Hip/Pelvic area hits = "stopping" power?

[Loomis]

IF the bullet goes clear through the soft tissue and strikes the pelvic bone hard enough to break it, the BG will not be able to stand on his feet. You don't have to take out the actual hip socket or the ball on the top of the femur. If the pelvis itself is broke in two or more pieces, it will not hold up under body weight. And down he goes.

BTW, people often die days later from a broken pelvis, even without damage to surrounding soft tissue.

 

[KBintheSLC]

I have no real life experience on either end of this question, but I assume it might stop them from advancing towards you. However, if they have a gun too, I doubt it would stop them from firing back on you.

A shot to the pelvic area might hinder mobility, cause shocking pain, and even kill your BG over time, but I doubt it would instantly take them out of the fight... especially if they are railed up on some random powdered substances.

Afterall, if stopping power is the name of the game, we need to strike in such a way that the enemy cannot immediately retaliate. If the situation calls for deadly force, I would try to give out nothing short of that.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

In order to actually, physically stop someone with a pelvic shot, you would have to actually break or shatter the pelvis or hip joint. I doubt if most handgun cartridges would do that. Even if you do and he collapses to the ground like a marionette puppet whose strings have been cut, there may still be some fight left in him.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Ha..thought of that, but, he was not just shot in the torso either. I guess it would have been better proof had he been shot in the pelvis first or 2nd or 3rd or 4th to make it a more convincing example.

HP's:
1st shot of .38 to his forearm (obliterating the tissue)
2 shots of .38 in the chest
1 shot of .38 point blank to the side of the torso
1 shot of .38 to the solar plexus

1 shot of .38 to the top of the head (near contact distance) --1st time BG went down...and got up to fight some more.

2 shots of .38 again to the chest
1 shot again of .38 to the abdomen
1 shot to the pelvis of .38 to the pelvis shattering it.--went down again and stayed down but still 'alive'.

I would think it's similar to shattering load bearing beams in one's house, then have them put under additional stresses to see how long it takes for it to collapse under its own weight.

Good. Where was the pelvis shot? We don't know. What shattered? We don't know. Where was the shot aimed? We don't know. Yes, it can happen, but intentionally making it happen in another story, especially with a handgun.

IF the bullet goes clear through the soft tissue and strikes the pelvic bone hard enough to break it, the BG will not be able to stand on his feet. You don't have to take out the actual hip socket or the ball on the top of the femur. If the pelvis itself is broke in two or more pieces, it will not hold up under body weight. And down he goes.

Not necessarily. You need to break the girdle, a structural collapse of the girdle, to make the person unable to stand on their feet. The iliac blade can lose chunks of bone (hence is 'broken') and still not fully break and hence the girdle itself remains intact and there is no structural collapse.

For example, you could end up with something like a Malgaigne fracture (vertical shear) of the anterior portion of the ilium (the portion of the 'hip bone' you feel at the entry of your front jeans pocket). You end up with a fracture, even complete separation, but no girdle failure. Note that when folks are taught to aim for the 'hips' in order to break, shatter the pelvis, they are often taught to aim in that area. They are taught this, in part, because firearms instructors don't understand the anatomy. They can tell students to feel for the bone (and the students do - I have been in those classes) so that they know where to aim. It is also a fairly large target (hence easier to hit). The problem is that the ilium can take the most damage and still keep the girdle intact and so of all the places to strike the pelvis itself, the ilium, specifically sections of the iliac blade, aren't ideal for producing the intended result being taught to students.

For those of you attending pistol classes in the near future and who have an instructor tell you to shoot the pelvis to break or shatter it in order to cause a cessation of mobility, ask the instructor to explain to you what part of the pelvis needs to be shot in order to accomplish this goal and what sort of damage will result. If they can explain to you the biomechanics and trauma mechanics of what can be accomplished, GOOD. Then have the instructor tell you where you need to aim on a clothed person (since most people who you are likely to battle will be clothed) to get that desired result.

BTW, people often die days later from a broken pelvis, even without damage to surrounding soft tissue.

Yes this can and it can happen with many types of fractures, especially those that go untreated, but that have exposed marrow to the blood stream. Note that the pelvis, especially the ilium and ischium, contain a large supply of marrow and are blood producers. Opening up the marrow to the blood via a break, can release marrow into the blood. The result can be embolisms that can result in death.

Of course those who break their pelvis but that have no other tissue damage are most likely going to be old folks with osteoporosis. Generally, they are already in declining health and so the injury results in all sorts of complications to their system, exacerbating other problems, increasing the speed of their decline until their systems fail under the stress.

 

[HM2PAC]

DN Spy,

Nice job explaining the morbidity associated with pelvic injuries.

It should be noted also that it is not necessarily the fractured bones that kill the human. It is the soft tissue injuries that coincide with the pelvic injury.

Most notably the Sacral Venous Plexus on the anterior wall of the sacrum. When the pelvic ring is pulled apart, these veins rupture. A human can lose their entire blood supply into the pelvis in a matter of minutes.

I have seen patients with pelvic fractures (Pubic symphysis, iliac wing, sacrum, hip joint fx's, etc...) able to walk.

I have seen patients with GSW to the pelvis, losing blood, needing tranfusions and surgery, walking, talking, and still causing problems for the police that brought them in.

 

[schnarrgj]

Having seen a number of GSW to the pelvis, unless the femoral head, or neck are broken or the acetabulum is destroyed, it does'nt work. I have seen a number of very nice neat holes in the ilium that did nothing to "drop or stop" the individual. If the pelvic girdle was collapsed as stated above, that would definately do it but is no easy task. It won't necessarily take the fight out of the BG but will definately end most mobility. I do know the anatomy and will use COM.

 

[Jim March]

I suspect that whether or not this reliably works depends on the horsepower of the round used. The 40S&W tops out around 500-550ft/lbs energy, which ought to be in the right ballpark. 357 can hit 800ft/lbs, 10mm very close to that, 41mag/44mag will spank those.

I don't think I'd try with a 38.

 

[Murdock]

I am an occupational therapist who performs orthopedic rehabilitation care for persons with a wide range of "bone issues." Surgeon's with whom I have been associated over the years have allowed me into the operating room many times for a number of patients over the years.

Watching surgeons work on living bone -- especially the pelvic bones and femur -- is an eye opener. Even the bones of the elderly require what are essentially carpenter's tools (very high quality drills, saws, mallets and chisels) to alter, remove and repair. The human body is a tough structure.

Center mass is the way to go with a handgun, followed by a head shot if CM fails due to body armor, frenzy, etc. There is just not enough power in a pistol or revolver cartridge to rely upon a pelvic shot to break bones and stop a threat.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I wouldn't rely on damage to the skeletal structure to stop an attacker.

Breaking the shoulders of a game animal is one thing. But you are taking a precisely aimed shot at an unsuspecting target, and you're doing it with a round that has much more reliably devastating terminal ballistics than a handgun cartridge. Also, when you shoot an animal through the front shoulders, it usually damages the heart and lungs.

On that note, bullets don't always perform the way they are designed and expected to. There are so many variables involved. I recently detailed some playtime in which we pitted a .50 BMG against a Honda Civic. Consider that, as a career mechanic, I know where to put a round in an automobile if I want to hit a certain component. The first ARMOR PIERCING round fired head-on from 70 yards at the STATIONARY target failed to cause sufficient damage for an engine kill. The odds that that bullet would strike a 5 inch long, 10mm diameter bolt dead center and travel along it's length were minimal-but it did. The car would have become very loud due to the hole in the exhaust manifold, and the A/C would have ceased to work, as the bullet ripped through the condenser and it's cooling fan motor. But this incredibly powerful round that was aimed precisely at a very lightly constructed automobile did not even cripple the primary functions of the vehicle.

Apply that same concept to defensive handguns and human bodies, and remember that more than 80% of handgun wounds are survivable.

As many bullets as you can put COM is your best bet in a defensive situation.

 

[cookekdjr]

My experience:

Murderer charges cop with knife, cop shoots murderer in abdomen/hip area w/.40 jhp (unknown brand and bullet weight). Murderer drops to the floor, hip shattered, immediately incapacitated, saved in the OR.

Murderer in robbery spree makes a habit of shooting vics in the butt with .357. Pelvis's and/or femurs shatter, rapid blood loss, vics fall down, everybody shot in the butt dies before EMS arrives.

Drug dealer shoots rival drug dealer in the butt with 9mm, shattering rival's femur. Rival falls to the ground, but returns fire with .45, killing drug dealer (head shot? can't remember).

Sure I had some other cases but can't remember more than that right now.

 

[Phil DeGraves]

The idea of a "reverse failure drill" is that if a bad guy is WEARING BODY ARMOR, the unprotected pelvic area is easier to hit than the head. If he is not wearing body armor, shots should be placed center of mass.

 

[AndyC]

I seem to recall back in the 80s, when this was en-vogue, that shooting to the pelvic-girdle was also a strategic choice and not just a tactical one ie. a post-shooting courtroom.

"No, I did not shoot with the intent to kill; I shot to stop the attack, which is why I shot him down there and not in the chest".

I'll leave you boys to hash the tactical merits of a pelvic shot; I just wanted to point out another reason for it.

 

[RustyShackelford]

The late Jim Cirello/NYPD-USCS/FLETC...

This is an interesting topic.
The late Jim Cirello(forgive my spelling, ), a former NYPD police officer and later a weapons/tactics trainer with what was US Customs and the FLETC( www.fletc.gov ), said in a gun magazine item years ago that a NYPD doctor advised his stakeout unit members to aim for the criminal's pelvis/lower torso.
Cirello wrote that the NYPD's doctor said it makes sense to stop a violent criminal from moving(true) and that the felon could be wearing body armor(also true).
Jim Cirello was involved in several NYPD shooting incidents and taught many sworn LEOs how to deal with shooting/use of force events. He was killed in a car accident a few years ago.

I would say the NYPD's medical advisor's input has merit but if a event requires full scale lethal force then you should shoot to kill the violent attacker(s). I'm not saying every incident may need that type of reaction and you should not use excessive force if the criminal(s) end their assault but you're immediate concern should be to stop the threat and protect yourself. A wounded subject may still be able to fight with you or shoot you!

Rusty

 

[moxie]

Interesting discussion. In my mind, the key point is this. Unless you are a lot cooler than the average person, when you are in a deadly force position, you're not going to do a lot of effective thinking about whether a pelvic, COM, or head shot is going to do the trick. Depending on how the BG is clothed, you likely also won't know whether body armor is a factor. Your vision (tunnel) and your hold (shaky) are also likely to be in such a degraded state that aiming at center mass is without doubt your best and maybe only chance of scoring a hit at all. Acquire the target, put the front sight on it (COM) and squeeze the trigger the best you can under the circumstances. That's the best, most probable, way to get a hit and you can't stop a guy unless you hit him.

 

[Kosh75287]

Okay, here I come, with minimal professional experience or academic qualification....

....I think it's reasonable to assume that a shot into the pelvic region is better than a miss, or even one into a limb. With minor caliber rounds, the wound would likely be more superficial than telling. With heavier rounds, say .357 Mag or almost anything above .40 caliber a pelvic hit might be quite disabling. Almost all of these rounds have (or CAN have) enough momentum to break even big bones, or drive deep into muscle, while transmitting a lot of mass moment to the target. That much energy is probably not going to be fully dissipated by tissues, so newton's 2nd law will probably dump the groin-shot creep on his fanny. Smaller caliber weapons may be as capable of wrecking bone as the bigger ones, but I remain dubious of their ability to "knock over" a BG unless bone is hit.

Is there a paramedic or an ER physician in the house?

 

[Phil DeGraves]

Depending on how the BG is clothed, you likely also won't know whether body armor is a factor.

The idea is that after putting several rounds COM and not having any effect, to assume that they are armored and now go for a PG shot. back in the Old West, and the Civil War, the doctrine of the day was to aim for the lower midsection because it would "take the fight out of them" to quote Wild Bill. Of course, the other reason is that with the big bore rifles of the day, the recoil would not result in a high miss, (although many soldiers did have high misses, but that was on purpose) and the lack of antibiotics at the time would result in a fatality, even if it wasn't immediate.

 

[Robert]

As of 2003 the Colorado State Patrol Academy was still teaching this as a response level, though one of last resort. As has been pointed out the COM shot is your best bet, but sometimes things tend to go a little pear shaped and you need to move on to something different. The head is a small, difficult target under the best of circumstances, let alone when you are stressed. And if pulled off, it is rather tough to walk with a shattered hip or pelvic bone.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Keep in mind that making the bad guy fall down is not the same as making the bad guy stop being bad. It is improving the situation, but not resolving it. Even if you go for center mass, or center brain, "down" doesn't always mean "out". Stay in the fight until the other guy is out of the fight. (This applies even if you are retreating.)

I once failed to heed that, and was almost shot in the back by a man I thought was dead. Fortunately, the soldier behind me saw him raise his weapon.

That is the basis for one of my Rules of Combat -- "Never step over a dead man."

 

[brickeyee]

... it is rather tough to walk with a shattered hip or pelvic bone.

It is also a small target and heavy bone.

It may not break even with a direct hit.

 

[p35]

I've told this story before, but a few years ago my brother had a classic hip fracture in a bicycle accident- I believe the "neck" of the hip joint.

He walked 2-3 blocks back to his office for help, where someone took him to the hospital. Was in for a week and had it pinned back together. May have been leaning on the bike for partial support.

If it had been a fight, there would have been a definite failure to stop.

 

[pps]

As a physical therapist I can attest to the fact that patients can and do walk (limp) to the clinic with various types of pelvic and or sacral fractures.

Though I would never set out to target the pelvic region, I would be happy to land a hit anywhere on the BG's body during a gun fight. If the pain inflicted from the shot to the pelvic region buys me enough time to stitch him from ******* to appetite, then that hit served a purpose.

 

[45ACPUSER]

Some of you guys just do not seem to grasp A and P concepts. Hitting femoral head is not the idea here! It is that the pelvic region is vary VASCULAR! Think about it? Aorta bifurcates into right and left femoral arteries! Do you realize the potential for bleeding out into your pelvic girdle? You guys need to review your anatomy, and other physiological manifestations.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Yes, but you haver to hit an artery to cause such bleeding. That's a smaller target than the heart and lungs.

If you were deer hunting, would you choose a pelvis shot over a heart and lung shot?

 

[pps]

45acper "Some of you guys just do not seem to grasp A and P concepts. Hitting femoral head is not the idea here! It is that the pelvic region is vary VASCULAR! Think about it? Aorta bifurcates into right and left femoral arteries! Do you realize the potential for bleeding out into your pelvic girdle? You guys need to review your anatomy, and other physiological manifestations."

With all due respect. If you are going to choose to aim for the femoral artery you are either a hell of a shot to purposefully hit that target in the heat of a gunfight on a moving target that is firing back at you, or you totally lack the understanding that there are shots that have a MUCH higher probability of hitting a vascular or CNS structure....center of mass, or a head shot. Even the brain is a larger target than the femoral artery..if you review your anatomy you will see that.

 

[Murdock]

With all due respect. If you are going to choose to aim for the femoral artery you are either a hell of a shot to purposefully hit that target in the heat of a gunfight on a moving target that is firing back at you, or you totally lack the understanding that there are shots that have a MUCH higher probability of hitting a vascular or CNS structure....center of mass, or a head shot. Even the brain is a larger target than the femoral artery..if you review your anatomy you will see that.

+1. Take the opportunity with the greatest chance of success first.