the other two branches should, and have so far, stand in the way of any such declarations of policy from the president, but that doesn't mean we should be too complacent and ignore his un-filtered stream-of-consciousness wanderings on the assumption that there's some invisible master plan at work.
I do not believe the man is capable of that.
Without going too far into the political arena (or circus) we're seeing today, as far as gun rights go he hasn't done us much harm yet, but with his constant volatility & uncertainty of direction, there is legitimate cause for concern.
Denis
DeadFlies
Member
I understand that the electoral college actually picks the president. But losing the popular vote makes winning the electoral that much more difficult.
Yes, a vote in Wyoming is worth more, electorally speaking, than a vote in California and Trump still won. I don’t see this as sustainable, though, and the Dems are gonna cry foul with more and more vigor as it keeps happening.
TTv2
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While that's true, it all goes out the window when it comes to guns because the Republicans know that even if they vote anti gun, pro 2A people will still vote for them over a Democrat, which is so far left that they don't even acknowledge an individuals right to own firearms for self defense, even though SCOTUS has ruled that's what the 2nd Amendment was created for.
Step 2 in Art of the Deal is "Protect the Downside" and making the statement of "seizure, then due process" and age restrictions without due process... all that is blatantly unconstitutional, no court would ever uphold that. If that language is in a bill that becomes law, the whole law will be thrown out.
We know Trump plays both sides because it's his business strategy. Step 3 is "Maximize your options" so he's trying to play the center and, what I think he's going to try to do in the future, is either get some pro-gun stuff into this bill or have it be nothing but anti-gun, watch Congress flail about and not pass it, then after the bill fails and the media declare that no child is safe and the sky is falling, have another bill be introduced that is a compromise bill.
Bump stocks are gonna go, whether they're at the state level or federally. The thing is if both sides can go into an election saying they saved the children and had to also include national reciprocity to do that, hey at least they saved children. Swamp Creatures get re-elected and the Swamp Creatures love getting re-elected.
What Trump's already done in signaling anti-gun stuff is he's doing Step 4 "Use your leverage."
Trump is president, he ran on a pro-gun platform. By all means, he could be the most pro gun president since Calvin Coolidge, but he's signaling gun control because the NRA is so close to him and we know that gun industry is struggling for sales right now, Trump saying such things is increasing prices. That's by design and I wouldn't doubt it if the NRA told Trump to say stuff to Republicans about being afraid of the NRA and denial of due process to induce some panic buying.
Trump's is a business man, if all it takes is a few sentences to generate some profits for a struggling industry that supports him, he'll gladly do it because in 2020 he'll get some nice campaign contributions.
All politics is Rope-a-Dope and I don't know what the future will bring, but the simple answer is that if Trump is genuine in what he said this week in that live meeting, we're all in big trouble because we have a President who would throw the entire populace into internment camps to "keep us safe."
Hokie_PhD
Member
TTv2 I’ve said over and over we need to wait and see.
We should be CONCERNED but not panicking yet.
Everything you say makes sense. But politics don’t often make sense. People do stupid illogical things and mobs multiply that.
I agree bump stops are gone. I also see the age to but a gun raised to 21. Personally I don’t have an issue with that if we pick one age that one is an adult. So raise the voting age, and anything else that considers one an adult. The left won’t go along with that though as on one hand they 16 year olds aren’t mature enough to drive, 18 year old aren’t to own a gun, but they want 16 year old to vote (already done in Maryland) because younger people tend to be more liberal.
We should be CONCERNED but not panicking yet.
Everything you say makes sense. But politics don’t often make sense. People do stupid illogical things and mobs multiply that.
I agree bump stops are gone. I also see the age to but a gun raised to 21. Personally I don’t have an issue with that if we pick one age that one is an adult. So raise the voting age, and anything else that considers one an adult. The left won’t go along with that though as on one hand they 16 year olds aren’t mature enough to drive, 18 year old aren’t to own a gun, but they want 16 year old to vote (already done in Maryland) because younger people tend to be more liberal.
Ignition Override
Member
SharpDog: Does "Assault Weapons Ban" mean the entire gun (which could 'grandfather' millions already in the US),
...or just some scary, superficial features, which was the case in the 90s?
The phrase AW Ban means nothing until such politicians clarify exactly what they mean, if they are forced to be clear.
Some college students stated that "AR means Assault Rifle" to an instructor in a Criminal Justice class.
He also instructs at the Police Academy, and was at the shooting club, allowing me to try his DAO Sig P229.
When he heard that AR comment, he told the students "You're wrong", then he enlightened the young "minds", so to speak.
...or just some scary, superficial features, which was the case in the 90s?
The phrase AW Ban means nothing until such politicians clarify exactly what they mean, if they are forced to be clear.
Some college students stated that "AR means Assault Rifle" to an instructor in a Criminal Justice class.
He also instructs at the Police Academy, and was at the shooting club, allowing me to try his DAO Sig P229.
When he heard that AR comment, he told the students "You're wrong", then he enlightened the young "minds", so to speak.
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WestTexShooter
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The President has already had another meeting with the NRA. After the televised dog & pony show.
Appears G.O.P. HQ has been bombarded with “comments” that led to second meeting.
Appears G.O.P. HQ has been bombarded with “comments” that led to second meeting.
Oh! Maybe its-a this! Maybe it-a that!
Maybe it should be believed, and acted upon. I maintain my 1st view of the artikle.
And also, just what praytell would be happening if CONCERNED CITIZENS did not contact their Reps & Senators? Would those same fence sitters follow Mitch down a path many could not / would not follow?
It goes like this 1- event happens 2-(D)s write a weird ban bill 3- INSERT HERE no one calls writes...complains,therefore... 4- ...Repubs cave in like, .003 seconds 5- bill gains legitimacy
6- enjoy your slingshot bow & arrow...for
awhile
Maybe it should be believed, and acted upon. I maintain my 1st view of the artikle.
And also, just what praytell would be happening if CONCERNED CITIZENS did not contact their Reps & Senators? Would those same fence sitters follow Mitch down a path many could not / would not follow?
It goes like this 1- event happens 2-(D)s write a weird ban bill 3- INSERT HERE no one calls writes...complains,therefore... 4- ...Repubs cave in like, .003 seconds 5- bill gains legitimacy
6- enjoy your slingshot bow & arrow...for
awhile
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MachIVshooter
Member
That's debatable. Would it still be the case without "votes" from deceased, illegal and non-existant voters?
But I digress....
Trump is not in an easy position on this one. Our view of gun owners cultivated amongst ourselves here at THR and on other gun boards is not very representative of the majority of the other 100+ million gun owners in this country. While we overwhelmingly believe that 2A is "shall not be infringed", period, end of story, we are a minority. Your average deer hunter, or homeowner who has a pistol or shotgun for home defense, tends to be somewhere between ambivalent and supportive of things like universal background checks and restrictions/bans on bump stocks. It's not just the Democrats who favor "doing something" to prevent these tragedies, and it's difficult to explain even to many somewhat like-minded folks that, heart wrenching as they may be, these "mass shootings" are statistically insignificant, don't affect our violent crime rates until you move 3 places to the right of the decimal point. They don't hear that when they're watching the survivors and families of victims crying their eyes out on national media.
Things will calm down like they always do. People are definitely more fired up this time for some reason, but it will attenuate, and when it does, I believe Trump will go back to his usual feather ruffling and shenanigans while bill after bill on gun control dies in committee.
What we need to do in the mean time is focus our efforts not just on preservation of 2A as always, but on getting people to assign the blame where it really belongs on this particular tragedy. We beat the drum that laws define crime but do nothing to prevent crime, and that punishment isn't much of a deterrent if it's not enforced. We keep bringing to light the massive failure of local authorities and the feds to act on any one of the many occasions they had presented to them to get this lunatic off the streets or at least disarm him using any combination of the myriad existing provisions in our statutes. This was the most preventable mass shooting to date, the authorities totally dropped the ball, and somehow the Democrats and their lapdogs have made it a gun control platform. We have to counter that. The facts are on our side, but the media isn't, so it's a grass roots ground game if we are to come out of it (mostly) unscathed.
Due process gets people killed though too. There's definitely a discussion to be had.
"Don't judge a book by it's cover" allows very bad people to do very bad things all the time.
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1KPerDay
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hewwww boyyyyyy......
TTv2
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I never said I was panicking, unless what Donald Trump said is 100% genuine in which case the entire nation needs to be concerned that they have a president who wants to take away people's rights and then have due process. Everything else is politics and frankly, I think, a stall tactic because just today we found out that the school shooter wasn't using "hi capacity" mags, he was using 10 rounders because they fit into his duffle bag and last week we found out the Sheriff's department was waiting outside the school and the city police were the ones that went in.
Allowing time to pass from these shootings so the facts can be found and reported is what keeps rash and transient thoughts from becoming laws that kill rights. Trump is doing an admirable job of that.
As to what you are saying with age limits and such, I think the age for everything needs to go up because teens today and even people in their 20s are not more mature than they were 30+ years ago. I'm speaking as a person in his late 20's so don't confuse me for an old man railing about kids because I still view myself as a young adult, just a responsible one.
The facts are that teens are not responsible by in large. They shouldn't be allowed to drive until they're 18, they shouldn't be able to vote until they're at least 20 (exemption for military service), they shouldn't be hit with income tax until they're at least 20 because people their age don't make crap for money (and when they do reach the age where they have to pay income taxes, they'll see how awful the 16th Amendment and taxes are), and I can understand the reasoning behind prohibiting them from owning a semi-automatic rifle that's not a .22 rimfire.
However, in that vain, I don't see why there's an age limit on handguns until they're 21 because I believe young women under 21 are especially liable to being sexually assaulted and all people deserve the right to protect themselves wherever they go. So, I'd like to see the laws changed to 18 for handguns, .22 semi auto rifles, and bolt/lever/pump/break action rifles/shotguns and 21 for semi auto rifles. I think that's common sense gun reform if you ask me.
Some posts have been deleted.
Keep it civil and on topic please.
Keep it civil and on topic please.
BSA1
member
Very good point but it is lost on a bunch of emotional high school teenagers.
It is illegal under Federal Law to buy a handgun. It is not illegal to own or possess one.
Archie
Member
There are many people who do like or approve of President Trump.
Who else to support? No Democrat can be trusted not to outlaw or complicate the sales of firearms past understanding. Few "party-loyal" Republicans are willing to stand up for much anything. They are too afraid of being voted out of their cozy positions they tend to fold. And I'm not talking about Senators McCain and Flake, either.
President Trump - despite what is bandied about in partial quotes - is the most trustworthy President we've had in decades. I know not what path others may take, I'm going to ride it out.
Who else to support? No Democrat can be trusted not to outlaw or complicate the sales of firearms past understanding. Few "party-loyal" Republicans are willing to stand up for much anything. They are too afraid of being voted out of their cozy positions they tend to fold. And I'm not talking about Senators McCain and Flake, either.
President Trump - despite what is bandied about in partial quotes - is the most trustworthy President we've had in decades. I know not what path others may take, I'm going to ride it out.
Theohazard
Member
The man lies an extraordinary amount. The sheer number of statements he makes that are misleading, partially true, or flat-out-lies is very, very alarming. So I honestly don’t know what to think about what he says at any given moment, and I don’t think he does either. I think he’s just winging this. And he’s doing it badly at the moment.
Suffice to say, I don’t trust that he has even a remote understanding of the details of the gun issue, and I also don’t trust that he’ll stick by his pledge to uphold the Second Amendment the way we want him to.
Jenrick
Member
Anyone in government who has is willing to utter something along the lines of what Trump said about due process has no place in government. Add in his statements about China's new "President for Life" being something "maybe we should try here sometime," and we are approaching a very dangerous point.
If the current President had a (D) next to their name instead of an (R), very few on this forum would be willing to say it was "tactic," "strategy," or "speaking off the cuff." Rather I think there'd be some VERY concerned discussions about maybe we are about to enter a period where the 2nd amendment serves what many of us feel it exists to do, prevent us from facing a tyrannical government bent on depriving us of our rights and liberties. He should not get a free pass because he allegedly is (R) and allegedly is pro-gun. We would NEVER give another person in the political system the benefit of the doubt, if they said due process to take our arms was unnecessary.
Even if the statements above are in fact wily attempts at misdirection, they go against core concepts of American culture and government and are not acceptable. If they are uttered today with no consequence (particularly from those who should be yelling the loudest) they will begin to become the new normal as they are repeated over and over again. Maybe not today or tomorrow, and it make take a couple of decades, but there will be a continual thread of due process being non-important and non-central the American legal system. The idea of electoral terms getting longer and longer, and term limits going away will be tossed around. This leads to a very dark place. I for one have no desire to go there, and no tolerance for those who are willing to take American ideals central to our legal system, government, and culture and throw them into the dust for political purposes. We have castigated, rallied, protested, and vilified those who have said far less from a position of far less power, yet we are willing to give a pass now?
-Jenrick
If the current President had a (D) next to their name instead of an (R), very few on this forum would be willing to say it was "tactic," "strategy," or "speaking off the cuff." Rather I think there'd be some VERY concerned discussions about maybe we are about to enter a period where the 2nd amendment serves what many of us feel it exists to do, prevent us from facing a tyrannical government bent on depriving us of our rights and liberties. He should not get a free pass because he allegedly is (R) and allegedly is pro-gun. We would NEVER give another person in the political system the benefit of the doubt, if they said due process to take our arms was unnecessary.
Even if the statements above are in fact wily attempts at misdirection, they go against core concepts of American culture and government and are not acceptable. If they are uttered today with no consequence (particularly from those who should be yelling the loudest) they will begin to become the new normal as they are repeated over and over again. Maybe not today or tomorrow, and it make take a couple of decades, but there will be a continual thread of due process being non-important and non-central the American legal system. The idea of electoral terms getting longer and longer, and term limits going away will be tossed around. This leads to a very dark place. I for one have no desire to go there, and no tolerance for those who are willing to take American ideals central to our legal system, government, and culture and throw them into the dust for political purposes. We have castigated, rallied, protested, and vilified those who have said far less from a position of far less power, yet we are willing to give a pass now?
-Jenrick
CoalTrain49
Member
That's because people refuse to accept the idea of a 3rd or independent party. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. A good example is if enough people believe the AR will soon be regulated out of existence it probably will be. I see a lot of that thinking here on this forum because of the media.
The fact is the media drives the elections, not campaign money. If they put a 3rd party into play (like they did Trump, he really isn't a republican) it's a whole new ballgame in 2020.
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barnbwt
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Though I dislike the NRA at the moment for thinking bumpstocks (ie semi-autos) should be banned, I do like that they literally-or-metaphorically pounded Trump's head against the Resolute Desk enough times during that last meeting to convince him to back off the incredibly damaging gun control kick he was on. They deserve money.
Terry Crews as POTUS is when you know it's over
Terry Crews as POTUS is when you know it's over
barnbwt
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Oh, the rope-a-dope worked beautifully, all right.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/vide...420060cb7bd_video.html?utm_term=.3e3f31187fcd
So many on our side hedged and denied and spun elaborate explanations, until it was too late to hold anyone's feet to the fire. Now the pro-gun set has lost yet another major poulation center.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/vide...420060cb7bd_video.html?utm_term=.3e3f31187fcd
So many on our side hedged and denied and spun elaborate explanations, until it was too late to hold anyone's feet to the fire. Now the pro-gun set has lost yet another major poulation center.
Well, this helps. I think the NRA had a large percentage of new members also.
http://www.breitbart.com/2nd-amendm...nt-foundation-sees-1200-percent-member-surge/
http://www.breitbart.com/2nd-amendm...nt-foundation-sees-1200-percent-member-surge/
george burns
Member
https://gunowners.org/
Please click on as many of these issues as you have time for, everything is done for you , just fill in your name and address and send as many as youcan, the politicians are adding all kinds of crap to strip us of our 2nd amendment rights, We stopped them before and we can do it again. I have hit Twitter also heavy the past few days, letting them know that we aren't laying down over this nonsense, If the see the numbers, they will react.
remind Rep. Bill Posey (R) that a vote for Fix NICS (as part of the omnibus) is a vote to kill concealed carry reciprocity. The pre-written emails contain separate messages for Republicans and Democrats.
Please click on as many of these issues as you have time for, everything is done for you , just fill in your name and address and send as many as youcan, the politicians are adding all kinds of crap to strip us of our 2nd amendment rights, We stopped them before and we can do it again. I have hit Twitter also heavy the past few days, letting them know that we aren't laying down over this nonsense, If the see the numbers, they will react.
remind Rep. Bill Posey (R) that a vote for Fix NICS (as part of the omnibus) is a vote to kill concealed carry reciprocity. The pre-written emails contain separate messages for Republicans and Democrats.
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