Headspace issue

[7.57riffle]

I have an 1893 Spanish mauser with matching action housing and barrel. I got home from work and decided to chamber a round with the firing pin REMOVED to see if the new case extractor that I just ordered would pull the bullet out. Basically I'm dying to fire it but with the virus going around I can't go anywhere except home and work. What I found was the ammo I bought the bullet wont fit into the headspace area. I haven't pushed hard just extremely light push with the finger and it doesn't seem like it wants to go in. I attached the picture of the ammo I have is this the right ammunition? I pretty sure it is just would like y'alls professional opinion. Also i bought a bore snake and cleaned up the barrel want do you use to clean the headspace area?

 

[7.57riffle]

I just order some dummy rounds should be here in a few days. This way I can push a little harder and be safe. I have another question. Isn't there supposed to be some sort of ramp that helps feed the ammunition into the chamber? Would any of you happen to have a picture of a bolt action rifle with it showing the chamber area?

 

[mjsdwash]

easily possible your contacting the lead with that long full diameter bullet shank. I would try a different brand of ammo before screwing with it. Extractor may be too big too if its new. Old parts need fitting sometimes.

Lots of rifles have no feed ramp. The magazine guides them and the bottlenecking keeps everything lined up.

 

[mjsdwash]

can you get a picture of the bullet itself? I could be wrong but that looks like about 5/16" of bullet stick out before the tangent. I have never seen that on anything that old. Whats the overall length of the loaded round, and does it fit in the magazine?

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Are you sure its not a 6.5 Swedish Mauser?

7mm Barrels typically have an extremely long lead, so that bullet shouldnt be hitting the rifling if its the original barrel.

Can we get a few pics of the rifle and barrel? Might help, thanks!

 

[DocRock]

Do I understand that you placed a cartridge on the magazine follower and tried to close the bolt on the round and the bolt wouldn't close all the way?

Try it again with two cartridges pressed down into the magazine fully. The Mauser is a controlled feed action, meaning it needs the extractor to slip on and hold the rim of the cartridge from the magazine. If you are just laying the cartridge on the magazine folower and trying to close the bolt on it, especially with a new extractor, it won't work, and forcing it could break your new extractor.

First, does the bolt close easily on an empty chamber? If not, as is suggested above, the extractor may need some fitting.

Second, when you removed the firing pin, did everything else go back together correctly?

Third, remove the bolt. Push a round into the chamber with your finger. Does it seat flush in the chamber without strong resistance, and does it slide back out easily?

If yes, to all three steps, place two cartridges down into the magazine and then close the bolt. If the bolt does not want to pick up a cartridge from the magazine or will not fully close, the extractor likely needs some fitting, though it looks fine from pics.

Let us know how it goes and good luck!

 

[7.57riffle]

can you get a picture of the bullet itself? I could be wrong but that looks like about 5/16" of bullet stick out before the tangent. I have never seen that on anything that old. Whats the overall length of the loaded round, and does it fit in the magazine?

The bullet is 3 inches long and 5/16 in diameter possibly a hair passed 5/16

 

[7.57riffle]

Are you sure its not a 6.5 Swedish Mauser?

7mm Barrels typically have an extremely long lead, so that bullet shouldnt be hitting the rifling if its the original barrel.

Can we get a few pics of the rifle and barrel? Might help, thanks!

I

easily possible your contacting the lead with that long full diameter bullet shank. I would try a different brand of ammo before screwing with it. Extractor may be too big too if its new. Old parts need fitting sometimes.

Lots of rifles have no feed ramp. The magazine guides them and the bottlenecking keeps everything lined up.

I think when I get off work in a day I will separate the barrel from the action to get in and clean it up the headspace area. Thanks

 

[7.57riffle]

Do I understand that you placed a cartridge on the magazine follower and tried to close the bolt on the round and the bolt wouldn't close all the way?

Try it again with two cartridges pressed down into the magazine fully. The Mauser is a controlled feed action, meaning it needs the extractor to slip on and hold the rim of the cartridge from the magazine. If you are just laying the cartridge on the magazine folower and trying to close the bolt on it, especially with a new extractor, it won't work, and forcing it could break your new extractor.

First, does the bolt close easily on an empty chamber? If not, as is suggested above, the extractor may need some fitting.

Second, when you removed the firing pin, did everything else go back together correctly?

Third, remove the bolt. Push a round into the chamber with your finger. Does it seat flush in the chamber without strong resistance, and does it slide back out easily?

If yes, to all three steps, place two cartridges down into the magazine and then close the bolt. If the bolt does not want to pick up a cartridge from the magazine or will not fully close, the extractor likely needs some fitting, though it looks fine from pics.

Let us know how it goes and good luck!

Yea I should explained it better the bolt is very smooth and will move freely to cocking the gun and pulling the bolt back. The pictures I should of the bullet attached to the bolt was to show that the bolt looks to fit correctly with the round. What i did was simply remove the bolt and tried to simply push a round in the chamber but where the case of the bullet gets wider it just dosen't want to slide into the headspace/chamber. Because of that I didn't try using the bolt to push one in because I figured it would get stuck. After reading your comment I think I will try and load the magazine and use the bolt to load. I just will have to wait for my dummy rounds to come in the mail. I'm too afraid it will get stuck with a live round.

 

[7.57riffle]

can you get a picture of the bullet itself? I could be wrong but that looks like about 5/16" of bullet stick out before the tangent. I have never seen that on anything that old. Whats the overall length of the loaded round, and does it fit in the magazine?

The pictures above are actually of the ammunition in question. I can get a better picture with a tape measure along side of it tomorrow after work.

Thanks

 

[7.57riffle]

Are you sure its not a 6.5 Swedish Mauser?

7mm Barrels typically have an extremely long lead, so that bullet shouldnt be hitting the rifling if its the original barrel.

Can we get a few pics of the rifle and barrel? Might help, thanks!

 

[7.57riffle]

When I get off of work tomorrow I will try and get better pics of the headspace/chamber area. My phone is too large to really get in there. I will try my wifes or sons phone. I think it might need to be cleaned. I noticed the bore snake cleans the barrel but not the headspace area. Im thinking if I can find something to get any debris out of there the bullet might fit.

 

[sparkyv]

After reading your comment I think I will try and load the magazine and use the bolt to load. I just will have to wait for my dummy rounds to come in the mail

 

[7.57riffle]

I got somewhat better pictures of the headspace from using my wifes phone. It still hard to get a good view I think I'm going to ordering tools to remove barrel from the action block.

 

[7.57riffle]

View attachment 903939

You forgot the nachos...lol

 

[boom boom]

Few things, yours is a 1893 that has been well used and my guess is that the extractor is loose enough to allow your bullet to drop down before entering the chamber. Mauser barrels are flat faced for a reason but it depends on adequate controlled feed from the magazine to feed properly. Don't try to tighten the extractor itself by bending it or some such as the material is brittle and you might very well break an expensive extractor. You can tighten the bolt's extractor ring if the extractor is flopping around but that won't necessarily substituted. Before doing more with live rounds, wait for the snap caps and mark the front pseudo bullet area with a magic marker.

Due the age of the rifle, you may also have a bad magazine spring, a burr on your follower, etc. I would though take an old toothbrush, soak it in something like penetrating oil to get the rust out of the receiver lug area. I prefer Kroil but in this day and age, any light machine oil will work to get under the rust and allow you to remove it. If you have an old AR chamber brush that is used to clean the locking lugs and chamber, it will then do fine with your favorite bore solvent to remove the softened krud. Make sure to rinse the chamber brush afterwards as rust particles are abrasive.

 

[7.57riffle]

Few things, yours is a 1893 that has been well used and my guess is that the extractor is loose enough to allow your bullet to drop down before entering the chamber. Mauser barrels are flat faced for a reason but it depends on adequate controlled feed from the magazine to feed properly. Don't try to tighten the extractor itself by bending it or some such as the material is brittle and you might very well break an expensive extractor. You can tighten the bolt's extractor ring if the extractor is flopping around but that won't necessarily substituted. Before doing more with live rounds, wait for the snap caps and mark the front pseudo bullet area with a magic marker.

Due the age of the rifle, you may also have a bad magazine spring, a burr on your follower, etc. I would though take an old toothbrush, soak it in something like penetrating oil to get the rust out of the receiver lug area. I prefer Kroil but in this day and age, any light machine oil will work to get under the rust and allow you to remove it. If you have an old AR chamber brush that is used to clean the locking lugs and chamber, it will then do fine with your favorite bore solvent to remove the softened krud. Make sure to rinse the chamber brush afterwards as rust particles are abrasive.

The extractor was missing on the rifle when I got it. I ended up ordering one used off line and a used firing pin. What does flat face barrel mean? Are you referring to the flat part on the bottom side of the bolt? I did some research on that and found that the manufacturer thought it improved accuracy but did away with it after the Spanish mauser? Im learning so please bare with me. Besides the bolt and extractor all together shouldn't I be able to push a round in the chamber without using the bolt? I would think it would slide right into the chamber? After taking pictures it looks i need to clean the chamber before the headspace and the headspace chamber itself.

Thanks Boom Boom..!

 

[7.57riffle]

After speaking with a colleague of mine it appears that I need to order a chamber brush? Are they other calibers that would use the same size chamber brush? The reason I ask because if another popular caliber using the same size chamber brush I might be able to pick one up at the local gun store. If not I will have to order one and wait.

 

[boom boom]

The extractor was missing on the rifle when I got it. I ended up ordering one used off line and a used firing pin. What does flat face barrel mean? Are you referring to the flat part on the bottom side of the bolt? I did some research on that and found that the manufacturer thought it improved accuracy but did away with it after the Spanish mauser? Im learning so please bare with me. Besides the bolt and extractor all together shouldn't I be able to push a round in the chamber without using the bolt? I would think it would slide right into the chamber? After taking pictures it looks i need to clean the chamber before the headspace and the headspace chamber itself.

Thanks Boom Boom..!

7.57riffle,
Is this your first rifle?

If you look at a Mauser barrel taken out of the receiver, the barrel face at the breech end (toward the back of the barrel with the chamber) is flat. For feeding issues, that is why the U.S. military in its 1903 and 1917 rifles used coned breech ends to supposedly help with feeding. The flat face is fine for feeding as long as the extractor tension on the rim of the bullet is fine, as long as the mag spring is ok, etc. basically, it is a controlled feed rifle but the components of that controlled feed have to be up to snuff to reliably feed. This is from a 96 Mauser but yours is basically the same barrel design. It shows a proper headspace gage in the chamber.



Think of the extractor having to pinch the rim and having the right tension to hold it at a straight line throughout picking it up from the magazine through depositing it in the chamber and then removing the empty cartridge after firing. This is an animated view of the Mauser firing, it is a 98 action but as far as basic mechanical principles, it is simply a 93 action gussied up.

Do scrub the chamber and determine whether your chamber is pitted. That can make extraction difficult and brass life short. You will also need to have the headspace checked with a proper 7x57 gauge. Some of these though have been rebarrelled into 7.62 NATO so make sure that is not so with your rifle. It should be marked on the barrel but sometimes Bubba gets a little careless.

What you are referring to as the headspace chamber is technically the receiver lug recess area where the bolt lugs lock into the lug recesses of the receiver. To determine headspace, you need a proper gage and it is usually cheaper to have a gunsmith do it but these are troubled times. You can do it yourself but you must strip the bolt otherwise you can damage the gage. You attempt to close the bolt without the extractor, bolt spring, firing pin, safety, and gently try to close the bolt on the headspace gage with finger pressure only. Ideally, you use a no-go gage, some will use a field gage and any bolt that closes on a field gage is regarded as unsafe to fire. The risk is that the case head separates from the rest of the cartridge and dumps high pressure extremely hot gas into the chamber, back out the firing pin hole in the bolt, and hopefully through the gas release hole in the receiver. In a worst case scenario, it can blow up the gun.
There are videos around of how to check headspace with a proper gage (ignore the bubba techniques with tape, live cartridges, and other such suboptimal ways).

 

[Slamfire]

Few things, yours is a 1893 that has been well used and my guess is that the extractor is loose enough to allow your bullet to drop down before entering the chamber.

Notice his extractor is square on the bottom. He could be putting the round in front of the extractor and finding out that the thing won't snap over the rim!

 

[DocRock]

Just a request, please. "Headspace area" grates like "Clip" for magazine. The area to which you are referring is the chamber.

Good pics. It needs some love. What have you got for barrel cleaning solvents? A good foam cleaner left in there for a while would be ideal. Not sure where you are at the moment and your ability to purchase supplies. A 45 cal brush, some bronze wool, and a 44cal jag would be very helpful. If none available, a wooden dowel turned down to .425 " will do the needful, but the bronze wool - or copper Choreboy scouring pads from the supermarket is pretty important. I like JB Compound for these jobs but not sure of availability to you.

Whatever cleaning solvent you have or can get wants to spend some time soaking the chamber (and you will want to do some more barrel cleaning I bet because a bore snake is pretty unlikely to have done much cleaning to the barrel based on what the chamber looks like). Give it a couple of hours soak. Then, liberally apply elbow grease. Alternate between bronze brush, bronze/copper wool, and cleaning jag. Keep at it until the cleaning patches are showing clean or until you run out ;-) Same for the barrel.

That should solve your chamber problem. Then, we can see how it shoots Good luck!

 

[boom boom]

After speaking with a colleague of mine it appears that I need to order a chamber brush? Are they other calibers that would use the same size chamber brush? The reason I ask because if another popular caliber using the same size chamber brush I might be able to pick one up at the local gun store. If not I will have to order one and wait.

You can do it with a tooth brush or some other nylon brush small enough to get into the area. as the lug recesses on a Mauser are different than that of an semi auto.

I forgot to post the video animation of a Mauser firing, here it is.

 

[boom boom]

Notice his extractor is square on the bottom. He could be putting the round in front of the extractor and finding out that the thing won't snap over the rim!

I missed that Slamfire, getting too many senior moments lately. I assumed he was using the magazine.

 

[Robbins290]

That is what i am guessing Slamfire. I did the same thing when i was 18 and bought a mauser for hunting. I learned about control feed bolt actions.

 

[boom boom]

Original poster @7.57riffle , you indicated that you had to buy an extractor and a firing pin for this rifle. Did you have to buy other parts for it? In other words, was this rifle a parts rifle or do you know the past history of the rifle? Your rifle receiver also appears chromed or heavily polished. Before you fire this, I would seriously recommend having a gunsmith check it out before firing any live rounds. It's okay if you don't know all these things right now, but safety is always paramount and these old rifles were rode hard and put up wet so to speak.

An example of the issues involved,

For example your firing pin might be too long or too short (too long can pierce primers), too short will not fire the cartridge reliably--this is called firing pin protuberance which should be a in certain range for operation. The safety can be an issue if the rifle can firing by depressing the trigger on safe and then the firing pin goes forward on the cartridge when the safety is let off. If the safety will not engage, then that is an issue needing to be fixed. Sears and trigger surfaces could be altered in a bad way. The headspace can be problematic as the bores on some of these old Spanish Mausers are well worn or even dangerously rusted, etc. I simply do not know your level of firearms knowledge of basic Mauser operation or safety issues involved so it is possible you know all these things but I'd rather warn you than you take a chance firing a possible dubious rifle.

Jerry Kuhnhausen's Shop Manual on Mausers is pretty much a show and tell of each part, its function, and how to assess them for safety. If you can't get to a gunsmith, at least read this manual and follow its checklist before firing the rifle. Remember, your copayments at the hospital for an accident can be far greater than what you paid for the rifle.