Questions for Robert Heinlein Fans

Status
Not open for further replies.
L

LooseGrouper

Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2005
Messages
225
First, sorry I misspelled the author's name. I tried to edit, but it won't let me edit the title. So much for my credibility :)

For anyone who has not read "Stranger in a Strange Land," please be aware that I will be discuss part of the plot. You may not want to read further.


So I picked up a copy of Robert Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land" a couple of days ago, owing in large part to the Heinlein signature quotes and book references I've come across on this board. I'm about halfway through and I'm definately picking up on the pro-Bill of Rights/anit-UN/liberatarian themes. I can't help but notice, however, that guns are treated strangely.

Jubal & cohorts own guns, but Jubal allows Smith to consider guns "wrong." During the experiment where Smith is to make things disappear, he has to be convinced that the box is going to cause harm before he makes it disappear. In contrast, he learns that guns are "wrong" in general and due in part to this "wrongness" he dispatches multiple Gestapo-type agents even though they aren't physically threatening anyone. He even gets rid of their vehicles (which have guns mounted on them).

Since I'm not finished reading it yet, I suppose there could be some point in Smith's learning process where he learns to make a distinction between an inanimate object and its wielder's intentions. I'm not trying to take this book too seriously, and my world is not crumbling because of the contradiction. I'm just curious as to what my fellow gun enthusiasts think about it.

Any of you folks who are fans of Heinlein and his works care to comment?
 
DIdn't you answer your own question? Weapons wielded by (your words) "Gestapo" aren't inanimate objects anymore, are they? By definition they're being used for something, something not good...

Don't read too much into Stranger in a Strange Land. All it boils down to is letting go of society-imposed inhibitions. It's really not much deeper than that. It's a hippie handbook, literally...required reading for hippie movements. That's not a judgment, but an observation...you got a problem with hippies (a lot of people have knee jerk reactions to them), you may have a prob with the book...

if you're funnelling 'stranger' down to only one issue, its definately NOT gun control. it really doesnt have anything in it about it specifically. the standout thing is sex. though, even that is not the point of it all. its just the thing that makes an audience gasp enough to look at just how specific 'society's rules' are...mulitple out-of-marriage partners is as "evil" as "evil black rifles"...arbitrary. thats all that relly comes out of 'stranger'/
 
Actually, SIASL is a direct in-your-face challenge to sexual morality, established religion, and social standards across the board. It's a hoot if you know where he's coming from. The "wrongness" of the guns in the scene in question is more about the "wrongness" of the attitude/motivation of those wielding them. You'll find in other Heinlein books that he's more than solidly pro-RKBA.
 
I wouldn't read too much into it, just like I wouldn't read Starship Troopers and assume that Heinlein was a closet fascist. He was a writer, and wrote stories that had themes that were consistent with his central characters. While he may have had recurring themes, they most common ones were of personal responsibility, not a bad message at all.

As far as guns in Stranger in a Strange Land goes, I don't have a copy available right now so please excuse my paraphrasing, but doesn't Jubal make the point that the gun isn't "wrong" until it's pointed at Jill? After all he doesn't want Mike to "spoil meat" until it becomes necessary. Remember that he is trying to instruct a very powerful innocent in moral ambiguities, so that he can survive in the complicated world that he has been dropped into.

Tex
 
Ever notice that you have to type pretty quick in this forum to get in a word first? ;) How often have I posted a response to find that someone else has simultaneously posted the same response, making me sound like a pedantic idiot?

Tex
 
FWIW, in Tunnel in the Sky (I have forgotten the character names but basically a bunch of young folks are sent to an alien planet as a survival test/final exam type thing) the professor/mentor advises one of the young men to not take a firearm because it will make him feel like he can protect himself and therefore he will not be careful enough - or something to that effect.

Anyway, watch out for the stobor :uhoh:
 
FWIW, my top five Heinlein books, in alphabetical order (to save argument, since I can't rank them in order of quality - they're all equally good in different ways) would be:

Glory Road
Starship Troopers
The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress
The Number Of The Beast
Time Enough For Love
 
As Heinlein himself said, don't confuse the opinions of the character with those of the author.

But if you want an unabashed speech on RKBA, read the uncut version of Red Planet where you could carry a gun for protection against water seekers on your way to high school, but only after psychiatric evaluation. That drew a considerable rant against the permitting process.

Or consider Beyond This Horizon, where nearly everybody goes armed and where one of the most common internet tag lines "An armed society is a polite society." originated.

I prefer the original edition of Stranger. A good editor can help even a great writer.
 
To answer one question, I'm reading the unabridged version.

TexFire, to answer your question I broke out the book:
=========================
(conversation regarding a box)

"Can you make this go away?"

"This is a wrong thing and it must not be here?"

"Well, assume that it is."

"But--Jubal, I must KNOW that it is a wrong thing. This is a box. I do
not grok that it exists wrongly."

...Then Jill throws it at Jubal and Mike makes it disappear....

(a later "experiment" with a gun)

"But suppose a man pointed a gun at someone--or simply had it in his
hand. Suppose you did not want or need to kill him..but you needed to
make the gun go away. Could you do it?"

Mike paused only briefly. "I think I grok it. A gun is a wrong thing. But it
might be needful for the man to remain corporate." He thought. "I can
do it."

"Good. Mike, I am going to show you a gun. A gun is a wrong thing."

"A gun is a very wrong thing. I will make it go away."

...Jubal then raises the gun at Mike, who makes it go away...
===========================

See my point? It's seems like he is confusing the object with the intent.


BTW Sindawe, I laughed at that so hard that I suddenly became 90 degrees from everything.
 
Last edited:
""Good. Mike, I am going to show you a gun. A gun is a wrong thing."

"A gun is a very wrong thing. I will make it go away.""

Yup. For the purpose of Jubal's explanatory experiment, a gun is a bad thing.

But, it's conditional upon intent, as we've noted here at THR numerous times. Like any other tool, whether a hammer or a match.

Which, I guess, was part of Heinlein's view.

:), Art
 
In Beyond This Horizon, the hero Hamilton Felix carried a replica 1911 in a future era of energy weapons. Men carried them and dueled.

It is the book that gave us the famous:

'An armed society is polite society '

line.

However, that society was a genetically determined fascist one. It was not a nice place.
 
The definition of to Grock

To understand a thing in its fullness, the box was not a bad thing untill it was propelled toward I belive Jubal. The guns were used in a thretening context, so to Grock something must encompass the context of use/display in previous chapters Smith had encountered guns they were used in a detremental context so the injunction at the demonstration Smith Was told not to vanquish the gun if I remember the book correctly read it 30 years ago but got me hooked on RAH after that i read them all and his short stories too.
Guy
 
At times like this, a young man could hate all you guys. I haven't read all of RAH's work, but when I get time (IOW, when I am not reading some cursed college textbook) I want to read everything he wrote. Now I wanna toss some of my textbooks out a window, just to read some RAH. I think this is the best reason ever to abandon college, to read RAH. :evil:

Seriously though, SIASL was not one I liked. It seemed to me a softcore porn novel, though every other book of his I have read (BTH, and SST are two of them) have been spectacular reads. As Preacher noted, SIASL is sexual and moral, guns aren't more than props in this one.
 
I Agee

Stranger in a Strange land was not one of my favorites,though I did like it but it was the only SIFI book on and optional reading list in A High School Literature class, although a bit lengthy "Time Enough For Love" was my favorite but should not be read till later in your reading of RAH, In this one his recurrent character Lazarus Long is fully developed so most other books featuring this character should be read first, He is the speaker of 90% of the quotes you see used as tag lines.
Guy
 
TallPines,
The point he was trying to make was not an objection to being able to defend yourself.

The point was that the individual was liable to get cocky and start feeling invincible and take unreasonable risks because he was too dependant on a firearm.

I have used a reccomendation from that story when dispatching a troop to scout an area. Send them a close to naked as you can. It makes them more careful!

Sam
 
I always came away from Heinlein's works with the thought that guns were tools. He didn't seem to be a 'gun nut', but realized the value of firearms and his characters didn't hesitate to use them as tools, whether it be knives to small, shoulder-fired nukes. Starship Troopers was easily my favorite. :)

jmm
 
H'mmmm....

One of the sublter points in SIASL is that many forms of "wrongness" are social constructs and that not meddling in the peacable pursuit of happiness by responsible others might just be the highest good -- then again, that's just my opinion. Like Dorcas, I have no idea what color the sides of the house I cannot see are painted.

Where does this notion that "Starship Troopers" espouses fascism come from? From the lousy movie of the same title?
Sorry. Not the case. Juan Rico (the viewpoint chracter) does tell us that voting rights are conditional upon "national service," but he also points out that 90% of it does not involve military service. Additionally, one still cannot vote until one has left the service: career officers, for instance, will never vote until they retire! Perhaps it is the existence of corporal punishment in the society Heinlein describes, but that's hardly indiciative of "fascism," and could even be considered egalitarian: unlike a monetary fine, it does not impose a disproportionate burden on a poor man as compared to a rich man. It also saves government the cost and "crime college" effect of imprisonment. Much of the book takes place within various military units, which are manifestly neither republics nor democracies; they are naturally authoritarian and strictly disciplined, but this tells us nothing about civil society.

Last of all, the person who advises Rod Walker against carrying a gun on his survival test is that classic giver of advice, his big sister. Readers should bear in mind that Rod is a High Schoo Senior and his sister's the fictional equivalent of a Marine Special Ops type. She suggests to him that carrying a firearm -- something Rod does not routinely do and which appears to not be common in civil society on Earth at the time -- is likely to lead to overconfidence, especially for a person on his own. I believe she even comments that she might carry under similar circumstances, but that she has experience he lacks. (I could be wrong).

Heinlein was a complex fellow, whose own beliefs changed considerably over the course of his life. His primary purpose in writing wasn't to put across a political message or even to promote a way of approaching life; he always told those who asked that he wrote in order to pay the bills -- and that, if he was going to make any money at it, he had to write entertaining stories. He's been dead since 1988 and we're still talking about his books, so it's likely he managed to entertain.

--Herself
 
SomeKid

Seriously though, SIASL was not one I liked. It seemed to me a softcore porn novel, though every other book of his I have read (BTH, and SST are two of them) have been spectacular reads.
Click to expand...
Then don't even bother with To Sail Beyond The Sunset. If SISL strikes you as "soft core", TSBTS is pure XXX. :evil:

Don't hate us for having read more of Heinlein's than you have at the moment. We've just had more time to spend doing so than you have. You'll catch up eventually, since the master as long since put his pen down for the final time.
 
RAH ruined my life

I started reading Heinlien when I was around 11, I think and he is directly responsible for my tendency to question authority and my views of citizenship. Once every 3 or 4 years Farnhams Freehold, The Moon is a Harsh Mistresss, SIASL, and others in my collection are read again. I miss hunting the shelves for new books by him and John D. McDonald.
 
Crash, try H. Beam Piper, Viktor Koman, Michael Flynn, John Varley ("Red Thunder" especially) and C. J. Cherryh, if you miss RAH. If you'd like to try SF written by a gunnie (other than Mr. Piper!), look into L. Neil Smith's work.

JDMcD, alas, no replacement. Sue Grafton's "Kinsey Milhone" is kind of Travis McGee's seperated-at-birth kid sister in a series of yarns with alphabebet titles ("A Is For Alibi," etc.) but I don't know if a male would like her as well; she certainly doesn't share Travis's taste for the high life and there's no replacing Meyer. As well as his mysteries, he did some SF; nobody really writes SF in the manner of McDonald.

--Herself
 
Last edited:
Incidentally, SAIASL was Heinlein's least favorite book that he wrote. He was always horrified at it's success and the folks that it was popular with. He never really explained WHY he didn't like it, or why he wrote it if he was so unhappy with it, but he was pretty outspoken in his distaste for it. I had the opportunity to meet him and Virginia a few times, he really didn't like going to SF conventions but he was a big supporter of the Red Cross, and I lived near him, so we sometimes bumped into him at the Red Cross fundraisers.

His favorite book he wrote, and mine too, was The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress. Certainly one of the best books around. Having two kids in college has forced me to put my first edition, signed by both Bob and Virginia, up for sale, we'll see if anyone bites... Let's just say fair market value will pay one year of tuition for one of the kids.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

MoscowMike
  • Locked
Heinlein and Librarians
2 3
Replies
72
Views
4K
Avenger
A
C
  • Locked
works of Robert Heinlein
Replies
18
Views
940
Dave R
D
Justin
  • Locked
Parents try to ban Adlous Huxley and Robert Heinlein
2 3
Replies
68
Views
2K
cordex
C
M
  • Locked
Freehold, revisited
Replies
2
Views
924
madmike
M
F
  • Locked
My Robert Mika J-Frame Pocket Holster
2
Replies
31
Views
3K
jshmata
J
Back
Top