Heinlein and Librarians

[MoscowMike]

I've seen a fair number of Heinlein references on the gun boards, so when I ran into this information in "Grumbles From the Grave", Virginia Heinlein's compilation of letters RAH wrote and received, I thought others might be interested.

When RAH was writing his juveniles for Scribners, he had a problem. In "Red Planet", as originally written, guns were just part of the furniture.

His editor at Scribner's, Alice Dalgliesh, wouldn't accept it. She said that the library association would not like the book that way and as one of their major markets, she couldn't publish it. There were several other issues, but the gun issue was a big one. To get the book published he had to re-write several scenes.

Here's a brief quote from a letter he wrote to Alice Dalgliesh about Red Planet on 19 April 1949.

"I have one of my characters say that the right to bear arms is the basis of all human freedom. I strongly believe that, but you required me to blue-pencil it. The second point concerns licensing guns. I had such licensing in the story but I had one character strongly object to it as a piece of buttinsky bureaucracy, subversive of liberty - and I had no one defending it. You required me to remove the protest ..."

GFTG 1989 Chapter III p 55

He goes on in great detail to discuss how silly her viewpoint is. If you are a Heinlein fan, the book is worth a read.

A point I found interesting was the date. If the library association and major juvenile publishers in 1949 were insisting on censoring RAH on gun rights, it's not too surprising that we have had lots of problems since then.

Laws are a reflection of how society perceives rights and responsibilities. If we want to preserve the rights of free men, we are in for a long haul to make sure that our children maintain those rights.

Public perception of guns and public participation in shooting sports are critical. Some friends of mine are librarians, one enjoyed shooting an AK with us last summer, another just got her NRA Life Member belt buckle repaired, and the husband of the third is an adviser to the local Pink Pistols group. However, I think Idaho is a bit saner than the rest of the country.

Does your local library have any gun rags on the shelves? How about kids books that portray hunting and shooting as fun and sensible? We need to think fifty years ahead if we want our grandchildren to have a country we can be proud of.

 

[Owen Sparks]

He was a fore runner of the modern libertarian movement. Watch Starship Troopers some time.

 

[Nanook]

Better yet, read Starship Troopers sometime. The movie is shall we say, not true to the book.

There are times when it reminds you of the book, but it's not really close.

 

[zoom6zoom]

Correct, read the book. Other than the title and the names of some of the characters, there's little in common. The book of course goes so much deeper than a two hour movie ever could. I've worn out at least three copies.

I wouldn't dislike the movie so much if they'd just called it "Bug Wars" or something.

 

[Justin]

He was a fore runner of the modern libertarian movement. Watch Starship Troopers some time.

I'm not really a fan of the views espoused in the novella he wrote, as it really is a book that espouses a sort of benevloent quasi-fascism. I'm not as enthusiastic about the ideals in the book as some, but it does make for an interesting thought experiment that also happens to be built into a fun action adventure story.

Paul Verhoeven, on the other hand, had zero respect for the underlying philosophies of Heinlein, and made the movie to directly satirize them along with rightish politics in general.

Verhoeven is an overrated hack director who should never have been allowed within ten feet of anything Heinlein has written. He's built a career out of mocking American film audiences for the better part of two decades, and I'm continually surprised that his films are lauded by the very same people he is so clearly deriding.


Sent from my Android smart phone using Tapatalk.

 

[dmancornell]

The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress (http://www.amazon.com/Moon-Harsh-Mistress-Robert-Heinlein/dp/0312863551) is Heinlein's greatest libertarian exposition. The right to bear arms as means to overthrow tyranny is brilliantly extrapolated at the end of the book. Every gun owner should read this book.

 

[lan40583]

I'm a public librarian in the DFW metroplex, and we have several books on gunsmithing, histories of gun manufacturers like Reminton and one about the invention of the derringer pistol that I've enjoyed reading, as well as a few gun blue books. I dunno about kids books off the top of my head, though.

 

[Jolly Rogers]

I'm a public librarian in the DFW metroplex, and we have several books on gunsmithing, histories of gun manufacturers like Reminton and one about the invention of the derringer pistol that I've enjoyed reading, as well as a few gun blue books. I dunno about kids books off the top of my head, though.

It is way WAY different in northern Virginia. Some books on military weapons and that's about it unless you go to a regional depot. There is only one title listed on gunsmithing I have found and there are only like 3 copies in the system.:banghead:
Joe

 

[mmitch]

Stephen Hunter novels are readily available in the Nashville Public Libraries.

Mike

 

[Library Guy]

Librarians are the most ardent opponents of censorship out there. It's not clear to what 'library association' the Scribner editor is referring.

Right now I'm reading CJ Chivers' The Gun... from my local library.

 

[bigfatdave]

I'm not really a fan of the views espoused in the novella he wrote, as it really is a book that espouses a sort of benevloent quasi-fascism.

You're missing a large portion of the point. The societies Heinlein depicted weren't being sold as his utopia, they were just extrapolations of "what if?" thought experiments.

He had a term for people who assumed a fictional character's views or dialog represented the views of the author ... his phrasing on that subject was brief and simple.

 

[Nushif]

The societies Heinlein depicted weren't being sold as his utopia, they were just extrapolations of "what if?" thought experiments.

This. It is truly the mark of an educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Heinlein was a master at this.

 

[theotherwaldo]

I'm a public librarian in deep south Texas. About a third of my co-workers are hunters, shooters, or both. I don't think that Heinlein's problem was with public librarians. Rather, I suspect that it was with school librarians. We public librarians might move a book that had too much objectionable action (by parent standards) to the adult shelves, but we'd never ban it outright. We feel that a variety of opinions is appropriate.

In my experience, school librarians are a bit choosy about the opinions that are acceptable on their shelves... .

 

[hso]

Watch Starship Troopers some time.

:banghead: Dear God, what have we sunk to?

Better yet, read Starship Troopers sometime.

Wait, there's hope.

Libertarian philosophy predated cinema, much less that wretched POS.

 

[Careful]

That may once have been the case long ago, but I've borrowed The Turn Diaries from the Library, so I'm sure they'd have no problem with Heinlein.

 

[Murphy4570]

Hey hey hey now, I consider Starship Troopers to be an excellent B movie. Lots of cheesy stuff, guns, bugs, explosions, etc etc ad nauseum. Only thing that would have improved it would have been the casting of the king of B movies himself: Bruce Campbell. Well, maybe not.

The book is much different from the movie, as has been noted, and is an excellent read.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Yeah, and in Starship troopers, the main characters dad did an outstanding job of providing a counter point in the 'why should I participate?' part of the argument, and personally I would see the society as one where he was looking at the question of what would happen in a society where those who participated excluded those who chose not to.

Any who, I imagine that the 'kiddie' press wouldn't have liked 'The Man From Mars' in A Stranger in a Strange Land much either.

 

[Justin]

You're missing a large portion of the point. The societies Heinlein depicted weren't being sold as his utopia, they were just extrapolations of "what if?" thought experiments.

While I'm not a superfan, I know enough about Heinlein to realize this. Unfortunately, a lot of people who read Starship Troopers do not.

He had a term for people who assumed a fictional character's views or dialog represented the views of the author ... his phrasing on that subject was brief and simple.

Off to Google. No doubt this will make me chuckle.

 

[MoscowMike]

The books Heinlein was writing for Scribners were specifically for the juvenile market, so he did a fair bit of self-censorship to avoid problems with sexual content, etc. (Although it's fascinating to read the correspondence about the problems they had with the sex lives of the flat cats from 'The Rolling Stones').

It would be interesting to know what sort of censorship if any there is today in the juvenile market. Are authors being discouraged from portraying guns and hunting as normal? Are young readers being given good role models in those areas?

Seems to me that there was a thread about positive gun books for young readers. If we can put together a list, it would be interesting to check with our local libraries and find out if those are on the shelf.

We need to take the long view and make sure kids have access to that sort of information as they grow up. Of course if books are obsolete, we need to find people who can help in other areas.

 

[JTHunter]

Justin said:

Paul Verhoeven, on the other hand, had zero respect for the underlying philosophies of Heinlein, and made the movie to directly satirize them along with rightish politics in general.
Verhoeven is an overrated hack director who should never have been allowed within ten feet of anything Heinlein has written. He's built a career out of mocking American film audiences for the better part of two decades, and I'm continually surprised that his films are lauded by the very same people he is so clearly deriding.

Would this put him on a level with "Fatso" Moore?

As for a good read on RAH, try reading his compilation "The Past Through Tomorrow". Some of the stories are a bit on the juvenile level but most aren't.

 

[Myles]

Red Planet still came off as very pro-gun, by simply having the protagonist carry one on a daily basis, with no fanfare about the politics behind it. It's also interesting to note how much gun-positive attitude he was able to slip into Between Planets, another one of his juvenile books.

 

[Claude Clay]

. It is truly the mark of an educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Heinlein was a master at this.

and i started reading him in the early 60's. his 'what if's' influenced me throughout my formative years.

Philip K. Dick is another author needs close reading. but im sure we have all seen at least a hand full of his more than 17 movies.

 

[nalioth]

Philip K. Dick is another author needs close reading. but im sure we have all seen at least a hand full of his more than 17 movies.

Movies - like Heinlein's "Starship Troopers" - that bear little relationship to the books.

 

[RimfireChris]

I've liked every book of his I've read. Some people harp on the semi-fascist nature of the gov't in Starship Troopers, but they're missing a point, in that anybody who wants to contribute CAN contribute. I believe the line goes something along the lines of "If you're blind and in a wheelchair and the only job you can do is counting the wool on a caterpiller, and you're bound and determined to do your duty, we HAVE to take you."

In one of his compilations I checked out of the library, he had a short treatise on living after limited nuclear war/societal collapse, I guess SHTF isn't as new as some think it is, eh?

 

[yeti]

I guess SHTF isn't as new as some think it is, eh?

Nope, it's been making the rounds since long before there were Fans for the S to Hit, even before old Noah became a yachtsman. If you look at it, Adam and Eve is an example of a TEOTWAWKI tale.